Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[JnRyan]

I think there's a possibility that a tip has been shared which could lead to him, but LE have so many tips, and no solid leads at this point, that it's very much up in the air as to BG's identity.

JMO

Like a needle in the proverbial haystack. Didn't ISP Superintendent Carter state in the April PC that it is possible that LE interviewed the killer or someone close to him?

 

[Justice101]

Like a needle in the proverbial haystack. Didn't ISP Superintendent Carter state in the April PC that it is possible that LE interviewed the killer or someone close to him?

I think they were attempting to flush the guy out to somehow contact LE. Seemed to me like 90% of the PC was to make BG make a move. just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

I think they were attempting to flush the guy out to somehow contact LE. Seemed to me like 90% of the PC was to make BG make a move. just my 2 cents worth.

Yes I agree, but boy do I not think that is ever going to happen. I seriously doubt this double little girl rapist and murderer A) has a conscience or B) has an ounce of remorse. Shaming or guilting him into fessing up , imho, won’t work at all. Same with him spilling the beans, to his friends or family, I do not think so! They will, if he is ever for the love of God caught, say the usual....He is such a nice man! I never would have suspected him! Ugh. And he will be thrilled he outfoxed the police, not ashamed, and definitely not going to confess or tell another soul.

 

[sunshineray]

I am seeing us going through the same questions and patterns. For example, serial killer/not serial killer/pretending to be serial killer. From Delphi/outside, but close to Delphi/spent childhood in Delphi/had a 2-hour trip to MHB because it is really enough to know the area/accidental truck driver. Etc, etc.

I don't know if there is a way to write all these questions/patterns down and feed them to a computer, that would make several models. Different ones. And see where it overlaps with other situations.

Inexperienced as they were, I see that ISP has collected a lot of material. And it was probably fed into a computer. What came out, obviously, was not enough, but I wonder if different scenarios could match some other cases.

Because this is what they do with DNA. "Bad" or "good". I have read about DNA familial searches, it is human work but it uses certain algorithms. Human logic is still more interesting than AI, but computer can search databases of different crime versions.

I once spoke with a guy who was writing computer algorithms for search of SK, for a police department in another country. He said it was, in a way, straightforward, because the mentality of SKs was very rigid. But this situation is somewhat different, even if he is a SK (or a budding one). But really, they need good programmers, it seems, at this stage. MOO

P.S. The search should be not only through found victims, but the disappeared ones, too. For the pre-disappearance similarities. It is possible that this killer does not bury, but hides better when he has the time.

Remember that show they did awhile back on trying to identify the Zodiac Killer. That computer, CARMEL, was remarkable and a bit scary too, like Skynet scary. It was programmed to try and think like the killer. It was great at decoding ciphers too.

It seems it's getting to be less about garbage in, garbage out with computers nowdays. They're starting to think independently. CARMEL even popped out a poem in the Zodiac case, I believe without being asked to do so. I hope investigators are using everything they can to find the Delphi killer. RIP Abby and Libby.

 

[stattlich1]

I can't shake the idea that the killer planted evidence that led LE down the wrong path. Based on some comments LE has made, one being.....

Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

So what did the evidence lead to? Logically, it would have lead to one person, or another person, but never led to one particular person? Twins? Cousins? Family members? Father/Son?

Was this DNA evidence? Possibly. Was it planted? Possibly? But by who? and why? And how would the killer have obtained this DNA?

And if this evidence was NOT DNA, then it was what? Articles of clothing? Household items? Driver's licenses? Hunting gear? Something particular to a person, or another person, but when checked out, they had a solid alibi?

How would BG know these individuals that the evidence supposedly led to, but was not specific enough to arrest? If that's even the case? How would BG have obtained such evidence? Friend of their family? Coworker? Classmate? Organization colleague?

Was LE duped for two years?

MOO

 

[Charlot123]

.

I can't shake the idea that the killer planted evidence that led LE down the wrong path. Based on some comments LE has made, one being.....

Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

So what did the evidence lead to? Logically, it would have lead to one person, or another person, but never led to one particular person? Twins? Cousins? Family members? Father/Son?

Was this DNA evidence? Possibly. Was it planted? Possibly? But by who? and why? And how would the killer have obtained this DNA?

And if this evidence was NOT DNA, then it was what? Articles of clothing? Household items? Driver's licenses? Hunting gear? Something particular to a person, or another person, but when checked out, they had a solid alibi?

How would BG know these individuals that the evidence supposedly led to, but was not specific enough to arrest? If that's even the case? How would BG have obtained such evidence? Friend of their family? Coworker? Classmate? Organization colleague?

Was LE duped for two years?

MOO

They said they were onto something in the beginning... Think of what has changed.

1) BG's portrait. Two years into the investigation. This is where, I think, LE were sent on a wild-goose chase.
So some information LE received initially, be it from the witness or from the phone, was wrong. Maybe the phone was left intentionally?

