Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[MistyWaters]

I think it is makeable.

Let us think of a real-life twist.

Imagine a child of a SK who was never caught but who’d sometimes take his son on his rampages because ...they do it (see Gary Ridgeway). Assuming the kid was young, asleep, an alibi.

Now the kid has grown up and himself, does not get the high from the kills. Maybe he gets his kicks from young women, or has to use paid sex, because he’s married, but from kills, no. But suddenly he feels he needs to kill to eliminate the witness, and the witness is a teenager. Won’t he stage it like he saw his father (long dead now, and never caught) do?

Just one of many scenarios. If he witnessed someone enjoying thrill kill, he knows how to reconstruct it. And if indeed it was an older man who was never caught but had different signatures, seeing them again might make police go nuts trying to explain things.

How could LE have known way back then ‘the twist’ was the killer was the son, a copycat of his father who was a SK? That just seems farfetched to me, given for more than 3 years LE has repeatedly asked for tips to assist them in identifying the suspect.

I just can’t believe the purpose for anything LE has ever said is to feed the imagination of the general public by dropping us vague clues about the identity of the killer or details of their tragic deaths, somewhat resembling that of a murder-mystery dinner theatre. Furthermore I feel very strongly such a clue-dropping scenario in order to inspire speculation by the general public would be utterly and despicably disrespectful to the two victims, Abby and Libby. I don’t believe LE’s intention is for that, in fact they’ve discouraged it. IMO.

 

[Spartygirl]

I have seen a few comments about why the girls didn't scream or with all those kids out there, why nobody heard them.
We don't know for sure if they screamed, LE has never commented about that.
Also, KG mentioned in above podcast, DTH EP 6- that where the girls were found, nobody would have heard them if they did yell or scream.
JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I have seen a few comments about why the girls didn't scream or with all those kids out there, why nobody heard them.
We don't know for sure if they screamed, LE has never commented about that.
Also, KG mentioned in above podcast, DTH EP 6- that where the girls were found, nobody would have heard them if they did yell or scream.
JMO

Libby’s grandmother stated during the 1st public interview on Dr Phil there happened to be a lull of trail walkers at the time the girls were there. This was also the stated reason why nobody saw them walking on the trails. I don’t have a source but way back in the threads at the time, around Dec/17, this was discussed.

Even if they screamed, hollered, or if gunshots were heard by somebody far in the distance that same afternoon, such things do not always cause alarm by others, mostly because it’s human nature to not immediately associate such sounds to only violence or murder in an area otherwise considered safe. It’s also not entirely unheard of for people to second guess themselves, if they really did hear what they though they heard.

JMO

 

[rosesfromangels]

I have seen a few comments about why the girls didn't scream or with all those kids out there, why nobody heard them.
We don't know for sure if they screamed, LE has never commented about that.
Also, KG mentioned in above podcast, DTH EP 6- that where the girls were found, nobody would have heard them if they did yell or scream.
JMO

Well he chose his spot “down the hill” well, didn’t he. Now why did he know so much about the acoustics there?


Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MistyWaters]

Well he chose his spot “down the hill” well, didn’t he. Now why did he know so much about the acoustics there?


Amateur opinion and speculation

Was it acoustics or the fact from the end of the bridge “down the hill” the killer was in a vantage point location that also provided long range visibility in all directions, up the steep bank toward the cemetery or up towards RLs home, or of anyone walking across the bridge. Therefore nobody could’ve suddenly appeared taking the killer by surprise without giving him an opportunity to escape. If it’s true, as ISP has stated, the murders occurred within minutes of the video, even if he lingered by then he’d know nobody witnessed the murders just by the fact he created no attention. JMO

 

[SMK777]

I think it is makeable.

Let us think of a real-life twist.

Imagine a child of a SK who was never caught but who’d sometimes take his son on his rampages because ...they do it (see Gary Ridgeway). Assuming the kid was young, asleep, an alibi.

Now the kid has grown up and himself, does not get the high from the kills. Maybe he gets his kicks from young women, or has to use paid sex, because he’s married, but from kills, no. But suddenly he feels he needs to kill to eliminate the witness, and the witness is a teenager. Won’t he stage it like he saw his father (long dead now, and never caught) do?

Just one of many scenarios. If he witnessed someone enjoying thrill kill, he knows how to reconstruct it. And if indeed it was an older man who was never caught but had different signatures, seeing them again might make police go nuts trying to explain things.

There have indeed been cases where the scene is staged to make it look as if it was a sexual crime, in order to cover up the true reason for the crime.

