Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[somequestions]

Since we were discussing the sketches in this case, here is an article about Trooper Taylor Bryant who created the younger looking sketch of BG. Very interesting to read about his process and training.

Meet the sketch artist who helps ISP catch bad guys

In my opinion, if investigators keep circulating that second sketch around, this case is not going to get solved because I think people are going to link that second sketch with the video from Liberty German's phone. I do not think the second sketch is even close to what this person on the bridge looks like. Getting people to focus only on the video and disregard the sketch is going to be difficult.

I guess we all think we know what this bridge guy looks like. It only goes to show you that despite this idea that all cases are solves with facts and hard evidence, there is still some subjectivity that goes into an investigation. People, in this case investigators, still need to decide what direction they will take in an investigation. They still need to decide what information is important and what is not.

 

[SMK777]

In my opinion, if investigators keep circulating that second sketch around, this case is not going to get solved because I think people are going to link that second sketch with the video from Liberty German's phone.

Did you mean to say aren’t?

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Thank you; and right back at ya!

I have no desire to derail the thread, but I would like to say a few words about what the families of Abby and Libby are experiencing; well, because I know (and some of you may too). Despite the fact my case began over 20 years ago, the thoughts, feelings and emotions remain the same. There are absolutely days of hopelessness. Overwhelming sadness, depression, anxiety, sleepless nights, anger, rage, fear, and so many, many more emotions that we experience on a daily basis. And yet, we members of this club we never wanted to be a part of always, always, always come back to believing justice will be served. We can't imagine that this won't happen- it keeps us sane in our moments of desperation.

The fear of wondering who this person is and why he hasn't been arrested is all-consuming at times. What if he wants to take another member of your family away from you? What if it is a family member? What important clue may I be missing, or have forgotten? Do I see and talk to this person? Does he know me personally and watch me suffer? And most importantly: WHY, WHY, WHY?

I know, without a doubt the families are very confused with the changes in the investigation. You can read and hear their reactions in the many personal interviews they have given. And yet, they still have hope the case will be solved. They still have a steadfast faith in the investigators- not an easy task. In honor of Abby and Libby, and in support of the family- I WILL NOT GIVE UP in believing right along with them. If they are reading here now, I want them to know how much the individuals in this thread will keep searching for answers. We'll keep watching for clues, we'll keep sharing their poster seeking tips, and most of all, we'll keep caring. We will continue to come back to this thread over and over again until justice is served. We will stand right beside you (even if it can't be in person).

Your time is coming, BG. Be prepared- someone is going to get the courage to come forward. And your life as you know it will be over. It's truly a shame you aren't man enough to turn yourself in. I guess DC may have been wrong about you having a smidgen of conscience left.

Thank you for bringing your personal story, compassion for the families, and words of hope to these threads.

You are truly a remarkable person to be doing what you do here at WS each day.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Liberty German's video will always be the truest description of the man on the bridge. Someone someday may come across her video while researching this case and realize that the person they see is someone they know from work, a family member, or an acquaintance. But this person will have to be able to disregard the two sketches released by LE and focus on the video.

Then that tip comes in and the police are able to connect the tip to a piece of physical evidence from the crimes. I only meant the case might go into the never going to get solved file if the police do not have DNA or some other type of hard physical evidence. We have already seen how many old cases have been solved by some link to old DNA evidence. I have never heard any firm confirmation that LE has DNA evidence in this case.

The irony in this case is that if those two sketches released are wrong, especially the second one, police may inadvertently be helping the killer in this case elude capture. The reason I believe this is because many people do NOT disregard what the police have to say because most of the time their information is good information. I think many people probably believe in the police and their second sketch. In this case, I think a lot of the information regarding sketches that was released is based on emotion and not on actual investigative evidence. It is information based on a presumption of wanting to solve the case so badly they were willing to put out another sketch and try and make people believe they were heading in a "new" direction with their investigation.

It is hard to predict the future as to what might happen with this case over time. As of today all anyone can do is hypothesize that the police are on the right track because most of the time they are in an investigation. But in my personal opinion, I think if the case is ever solved people are going to look back on it and realize, "Oh my goodness, what if she hadn't taken that video?!"