2) What was left on the CS. I don't know what it was, but it either implied the wrong motive, or was simply person-specific. Think of someone leaving syringes or certain paraphenalia with someone's DNA, and that would logically lead them to the whole group of people (and this is what these local policemen should know well, who uses, what). And then they found out that they were duped. Or, a weapon could have been left that was criminal-specific.

3) At a certain point, either DNA was processed (they were going to fast-track it), or some evidence was introduced, or they got a tip that was intentionally wrong.

4) About DNA - I know it is not something you can "pour out", but in general, I have a relative who has exceptionally common mitochondrial DNA. Each time I get a notification, "a mito relative has been found", I know whose relative it is. Another one has very typical european Y-DNA, same thing.

So I think that if one could plant a "common" mito, or a Y, it would lead to a cluster of people. But I can't imagine it can be done without autosomal material.

5) Another way would be to manipulate this is the much-discussed "touch" DNA. Imagine "touching" someone so that it is left on a video, and then substituting the hoodie for an identical one, only with the "touch" of another person. This would be easy to do, I think.

I ran out of ideas for today, lol.

P.S. Maybe even a Bible with someone's ex libris? So the LE started investigating that person, where he was (and he could have well been nearby), and it took two years to clean the person.

P.S.x2 Hair without a bulb. This is where you basically get only mito DNA as of today. So god forbid if you get mitoDNA like my distant relative's one. It would lead you to some European aristocratic houses + Slavs + Lithuanians + half of Western Europe... I think in Delphi, it simply would lead to several families with common direct maternal relative, i.e., lots of people. (However, they are now learning how to extract nuclear DNA from such hair). Anyhow, maybe with time LE found out that that very DNA was planted.

 

[Yemelyan]

I can't shake the idea that the killer planted evidence that led LE down the wrong path. Based on some comments LE has made, one being.....

Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

So what did the evidence lead to? Logically, it would have lead to one person, or another person, but never led to one particular person? Twins? Cousins? Family members? Father/Son?

Was this DNA evidence? Possibly. Was it planted? Possibly? But by who? and why? And how would the killer have obtained this DNA?

And if this evidence was NOT DNA, then it was what? Articles of clothing? Household items? Driver's licenses? Hunting gear? Something particular to a person, or another person, but when checked out, they had a solid alibi?

How would BG know these individuals that the evidence supposedly led to, but was not specific enough to arrest? If that's even the case? How would BG have obtained such evidence? Friend of their family? Coworker? Classmate? Organization colleague?

Was LE duped for two years?

MOO

When I hear Ives say that, my first impression was not that it was so complicated as police being deliberately led astray. I thought there was a good possibility that he meant something like, we had footprints that seemed like they were unique and easy to trace. But we never matched them with the right person. It doesn't mean BG wore someone else's shoes. Just that they never found a suspect who had shoes like that at all.

And for footprints you could insert any type of physical evidence - we found bindings made of rope and we thought we could trace who purchased it, we found injuries that seemed to be made by an unusual weapon but we could never figure out who would have owned it. Just examples here.

So I guess instead of the evidence leading to the "wrong" person, IMO it led to nobody. Or, nobody yet.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I don't think this is a master-mind Perp as much as it was likely a contaminated crime scene. After all, the "master mind" was caught on both audio and video, and was allegedly spotted by a witness. That disqualifies them as a mastermind by my ranking.

Rather than being high functioning, I speculate this Perp is functioning more at a base, instinctual level, driven by a malfunctioning predatory compulsion, likely as a result of focal orbitofrontal injury (brain damage), whether organic or sustained. Neuropsychiatry of frontal lobe dysfunction in violent and criminal behaviour: a critical review

If this theory is accurate, the Perp would be associated with terms like: aggressive, violent, impulse control problems, and so forth.

Taking this theory further, it would also suggest this Perp wasn't under psychiatric care, because anyone in care who was demonstrating behavior that could be a threat to the public would have to be reported to LE under the "Duty to Warn" law - Mental Health Professionals’ Duty to Warn

So, the profile that this guy is some model citizen who living a dual life certainly is possible, but the preceding description I've outlined seems more likely to me.

As always, just amateur opinion and speculation

 

[sunshineray]

.


They said they were onto something in the beginning... Think of what has changed.

1) BG's portrait. Two years into the investigation. This is where, I think, LE were sent on a wild-goose chase.
So some information LE received initially, be it from the witness or from the phone, was wrong. Maybe the phone was left intentionally?

2) What was left on the CS. I don't know what it was, but it either implied the wrong motive, or was simply person-specific. Think of someone leaving syringes or certain paraphenalia with someone's DNA, and that would logically lead them to the whole group of people (and this is what these local policemen should know well, who uses, what). And then they found out that they were duped. Or, a weapon could have been left that was criminal-specific.