I recall during the Amanda Knox case, on the part of those who believed her to be guilty, there were theories proposed that the victim was killed out of anger, but the scene was made to look as if rape were the motive.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Was it acoustics or the fact from the end of the bridge “down the hill” the killer was in a vantage point location that also provided long range visibility in all directions, up the steep bank toward the cemetery or up towards RLs home, or of anyone walking across the bridge. Therefore nobody could’ve suddenly appeared taking the killer by surprise without giving him an opportunity to escape. If it’s true, as ISP has stated, the murders occurred within minutes of the video, even if he lingered by then he’d know nobody witnessed the murders just by the fact he created no attention. JMO

Still too risky, despite risky being part of the "thrill". I wonder if he had an accomplice stalling people on the bridge or deflecting attention. I supposed that would have been noteworthy...is that where the second sketch came from?

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MistyWaters]

Still too risky, despite risky being part of the "thrill". I wonder if he had an accomplice stalling people on the bridge or deflecting attention. I supposed that would have been noteworthy...is that where the second sketch came from?

Amateur opinion and speculation

Yeah I don’t know but I’d think it’d be unlikely preplanning to that extent took place in advance - to know RL drove to the dump and how long he’d be gone, to anticipate young victims would be arriving to cross over the bridge, to have assistance to ensure nobody was walking along the trails without drawing undue attention. That’s a lot of variables to sync together, more common I’d think if the target was a certain victim, rather than random.

Two factors involved in random murders of strangers are said to be location and opportunity. The location afforded the killer the awareness nobody was around, the girls alone on the bridge became the opportunity, much the same as why lone women out jogging has become known as a somewhat unsafe activity. JMO

 

[Spartygirl]

Well he chose his spot “down the hill” well, didn’t he. Now why did he know so much about the acoustics there?


Amateur opinion and speculation

EXACTLY !!!!

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yeah I don’t know but I’d think it’d be unlikely preplanning to that extent took place in advance - to know RL drove to the dump and how long he’d be gone, to anticipate young victims would be arriving to cross over the bridge, to have assistance to ensure nobody was walking along the trails without drawing undue attention. That’s a lot of variables to sync together, more common I’d think if the target was a certain victim, rather than random.

Two factors involved in random murders of strangers are said to be location and opportunity. The location afforded the killer the awareness nobody was around, the girls alone on the bridge became the opportunity, much the same as why lone women out jogging has become known as a somewhat unsafe activity. JMO

All good points. I still can't seem to let go of this niggling question of whether this Perp was connected to one of the adjacent properties in some manner. Then of course we have the cemetery close by, which can attract some strange visitors/lurkers., in addition to legitimate guests paying their respects.

I'm just circling around in my mind about what significance the location had, if any. I know many of you believe this is all random and a crime of opportunity. Statistics would tend to agree with you.

Aside from the proximity to the cemetery, do we know if that particular location is an "anchor" for anything or is known for a specific purpose? Is it known to be a good location to spot deer, see a particular type of wildlife or nesting bird, or tree fog, or? What is unique about this spot? Is it a surveyors landmark, or?

This could very well just end up being a hidden spot that served the Perp's murderous intent, but I'm still trying to find a thread we can pull.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[cujenn81]

Libby’s grandmother stated during the 1st public interview on Dr Phil there happened to be a lull of trail walkers at the time the girls were there. This was also the stated reason why nobody saw them walking on the trails. I don’t have a source but way back in the threads at the time, around Dec/17, this was discussed.

Even if they screamed, hollered, or if gunshots were heard by somebody far in the distance that same afternoon, such things do not always cause alarm by others, mostly because it’s human nature to not immediately associate such sounds to only violence or murder in an area otherwise considered safe. It’s also not entirely unheard of for people to second guess themselves, if they really did hear what they though they heard.

JMO

This is too true.

I live a block away from a popular beach and hear girls screaming nearly everyday. Sometimes they scream at their parents because they don’t want to go home. Sometimes they scream out of sheer excitement while playing with their friends. It’s such a common occurrence in my neighborhood that I’ve kinda learned to block it out. I do sometimes worry about how easily a true scream of danger could be dismissed or ignored.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Yeah I don’t know but I’d think it’d be unlikely preplanning to that extent took place in advance - to know RL drove to the dump and how long he’d be gone, to anticipate young victims would be arriving to cross over the bridge, to have assistance to ensure nobody was walking along the trails without drawing undue attention. That’s a lot of variables to sync together, more common I’d think if the target was a certain victim, rather than random.

