Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[Yemelyan]

True, there probably was a stressor. It is not the way to figure out who it was, though.

Any stress can be the precipitant, as stress usually causes insomnia, and insomnia itself can cause impulsive, or psychotic, behavior. But it is only the tip of the iceberg.

My theory is, it starts with imaginary world, and imaginary world has changed with the advent of the Internet. Before, people were writing diaries, stories, daydreaming, painting. Someone would see a troublesome writing (if anyone could see the diaries of the Columbine killers!) or a scary picture...

Now Internet has almost supplanted that old imaginary world. Gen Z is extremely visual. I don’t know if they “daydream” like the previous ones did, or if they just “see” it all online. I don’t know if blue light blockers could help, btw. I think Internet either gives rise to sadistic imagination, or merges with imaginary world, or something else.

My theory is, lots of people daydream, right? And some dreams can even be violent. But there is a moral line that defines what is “OK” and what is “NOT”, and also, the line defining dreams from reality. It is when that line slowly erodes, one day the imagination bursts into reality, merges with it.

But with the Internet, I think the process goes faster, or maybe, there is even no line. Because everything is so visual, maybe images become reality sooner?

ETA: what really interests me is why in some people (probably most teenagers have some erotic fantasies, and we don’t know what is in them) it never materializes, and in some, it breaks into unimaginable horror? What is the role of dissociation? If people feel almost “not themselves”, can they step over the line easier?

Also, about the “signatures”. It is probably something coming from the first time when it worked for them. A.S.’s cross was such a signature, but I doubt the cross came from the female jogger incident. Probably, from the Internet. Could the signatures be originating from the first time they got sexual release online? Can some of them be found online?

I think AS could also be consulted in the Delphi case.

Bolded by me.....no one said it was the way to figure out his identity. It was said that it is a component of the crime that will likely become apparent when he is interrogated or identified.

 

[Charlot123]

Bolded by me.....no one said it was the way to figure out his identity. It was said that it is a component of the crime that will likely become apparent when he is interrogated or identified.

Bolded by me.....no one said it was the way to figure out his identity. It was said that it is a component of the crime that will likely become apparent when he is interrogated or identified.

I understand. It makes sense in the context of why imagination merges with reality. I am now thinking about the signatures. Do you think they can form when people first get release on the internet? (Unless we don’t know when these people killed for the first time, as it may happen when they are way younger than we think?)

They are rigid, these killers, hence, the same patterns... This is why I wonder if Delphi case was not that of SK, because TL mentioned “a twist”. “Twists” are not typical for them. I view them as obsessive and perfectionistic.

 

[Ozoner]

Maybe. So an FBI profiler (I hope) believes the predisposing factor for Austin Sigg was fear of being sent to the treatment center after the attack on the jogger.

OK. Probably. But something made him attack the jogger, right? An adult woman who managed to escape and hence, he decided to switch over to kids.

So what was the precipitating factor for that, first, attack? Does anyone know?

I think that while there may be events in AS life, looking at them from our normal position, divorce, loss of job, stress - leads us nowhere.

I think it comes from years of imaginary world, that becomes sadistic (probably Internet “helps”). And then this sadistic world grows on the real one, till one day, there is no boundary anymore.

(My family is always surprised by Steve Paddock. He had everything, right? A rich guy, a nice GF, what went wrong? No precipitating events, unless he lost everything in a casino, but doubtful, he had tons of property and seemed to have the guts to win. Genes, right? Out of five kids of his father, one got the combination that made him a criminal).

here; I think, “the usual” type plus untreated bipolar, but pay attention to child abuse on his disk. Las Vegas shooting: gunman was on losing streak and 'germophobic', police say | Las Vegas shooting | The Guardian

ETA: I read as many articles as i could about Paddock’s wins and losses, and seems he was in a regular statistical situation (won millions, but overall, ended with about 400K loss in 2015, for which he got compensations in the form of perks; it seems normal for a gambler, from what other gamblers told me; his property cost way more, though, so, not a poor man at all). My only explanation is, since he got most of his “highs’’ from the casino, a hypomanic episode created an urge for more “highs”, that he decided to get in the casino as well since it was his life. I think he probably did not get into child abuse because this where he somehow, morally, still drew the line; had he lived, that line would have eroded with time, too.

When I read details about Paddock around the time of the massacre, I remember thinking that he was probably on the autism spectrum. BG is just your garden variety psychopath.