That is what I mean by this case possibly becoming a case study for other law enforcement agencies.

Quoted bbm

I took some time recently to refresh my memory on the details surrounding D.N.'s arrest and to see again all of the published reasons why LE took a hard look at him for the Delphi case and came across this article that has been posted here previously.

ISP says DNA evidence could give them answers on Daniel Nations in days

At this time, police are not calling Nations a suspect or even a person of interest in the Delphi double homicide case. Holeman said they'll have more answers in the next couple of days thanks to DNA evidence."

"I know that he is a registered sex offender, so some of that is probably already on file," said Holeman.

He said part of their investigation will include comparing Nations' DNA to the DNA found near the Monon High Bridge Trail, where Libby German and Abby Williams were found.

I feel very reassured that once (not if) LE finds the killer of Abby and Libby, they have everything they need to arrest, try and convict him.

I do believe your right that this case could be one used as a case study for years to come. This video has become so important, not only because Libby was brave and so very smart to take it, but because it gave LE the best starting point of who to look at as their suspect. I think the biggest factor that is going to come into play is the 'why' Libby took the video in the first place. Not just a picture, but a video.

You've nailed it. What if she hadn't had the foresight to take the video? I can't imagine what direction this case would have headed in if there was no video.

Once many of the details regarding how this crime went down become public, I think our collective minds here will be blown by everything LE knew all along based on that video. I won't be surprised that the careful steps they took prior to making an arrest will also be talked about for many years to come.

JMO (edited for clarity and to add details)

 

[Charlot123]

In my opinion, if investigators keep circulating that second sketch around, this case is not going to get solved because I think people are going to link that second sketch with the video from Liberty German's phone. I do not think the second sketch is even close to what this person on the bridge looks like. Getting people to focus only on the video and disregard the sketch is going to be difficult.

I guess we all think we know what this bridge guy looks like. It only goes to show you that despite this idea that all cases are solves with facts and hard evidence, there is still some subjectivity that goes into an investigation. People, in this case investigators, still need to decide what direction they will take in an investigation. They still need to decide what information is important and what is not.

I think that among photos processed by (I assume) our member who has not been posting for a while, there is one (nr 47 or 48) that he used to prove that the BG had thick hair. While I don’t see the hair, I see rather narrow set eyes and high cheekbones. An unusual face, unlike either sketch. And the person looks rather young on it.

I think the sketches themselves can be disregarded, unless they prove presence of two perps. MOO.

Question: what if the perp was underage in 2017? What is the strategy? To wait till he matures and now treat as an adult, or something else?

 

[somequestions]

Did you mean to say aren’t?

No, I meant it the way I wrote it. The correct word "are" was used.

What it means is that I think bridge guy looks nothing like the second sketch, but because the Liberty German video is blurry, people are going to associate the second sketch as being the person everyone is supposed to be looking for. Why? Because people take the police at their word and in this case at the press conference they even remarked about the sketch, "this is the person responsible." I think the sketch is even put on the same poster as the still of the video. Remember, no one can actually tell what the bridge guy looks like from Liberty German's video and the sketch is only the face. So basically I could end up being wrong later once an arrest is made. Maybe the actual killer will end up looking like the second sketch. I do not think so.

Do you think after looking at Liberty German's video that the second sketch is an accurate depiction of the face? Is it your opinion.

I think this is why so many people are confused about the two sketches. They want to make more of it than what it is(an accomplice, the same person seen by two different witnesses, etc). I do not agree with any of that.

In my opinion, investigators in this case have no idea who bridge guy is or what he looks like. So what they did is they took an eyewitness account from February 2017(the second sketch) and simply put it out there as being the person they are looking for in this case. Why? Because he may have had a car parked in a strange place. The investigators basically said the video is useless so let's just guess this sketch created in February 2017(released in April 2019) is most likely the killer. LE must think this eyewitness was very credible. The sketch released in July 2017 will become secondary. I do not know what that means if you are looking for one killer. In my opinion, it means they are just guessing with sketches because this bridge guy walked in and walked out and no one saw him(or remembered him well enough to give an accurate description).