Two factors involved in random murders of strangers are said to be location and opportunity. The location afforded the killer the awareness nobody was around, the girls alone on the bridge became the opportunity, much the same as why lone women out jogging has become known as a somewhat unsafe activity. JMO

Yes! Yes! Yes! I one hundred percent agree!
Your last paragraph distills this case down to the most important elements in my opinion. Location and opportunity.

 

[JnRyan]

I have seen a few comments about why the girls didn't scream or with all those kids out there, why nobody heard them.
We don't know for sure if they screamed, LE has never commented about that.
Also, KG mentioned in above podcast, DTH EP 6- that where the girls were found, nobody would have heard them if they did yell or scream.
JMO

One YouTuber, Anthony Greeno, did a series of reenactments and in one was an experiment of a woman screaming down near the creek and she could be heard on the trail near the north end of the bridge by the other members of the crew.

 

[JnRyan]

Here’s a reference -

Delphi: Logan pleads guilty to traffic violation
“Logan admitted to driving on a suspended license to the Carroll County Transfer Station on February 13, the day Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, went missing. He also admitted to drinking an alcoholic beverage at Pizza King in Americus on February 27.“

If RL's drivers license was suspended chances are he wasn't risking much driving. If this killer knew of RL, he would know how unlikely it would be that RL would be away from his property. Even if he didn't know RL, but watched him RL likely didn't leave very often. The possibility that this killer planned this because RL was away seems very unlikely due to that suspended license. I believe the fact that RL wasn't there that day was just dumb luck for the killer.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is too true.

I live a block away from a popular beach and hear girls screaming nearly everyday. Sometimes they scream at their parents because they don’t want to go home. Sometimes they scream out of sheer excitement while playing with their friends. It’s such a common occurrence in my neighborhood that I’ve kinda learned to block it out. I do sometimes worry about how easily a true scream of danger could be dismissed or ignored.

I can attest to the mind tuning out sounds. One evening I thought I heard the sound of breaking glass somewhere outside but when I looked out my front window, nothing looked out of sorts. So I decided I was imagining things, must’ve been a vehicle skidding on the grit the town used on the street to deal with ice buildup in the winter. The following day I noticed a broken window on the front of my neighbours unoccupied house. The house had been broken into during the night and ransacked, including a TV thrown out an upper story window. That was the sound of breaking glass I heard.

The police officer told me it’s very common, when hearing unusual, unexplained sounds for people to rationalize away so it fits within their normal, everyday experiences.

I can’t recall any homicides that were thwarted or immediately discovered by others hearing sounds from a long distance away. More often the question is asked - why didn’t anybody hear anything? I think the answer is because the vast majority of us are neither experienced nor trained to immediately recognize the sounds of a murder occurring, especially if one is too far away to see the attack taking place. Or maybe it’s because the victims are too scared to make a lot of noise, thinking if they comply they’ll be left alive.
JMO

 

[Charlot123]

How could LE have known way back then ‘the twist’ was the killer was the son, a copycat of his father who was a SK? That just seems farfetched to me, given for more than 3 years LE has repeatedly asked for tips to assist them in identifying the suspect.

I just can’t believe the purpose for anything LE has ever said is to feed the imagination of the general public by dropping us vague clues about the identity of the killer or details of their tragic deaths, somewhat resembling that of a murder-mystery dinner theatre. Furthermore I feel very strongly such a clue-dropping scenario in order to inspire speculation by the general public would be utterly and despicably disrespectful to the two victims, Abby and Libby. I don’t believe LE’s intention is for that, in fact they’ve discouraged it. IMO.

My scenario was (one) of the versions when the killer is not a SK, and doesn’t kill for the sexual gratification, nor thrill. The (extreme) case of it being the son of SK, IRL, is unlikely. I drew it in lieu of many other (more likely) situations where the perpetrator could have observed some cases of murder with elements of sexual gratification, which he later could have recreated.

The truth is, the motive remains open. LE is silent. In this situation, the versions “the girls were killed by a SK” and “the girls were killed because they witnessed something” are equal (I am not repeating rumors, all these versions were discussed on WS).

To me, the real twist would be if they were killed by someone pretending to be a SK. This case is ...very tortuous. Nothing is what it appears to be.

 

[sunshineray]

All good points. I still can't seem to let go of this niggling question of whether this Perp was connected to one of the adjacent properties in some manner. Then of course we have the cemetery close by, which can attract some strange visitors/lurkers., in addition to legitimate guests paying their respects.