 

[Charlot123]

When I read details about Paddock around the time of the massacre, I remember thinking that he was probably on the autism spectrum. BG is just your garden variety psychopath.

I am trying to avoid the spectrum part because sadly, many of our criminals might have some traits, and at the same time, most people on the spectrum are the opposite. Philanthropic, and kind, and mild. But you are right, of course, about Paddock. However, nothing pushed him to do what he did at his age. Life was not unkind to him, either.

I have zero clue who BG is. I wish I did.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

I understand. It makes sense in the context of why imagination merges with reality. I am now thinking about the signatures. Do you think they can form when people first get release on the internet? (Unless we don’t know when these people killed for the first time, as it may happen when they are way younger than we think?)

They are rigid, these killers, hence, the same patterns... This is why I wonder if Delphi case was not that of SK, because TL mentioned “a twist”. “Twists” are not typical for them. I view them as obsessive and perfectionistic.

Yes, I agree.( Graphic conversation follows, please forgive me.) Interestingly though, the “twist “might also be “their thing.” For example, displaying the corpses in lewd poses could be the twist. It could also be what the murderer/sexual sadist does to achieve his excitement/sexual fulfillment.And because to the detectives it is a weird shocking aspect to the murders, they call it the twist.
I once interviewed a homicide detective In Kansas City about sex crimes resulting in murder. He said, sex criminals are the only criminals who even when they know the detectives are hot on their trail, can not change their MO. Why not? I asked. No one changes their sexual orientation, he replied. What turns you on, turns you on. In my case, when I was young I liked tall dark blue eyed smart men. Could I suddenly like girls? No. So the murderers are very rigid. But, imho, part of their rigid fantasy could be considered a “twist” to the homicide detectives because it is so freakishly unusual.

 

[sunshineray]

I understand. It makes sense in the context of why imagination merges with reality. I am now thinking about the signatures. Do you think they can form when people first get release on the internet? (Unless we don’t know when these people killed for the first time, as it may happen when they are way younger than we think?)

They are rigid, these killers, hence, the same patterns... This is why I wonder if Delphi case was not that of SK, because TL mentioned “a twist”. “Twists” are not typical for them. I view them as obsessive and perfectionistic.

I think TL was talking about there being audio and video of the suspected killer, that's the twist. His behavior wasn't TL's "twist", his being recorded was...IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I think TL was talking about there being audio and video of the suspected killer, that's the twist. His behavior wasn't TL's "twist", his being recorded was...IMO

That’s what I think he was referring to as well, That’s a huge twist, for a victim to surreptitiously video the suspect, apparently without his knowledge.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, I agree.( Graphic conversation follows, please forgive me.) Interestingly though, the “twist “might also be “their thing.” For example, displaying the corpses in lewd poses could be the twist. It could also be what the murderer/sexual sadist does to achieve his excitement/sexual fulfillment.And because to the detectives it is a weird shocking aspect to the murders, they call it the twist.
I once interviewed a homicide detective In Kansas City about sex crimes resulting in murder. He said, sex criminals are the only criminals who even when they know the detectives are hot on their trail, can not change their MO. Why not? I asked. No one changes their sexual orientation, he replied. What turns you on, turns you on. In my case, when I was young I liked tall dark blue eyed smart men. Could I suddenly like girls? No. So the murderers are very rigid. But, imho, part of their rigid fantasy could be considered a “twist” to the homicide detectives because it is so freakishly unusual.

Isn’t it sexual imprinting? - but I guess, some people are more flexible in this area, and some are less. These days, the words like, “no one can change his sexual orientation” might be relative in some cases. I don’t know if it is good or bad, but theoretically, flexibility in the area of imprinting is evolutionary advantageous as it could increase gene diversity.

What the homicide detective was trying to say was that probably, serial killers were extremely rigid in the area of their sexual imprinting? Yes, and I agree. High-IQ and “organized”, or low-IQ and disorganized, they are probably rigid in their MO.

But TL spoke about some “twist” and never explained what it was. My explanation is more complicated than audio or video. We need to see when exactly TL said it. And what was available at that time. I think it was something different, using someone to “create” the scene, maybe. Up to this day LE can’t tell if it was one person or two, one wonders how “twisted” the plot was.

ETA: I wonder if a study counting the number of kids SKs leave has ever been done. Is it less than usual, more, or average?