It is all subjective. The two sketches released are from eyewitnesses who probably think they saw the killer that day. Do you agree with the eyewitnesses or not?

 

[somequestions]

Quoted bbm

I took some time recently to refresh my memory on the details surrounding D.N.'s arrest and to see again all of the published reasons why LE took a hard look at him for the Delphi case and came across this article that has been posted here previously.

ISP says DNA evidence could give them answers on Daniel Nations in days

At this time, police are not calling Nations a suspect or even a person of interest in the Delphi double homicide case. Holeman said they'll have more answers in the next couple of days thanks to DNA evidence."

"I know that he is a registered sex offender, so some of that is probably already on file," said Holeman.

He said part of their investigation will include comparing Nations' DNA to the DNA found near the Monon High Bridge Trail, where Libby German and Abby Williams were found.

I feel very reassured that once (not if) LE finds the killer of Abby and Libby, they have everything they need to arrest, try and convict him.

I do believe your right that this case could be one used as a case study for years to come. This video has become so important, not only because Libby was brave and so very smart to take it, but because it gave LE the best starting point of who to look at as their suspect. I think the biggest factor that is going to come into play is the 'why' Libby took the video in the first place. Not just a picture, but a video.

You've nailed it. What if she hadn't had the foresight to take the video? I can't imagine what direction this case would have headed in if there was no video.

Once many of the details regarding how this crime went down become public, I think our collective minds here will be blown by everything LE knew all along based on that video. I won't be surprised that the careful steps they took prior to making an arrest will also be talked about for many years to come.

JMO (edited for clarity and to add details)

I think you may have interpreted what I wrote the wrong way. In my opinion, I do not think LE is using Liberty German's video at all. Sure, they have it and will make the part they have available to the public as a still picture and video, but I think they are following "eyewitness" statements(and their sketches) to try and find the bridge guy, not the video.

So I think our collective minds here will be blown by everything LE did not know all along based on the video. I do not think LE is taking any sort of careful steps prior to making an arrest because I think they have absolutely no idea who the bridge guy is.

Only time will tell how the case turns out.

 

[JDough]

I think that among photos processed by (I assume) our member who has not been posting for a while, there is one (nr 47 or 48) that he used to prove that the BG had thick hair. While I don’t see the hair, I see rather narrow set eyes and high cheekbones. An unusual face, unlike either sketch. And the person looks rather young on it.

I think the sketches themselves can be disregarded, unless they prove presence of two perps. MOO.

Question: what if the perp was underage in 2017? What is the strategy? To wait till he matures and now treat as an adult, or something else?

I have a confession to make. I have never (ever) been able to see the hair/hat/hoodie, a mask, or facial features from any of the enhancements someone has taken the time to work on. I wish I could. So, to be honest, it isn't hard for me to accept the second sketch. If I am not mistaken, NEITHER sketch was drawn from the video. Both were from witness descriptions. (Please correct me if I am wrong). How anyone could try to draw a sketch from the video is beyond me. Maybe it's just my poor eyesight?

Here's what I found regarding statues in the state of Indiana regarding juveniles being waived to the adult court system:

Juvenile Waiver in Indiana | Indianapolis Attorneys
IC 31-30-3-2 is perhaps the most forbidding of the statutes as it lowers the age requirement for waiver to adult court from 16 to 14, and allows the court to consider a juvenile’s past criminal history of repetitive acts to graduate him to adult court. That section of the statute states that upon motion by the state of Indiana and after a full investigation and hearing, the juvenile court may waive jurisdiction of a juvenile to adult court if:
(1) the child is charged with an act that is a felony:

1. that is “heinous or aggravated” with more weight given to crimes against people rather than property; or
2. that is part of a repetitive pattern of delinquent acts even if less serious,

(2) the juvenile was at least fourteen (14) when the act was committed
(3) the child is beyond rehabilitation under the juvenile system; and
(4) it is in society’s best interest for safety and welfare to have the child tried as an adult.