I'm just circling around in my mind about what significance the location had, if any. I know many of you believe this is all random and a crime of opportunity. Statistics would tend to agree with you.

Aside from the proximity to the cemetery, do we know if that particular location is an "anchor" for anything or is known for a specific purpose? Is it known to be a good location to spot deer, see a particular type of wildlife or nesting bird, or tree fog, or? What is unique about this spot? Is it a surveyors landmark, or?

This could very well just end up being a hidden spot that served the Perp's murderous intent, but I'm still trying to find a thread we can pull.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I think it's the high bridge. I fairly mundane and normal hiking trail system with a bit of local danger and an area to hang out.

When I was a kid there was a spot off a rural road, on an access dirt road, through some woods right next to where a new connecting highway was being built. Loads of kids, a new closed road section in the sticks to drag race on...the spot. I think maybe Monon High Bridge area of the trails is a "spot" also.

 

[somequestions]

Yes, I agree.( Graphic conversation follows, please forgive me.) Interestingly though, the “twist “might also be “their thing.” For example, displaying the corpses in lewd poses could be the twist. It could also be what the murderer/sexual sadist does to achieve his excitement/sexual fulfillment.And because to the detectives it is a weird shocking aspect to the murders, they call it the twist.
I once interviewed a homicide detective In Kansas City about sex crimes resulting in murder. He said, sex criminals are the only criminals who even when they know the detectives are hot on their trail, can not change their MO. Why not? I asked. No one changes their sexual orientation, he replied. What turns you on, turns you on. In my case, when I was young I liked tall dark blue eyed smart men. Could I suddenly like girls? No. So the murderers are very rigid. But, imho, part of their rigid fantasy could be considered a “twist” to the homicide detectives because it is so freakishly unusual.

At the April 2019 press conference the references to how the girls were left in the woods and the spiritual movie references to good and evil made me think about some books I read in college. It gave me the impression that Abigail Williams and Liberty German were more than just murdered. They may have been violated in some way.

The ancient Greeks called it hubris. It has many forms, but in this case it could be that the killer found some sort of gratification in doing what he did. Or maybe the Superintendent is a religious person, and we are just overanalyzing everything that investigators have said about this case. All we can do is speculate about what investigators say concerning this case.

 

[Charlot123]

I can attest to the mind tuning out sounds. One evening I thought I heard the sound of breaking glass somewhere outside but when I looked out my front window, nothing looked out of sorts. So I decided I was imagining things, must’ve been a vehicle skidding on the grit the town used on the street to deal with ice buildup in the winter. The following day I noticed a broken window on the front of my neighbours unoccupied house. The house had been broken into during the night and ransacked, including a TV thrown out an upper story window. That was the sound of breaking glass I heard.

The police officer told me it’s very common, when hearing unusual, unexplained sounds for people to rationalize away so it fits within their normal, everyday experiences.

I can’t recall any homicides that were thwarted or immediately discovered by others hearing sounds from a long distance away. More often the question is asked - why didn’t anybody hear anything? I think the answer is because the vast majority of us are neither experienced nor trained to immediately recognize the sounds of a murder occurring, especially if one is too far away to see the attack taking place. Or maybe it’s because the victims are too scared to make a lot of noise, thinking if they comply they’ll be left alive.
JMO

Another possibility - people in the proximity of the bridge might have been minding own business and maybe scared, to call the police. Later, they could be ashamed to admit that they were scared.

 

[Charlot123]

I agree with you. Flexibility in imprinting is also interesting to me because it can show an almost unexplainable resilience from trauma, or the lack of resilience. ( I have PTSD from attacks, so I lack resilience.)
Imprinting can be as fascinating as it can be tragic.
Almost like ducklings following the first moving creature for the rest of their life, mistaking it for their mother;
One’s formative sexual experiences have been known to shape one’s life long sexual predilections. So should a father molest a child, the child might grow up to molest children to achieve sexual satisfaction. Horrific on so many levels, but particularly in this case, where the absolutely innocent children went to the trouble ,had the foresight, courage and wisdom, to record not just their murderer’s photographic video, but his voice as well. I hope to God their courage doing so results in an arrest.

I am very sorry that you were attacked, and even more sorry that you have PTSD. We don’t know why some people develop PTSD; in my opinion, it is not lack of resilience, it is the ability to be in contact with own feelings. Your feel your emotions; in ordinary life, it is a great quality, after an attack, it could cause more significant PTSD. But we are not wired to withstand what normal person should not go through, hence, PTSD is so common. MOO.

I, too, hope that the case will result in arrest. It has to.