 

[MistyWaters]

<snipped to reply>
But TL spoke about some “twist” and never explained what it was. My explanation is more complicated than audio or video. We need to see when exactly TL said it. And what was available at that time. I think it was something different, using someone to “create” the scene, maybe. Up to this day LE can’t tell if it was one person or two, one wonders how “twisted” the plot was.

I don’t think it’s possible to crack the code without further explanation by Leazenby. JudgeJudi linked the video the quote is from here -
post #981
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

 

[StarryStarryNight]

We won’t know until they catch the killer whether he is seriously out of touch, or deeply mentally ill or just as mean as a snake. Everybody brings up interesting points but I tend to lean toward the least complicated scenarios. I just don’t think there was enough time, in difficult terrain, to come up with and execute a plan that includes multiple accomplices with specific tasks. Just my opinion.

 

[sleuth782]

Hi all,

Just was reading the thread about the Flora fires and had a bit of a revelation remembering another event that happened. Could it be these 3 things are connected?

(1) Nov. 2016 - fire in Flora (very near Delphi) kills 4 young girls. Listed as arson.

(2) Feb. 2017 - Libby and Abby (young girls) killed via different manner, after entering trails from trailhead near old CPS building. (Also of note...interest in a car parked near there, IIRC.)

If (1) and (2) connected, it is suggestive that the target (young girls) is more important than the MO.

(3) - fire at the old CPS building. (Anyone have more details on that? When did it burn and was arson suspected or confirmed?)

CPS officials sometimes make some painful decisions about separating children from their parents.

Could it be revenge for taking away someone's daughter(s)?

I've seen some suggest a connection between 2 of the 3 items above. But all 3 together puts together a more complete story.

 

[sleuth782]

Hi all,

Just was reading the thread about the Flora fires and had a bit of a revelation remembering another event that happened. Could it be these 3 things are connected?

(1) Nov. 2016 - fire in Flora (very near Delphi) kills 4 young girls. Listed as arson.

(2) Feb. 2017 - Libby and Abby (young girls) killed via different manner, after entering trails from trailhead near old CPS building. (Also of note...interest in a car parked near there, IIRC.)

If (1) and (2) connected, it is suggestive that the target (young girls) is more important than the MO.

(3) - fire at the old CPS building. (Anyone have more details on that? When did it burn and was arson suspected or confirmed?)

CPS officials sometimes make some painful decisions about separating children from their parents.

Could it be revenge for taking away someone's daughter(s)?

I've seen some suggest a connection between 2 of the 3 items above. But all 3 together puts together a more complete story.

I'm probably hyperanalyzing things, but the old CPS building, Flora arson location, and (estimated) location of the crime scene near the creek are almost in exact linear alignment. Image attached. Almost certainly coincidental, but figured I'd toss it out there anyway.

 

[MistyWaters]

Hi all,

Just was reading the thread about the Flora fires and had a bit of a revelation remembering another event that happened. Could it be these 3 things are connected?

(1) Nov. 2016 - fire in Flora (very near Delphi) kills 4 young girls. Listed as arson.

(2) Feb. 2017 - Libby and Abby (young girls) killed via different manner, after entering trails from trailhead near old CPS building. (Also of note...interest in a car parked near there, IIRC.)

If (1) and (2) connected, it is suggestive that the target (young girls) is more important than the MO.

(3) - fire at the old CPS building. (Anyone have more details on that? When did it burn and was arson suspected or confirmed?)

CPS officials sometimes make some painful decisions about separating children from their parents.

Could it be revenge for taking away someone's daughter(s)?

I've seen some suggest a connection between 2 of the 3 items above. But all 3 together puts together a more complete story.

I don’t recall reading there was a fire at the old CPS building. This article below says it was intended to be demolished. Often buildings of that era contain asbestos insulation and it costs more to remove it than the building is worth.

As promised… | Carroll County Comet
“INDOT indicated last winter it planned to demolish the old social services building near The Andersons and the Freedom Bridge across the Hoosier Heartland Highway near Delphi...

......As promised, INDOT demolished the building Tuesday, July 31.”

 

[sleuth782]

I don’t recall reading there was a fire at the old CPS building. This article below says it was intended to be demolished. Often buildings of that era contain asbestos insulation and it costs more to remove it than the building is worth.

As promised… | Carroll County Comet
“INDOT indicated last winter it planned to demolish the old social services building near The Andersons and the Freedom Bridge across the Hoosier Heartland Highway near Delphi...