 

[JDough]

DNA found near the Monon High Bridge Trail, where Libby German and Abby Williams were found.

RSBM

Thank you for reposting the article, BSleuth. I don't believe I have ever caught on to the underlined info above. DNA found near the MHB trail? Not at the crime scene?

Maybe I'm just reading too much into the statement.

 

[Charlot123]

No, I meant it the way I wrote it. The correct word "are" was used.

What it means is that I think bridge guy looks nothing like the second sketch, but because the Liberty German video is blurry, people are going to associate the second sketch as being the person everyone is supposed to be looking for. Why? Because people take the police at their word and in this case at the press conference they even remarked about the sketch, "this is the person responsible." I think the sketch is even put on the same poster as the still of the video. Remember, no one can actually tell what the bridge guy looks like from Liberty German's video and the sketch is only the face. So basically I could end up being wrong later once an arrest is made. Maybe the actual killer will end up looking like the second sketch. I do not think so.

Do you think after looking at Liberty German's video that the second sketch is an accurate depiction of the face? Is it your opinion.

I think this is why so many people are confused about the two sketches. They want to make more of it than what it is(an accomplice, the same person seen by two different witnesses, etc). I do not agree with any of that.

In my opinion, investigators in this case have no idea who bridge guy is or what he looks like. So what they did is they took an eyewitness account from February 2017(the second sketch) and simply put it out there as being the person they are looking for in this case. Why? Because he may have had a car parked in a strange place. The investigators basically said the video is useless so let's just guess this sketch created in February 2017(released in April 2019) is most likely the killer. LE must think this eyewitness was very credible. The sketch released in July 2017 will become secondary. I do not know what that means if you are looking for one killer. In my opinion, it means they are just guessing with sketches because this bridge guy walked in and walked out and no one saw him(or remembered him well enough to give an accurate description).

It is all subjective. The two sketches released are from eyewitnesses who probably think they saw the killer that day. Do you agree with the eyewitnesses or not?

It all depends on the motive. If it is sexual, and the person is a SK, then chances are, no one saw him.

If it is an “operation to eliminate” one of the girls (as a witness, or for another reason), then, there might have been several “scouts” here and there, and scarce witnesses saw them.

I don’t know what it was, it is beginning to look like 2nd scenario masked as the 1st one. Then, it might have been so that no one saw the real killer, but all these “scouts” are perpetrators as well.

 

[Andreee]

We all know LE is still, in some capacity, rummaging around trying to solve this case we all care so much about.
I was just wondering how many of us, the tried and true, think, for all intents and purposes, this is a cold case now. Not what you hope, not what you wish, but what you actually think.
Maybe we can get a head count.
I sadly think it is a cold case. Something major will have to happen to energize it.

dbm

 

[SMK777]

No, I meant it the way I wrote it. The correct word "are" was used.

What it means is that I think bridge guy looks nothing like the second sketch, but because the Liberty German video is blurry, people are going to associate the second sketch as being the person everyone is supposed to be looking for. Why? Because people take the police at their word and in this case at the press conference they even remarked about the sketch, "this is the person responsible." I think the sketch is even put on the same poster as the still of the video. Remember, no one can actually tell what the bridge guy looks like from Liberty German's video and the sketch is only the face. So basically I could end up being wrong later once an arrest is made. Maybe the actual killer will end up looking like the second sketch. I do not think so.

Do you think after looking at Liberty German's video that the second sketch is an accurate depiction of the face? Is it your opinion.

I think this is why so many people are confused about the two sketches. They want to make more of it than what it is(an accomplice, the same person seen by two different witnesses, etc). I do not agree with any of that.

In my opinion, investigators in this case have no idea who bridge guy is or what he looks like. So what they did is they took an eyewitness account from February 2017(the second sketch) and simply put it out there as being the person they are looking for in this case. Why? Because he may have had a car parked in a strange place. The investigators basically said the video is useless so let's just guess this sketch created in February 2017(released in April 2019) is most likely the killer. LE must think this eyewitness was very credible. The sketch released in July 2017 will become secondary. I do not know what that means if you are looking for one killer. In my opinion, it means they are just guessing with sketches because this bridge guy walked in and walked out and no one saw him(or remembered him well enough to give an accurate description).

It is all subjective. The two sketches released are from eyewitnesses who probably think they saw the killer that day. Do you agree with the eyewitnesses or not?

Thanks very much for the clarification. I understand exactly what you’re saying now.

 

[Yemelyan]

RSBM

Thank you for reposting the article, BSleuth. I don't believe I have ever caught on to the underlined info above. DNA found near the MHB trail? Not at the crime scene?

Maybe I'm just reading too much into the statement.

It seems to me that the crime scene (the part of it where he killed them anyway) is also NEAR the MHB trail (but not on it as it was RL's property). So it makes sense....it's another way of saying, DNA was found where their bodies were.

I believe part of the MHB was also taped off as crime scene, thought to be where he made them go down the hill, though that's not technically part of the trail system either.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I think you may have interpreted what I wrote the wrong way. In my opinion, I do not think LE is using Liberty German's video at all. Sure, they have it and will make the part they have available to the public as a still picture and video, but I think they are following "eyewitness" statements(and their sketches) to try and find the bridge guy, not the video.

So I think our collective minds here will be blown by everything LE did not know all along based on the video. I do not think LE is taking any sort of careful steps prior to making an arrest because I think they have absolutely no idea who the bridge guy is.

Only time will tell how the case turns out.

My apologies for misinterpreting your comment about the video.

I automatically linked your comment about Libby taking the video and LE using it as a case study and provided my own opinion as to why I believe that video is so significant to this case and what LE has in the way of evidence.

Hindsight tells me my post should have been worded differently.

JMO

 

[bradfordsleuth]

RSBM

Thank you for reposting the article, BSleuth. I don't believe I have ever caught on to the underlined info above. DNA found near the MHB trail? Not at the crime scene?

Maybe I'm just reading too much into the statement.

Good catch.

For clarity purposes, perhaps the article should have been worded 'near the crime scene.'?

JMO

 

[Blue Amethyst]

Thank you; and right back at ya!

I have no desire to derail the thread, but I would like to say a few words about what the families of Abby and Libby are experiencing; well, because I know (and some of you may too). Despite the fact my case began over 20 years ago, the thoughts, feelings and emotions remain the same. There are absolutely days of hopelessness. Overwhelming sadness, depression, anxiety, sleepless nights, anger, rage, fear, and so many, many more emotions that we experience on a daily basis. And yet, we members of this club we never wanted to be a part of always, always, always come back to believing justice will be served. We can't imagine that this won't happen- it keeps us sane in our moments of desperation.

The fear of wondering who this person is and why he hasn't been arrested is all-consuming at times. What if he wants to take another member of your family away from you? What if it is a family member? What important clue may I be missing, or have forgotten? Do I see and talk to this person? Does he know me personally and watch me suffer? And most importantly: WHY, WHY, WHY?

I know, without a doubt the families are very confused with the changes in the investigation. You can read and hear their reactions in the many personal interviews they have given. And yet, they still have hope the case will be solved. They still have a steadfast faith in the investigators- not an easy task. In honor of Abby and Libby, and in support of the family- I WILL NOT GIVE UP in believing right along with them. If they are reading here now, I want them to know how much the individuals in this thread will keep searching for answers. We'll keep watching for clues, we'll keep sharing their poster seeking tips, and most of all, we'll keep caring. We will continue to come back to this thread over and over again until justice is served. We will stand right beside you (even if it can't be in person).

Your time is coming, BG. Be prepared- someone is going to get the courage to come forward. And your life as you know it will be over. It's truly a shame you aren't man enough to turn yourself in. I guess DC may have been wrong about you having a smidgen of conscience left.

Your post brought me to tears even though we had chatted a while ago from another case. It is good to read the emotional aspect of a mother and the feelings of despair that they go through. I can imagine Becky and Anna going through the same emotions and our @Kimmer also. Hugs to all.