......As promised, INDOT demolished the building Tuesday, July 31.”

You might be right. Perhaps it had just been abandoned and demolished, and my mind (incorrectly) mentally inserted that fire was the reason for that, even though there wasn't one. If it were not a fire, then the nexus to the CPS building isn't as strong.

Nonetheless, both crimes with similar targets in a similar place in a similar time period is still suspect. And it's not like Carroll County has 20 million people; the county population is around 20,000.

Another common thread --- and again, probably inconsequential --- between Flora and Delphi is each of the crimes happened near (~200 yards) from current or past railroad tracks. There is a historic case (early 20th century), though, of a SK along the railroad tracks. (Or at least a more recent book suggests that was the case.)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think TL was talking about there being audio and video of the suspected killer, that's the twist. His behavior wasn't TL's "twist", his being recorded was...IMO

I don't think so, but something they found/saw at the crime scene, which contradicted each other in a certain way. MOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes, I agree.( Graphic conversation follows, please forgive me.) Interestingly though, the “twist “might also be “their thing.” For example, displaying the corpses in lewd poses could be the twist. It could also be what the murderer/sexual sadist does to achieve his excitement/sexual fulfillment.And because to the detectives it is a weird shocking aspect to the murders, they call it the twist.
I once interviewed a homicide detective In Kansas City about sex crimes resulting in murder. He said, sex criminals are the only criminals who even when they know the detectives are hot on their trail, can not change their MO. Why not? I asked. No one changes their sexual orientation, he replied. What turns you on, turns you on. In my case, when I was young I liked tall dark blue eyed smart men. Could I suddenly like girls? No. So the murderers are very rigid. But, imho, part of their rigid fantasy could be considered a “twist” to the homicide detectives because it is so freakishly unusual.

bbm
I'm thinking in case Abby/Libby:
If a killer kills for a motive, he doesn't want anybody to know, because it would meet with incomprehension much more than every other motive, the (smart!) killer could choose a manner of doing the murder, that is pointing to false motivation/reasons. The killer can possibly "enjoy" his thrill-kill without having sexual motivation, but he stages the scene like there had been sexual motivation, like an artist, who is arranging a still life so-to-say or a gamer, who plays a strategy game. Well, that the killer has low esteem for the female sex, he can't deny, if his victims are always girls/women. But that he has no real sexual interest, he can cover up. It would lead police/analysts in a wrong direction over months/years. If the killer has a girlfriend/fiancee/wife, it would be another aspect, not getting onto the police/FBI poi-list very fast.
Or do you all here think, that isn't makeable, that there was no real sexual motivation, if it looked like that at the crime scene?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

There will likely be some sort of stressor (job loss, bankruptcy, impending eviction, breakup) that popped up in BG's life immediately prior to the attack on Abby and Libby, especially if it was his first murder.

What, if there was something very decisive immediately prior, but it wasn't his first murder? Would one speculate, that before his murders (IF more than the 2 in Delphi) always an incident must have had happened?

 

[JDough]

Great post. I agree he is no mastermind with his *advertiser censored* erectus level of frontal lobe development. He would be more focused on hunting and avoiding being hunted. More base instincts; a troglodyte. I am unshakable in my belief that he 100% knew RL"s schedule that day, and that is the link that will solve this case.

Amateur opinion and speculation

BBM ^
Very interesting concept, Rose. Is it your belief BG may have been a visitor or house guest of RL on the day of the murders? This certainly would give BG knowledge that RL would be away from home for a period of time.

 

[rosesfromangels]

BBM ^
Very interesting concept, Rose. Is it your belief BG may have been a visitor or house guest of RL on the day of the murders? This certainly would give BG knowledge that RL would be away from home for a period of time.

Not a house guest, that would be too obvious, but connected to that property or the vacant property in some way.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Yemelyan]

What, if there was something very decisive immediately prior, but it wasn't his first murder? Would one speculate, that before his murders (IF more than the 2 in Delphi) always an incident must have had happened?

Possibly....but the FBI says (in their document Investigative Pathways) that the stressor is most often seen before the FIRST murder in a series. I would liken it to needing a push before you jump from one type of behavior (fantasy or stalking) to another (murder). The stressor (whether that's conflict with wife or parents, etc) is that push.

Now, this is for those murders that fit the usual serial pattern, where there is sexual motivation. If you think the girls were killed because someone got mad at them for laughing or because they knew a secret or something, this pattern of behavior is not going to hold true.