I find it so senseless that someone would murder a child but I don’t understand enough about all the underlying factors these horrible people have and it sounds as though there are many.

I think too that this case is stalled and they just don’t have enough evidence to put the perp away.

I haven’t followed a lot of cases but this is the only one where there seems to be 20 plus POI over the three years. These are not men suggested by LE but men we have read about as possibilities over the years. Hopefully it will come to an end soon.

 

[Yuletide]

I know ISP Superintendent Carter has said a sketch is not photograph and that the person LE is looking for might look somewhere 'in between' the two sketches. But the first sketch is drawn with the suspect wearing a hat and a goatee and the second is the suspect without a hat and clean shaven. Those different sets of characteristics seem to indicate two entirely different individuals.

I don't know why, because the photo from Liberty's video is very blurry, but I always thought the first sketch looked more like the guy in the video.

This is my far fetched, perhaps, explanation for the difference in the two sketches. He arrived with a goatee and a bunch of garb on. After the murders he took off all the excess clothing and hat, stuffed it all in a nap sack or backpack and used a battery powered shaver on his goatee. He then appears for the second set of witnesses to see as clean shaven and dressed more for the weather

 

[SMK777]

This is my far fetched, perhaps, explanation for the difference in the two sketches. He arrived with a goatee and a bunch of garb on. After the murders he took off all the excess clothing and hat, stuffed it all in a nap sack or backpack and used a battery powered shaver on his goatee. He then appears for the second set of witnesses to see as clean shaven and dressed more for the weather

One never knows.

 

[sunshineray]

In my opinion, if investigators keep circulating that second sketch around, this case is not going to get solved because I think people are going to link that second sketch with the video from Liberty German's phone. I do not think the second sketch is even close to what this person on the bridge looks like. Getting people to focus only on the video and disregard the sketch is going to be difficult.

I guess we all think we know what this bridge guy looks like. It only goes to show you that despite this idea that all cases are solves with facts and hard evidence, there is still some subjectivity that goes into an investigation. People, in this case investigators, still need to decide what direction they will take in an investigation. They still need to decide what information is important and what is not.

I honestly think the quality of the video images are so out of focus and pixalated it's a toss up whether BG looks more like the original sketch, the newer released sketch or is actually a combination (sharing some similarities) of both like ISP Carter has said. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Your post brought me to tears even though we had chatted a while ago from another case. It is good to read the emotional aspect of a mother and the feelings of despair that they go through. I can imagine Becky and Anna going through the same emotions and our @Kimmer also. Hugs to all.

I find it so senseless that someone would murder a child but I don’t understand enough about all the underlying factors these horrible people have and it sounds as though there are many.

I think too that this case is stalled and they just don’t have enough evidence to put the perp away.

I haven’t followed a lot of cases but this is the only one where there seems to be 20 plus POI over the three years. These are not men suggested by LE but men we have read about as possibilities over the years. Hopefully it will come to an end soon.

Snipped and BBM

I find it so senseless that someone would murder a child but I don’t understand enough about all the underlying factors these horrible people have and it sounds as though there are many.

I just watched the last episode of "I'll Be Gone In The Dark" about the GSK. Two things you always hear when a rapist/murderer is apprehended is either shock from some who saw no signs and acceptance from others who saw deviant behaviors.

Rapist/Killer JD's nephew, his sister's son spoke in the last episode. What he said was shocking. It could explain some things, not condone them but shine a light on how memories ingrained from behaviors observed as a child, deviancy can be born.

His nephew said when in Germany as a little girl (their father was stationed there) his 7 year old mother was raped in an airplane hanger on base by two enlisted men, all while her brother watched.

Sometimes those underlying factors you speak of are so complex and vile they defy explanation. Don't misunderstand me. GSK was an adult and chose his behaviors and is responsible. I just wonder how what that child saw destroyed empathy and turned it into monstrous actions when he grew up.

I wonder if BG has a similar backstory. It still wouldn't make sense of what he did but might explain how he developed.