3) At a certain point, either DNA was processed (they were going to fast-track it), or some evidence was introduced, or they got a tip that was intentionally wrong.

4) About DNA - I know it is not something you can "pour out", but in general, I have a relative who has exceptionally common mitochondrial DNA. Each time I get a notification, "a mito relative has been found", I know whose relative it is. Another one has very typical european Y-DNA, same thing.

So I think that if one could plant a "common" mito, or a Y, it would lead to a cluster of people. But I can't imagine it can be done without autosomal material.

5) Another way would be to manipulate this is the much-discussed "touch" DNA. Imagine "touching" someone so that it is left on a video, and then substituting the hoodie for an identical one, only with the "touch" of another person. This would be easy to do, I think.

I ran out of ideas for today, lol.

P.S. Maybe even a Bible with someone's ex libris? So the LE started investigating that person, where he was (and he could have well been nearby), and it took two years to clean the person.

P.S.x2 Hair without a bulb. This is where you basically get only mito DNA as of today. So god forbid if you get mitoDNA like my distant relative's one. It would lead you to some European aristocratic houses + Slavs + Lithuanians + half of Western Europe... I think in Delphi, it simply would lead to several families with common direct maternal relative, i.e., lots of people. (However, they are now learning how to extract nuclear DNA from such hair). Anyhow, maybe with time LE found out that that very DNA was planted.

I've thought also that the DNA found was partial and could belong to a very old local family going back generations to a mother of more than 10 children. What an involved investigation that would be and it could produce many possibilities. Enough DNA to take some good guesses and investigate to close certainly but ultimately not good enough to arrest. I think there's more than one person under surveillance too. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

When I hear Ives say that, my first impression was not that it was so complicated as police being deliberately led astray. I thought there was a good possibility that he meant something like, we had footprints that seemed like they were unique and easy to trace. But we never matched them with the right person. It doesn't mean BG wore someone else's shoes. Just that they never found a suspect who had shoes like that at all.

And for footprints you could insert any type of physical evidence - we found bindings made of rope and we thought we could trace who purchased it, we found injuries that seemed to be made by an unusual weapon but we could never figure out who would have owned it. Just examples here.

So I guess instead of the evidence leading to the "wrong" person, IMO it led to nobody. Or, nobody yet.

And adding to this - LE had the entire trail closed off with crime scene tape. As the killer was likely waiting, watching somewhere along the way for a length of time I’m certain LE would’ve collected such things as every discarded cigarette butt, wrapper, spat gum or sunflower seeds and all other litter hoping it’d lead to the killer’s DNA. The challenge would be distinguishing any physical evidence dropped by the killer from what was discarded by other everyday people who walked the trails in the weeks before.

So this could also be another reason why Ives said 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

 

[Awsi Dooger]

And adding to this - LE had the entire trail closed off with crime scene tape.

Correct. And do you think they would have done that type of thing at Grand Central Station? It's only done when the area is reasonably low traveled to the point that collection and identification is potentially available, and very low number of people are inconvenienced during the closure.

I have no idea what they mean by vicinity. It could be Freedom Bridge alone, and never anywhere close to Monon High Bridge. It could be the nearby Andersons plant. But if we're talking about the trail toward the bridge then the notion of 50 people is beyond laughable. I wish we had a video of an entire day -- any day -- so that would be more readily accepted. Doug Carter in the Callahan Walsh segment conceded that the bridge area does not receive a lot of traffic

Regarding the signatures at the crime scene, the only aspect I've heard multiple times that seems reliable is that people submitting a name of a suspect -- especially in the early going -- were asked if that suspect is known to own any unusual weapons.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Correct. And do you think they would have done that type of thing at Grand Central Station? It's only done when the area is reasonably low traveled to the point that collection and identification is potentially available, and very low number of people are inconvenienced during the closure.

I have no idea what they mean by vicinity. It could be Freedom Bridge alone, and never anywhere close to Monon High Bridge. It could be the nearby Andersons plant. But if we're talking about the trail toward the bridge then the notion of 50 people is beyond laughable. I wish we had a video of an entire day -- any day -- so that would be more readily accepted. Doug Carter in the Callahan Walsh segment conceded that the bridge area does not receive a lot of traffic

Regarding the signatures at the crime scene, the only aspect I've heard multiple times that seems reliable is that people submitting a name of a suspect -- especially in the early going -- were asked if that suspect is known to own any unusual weapons.

I have never heard that LE was asking about unusual weapons early on. If that is true that is a very big deal.
To me what is not a big deal is how many people were on the trail that day. Whether there were 50 people or 10 people, as far as we know, none of them were anywhere near the MHB when the killer was making his way across towards the girls and zero was the number that saw the girls accosted and killed.

 

[stattlich1]

I have never heard that LE was asking about unusual weapons early on. If that is true that is a very big deal.
To me what is not a big deal is how many people were on the trail that day. Whether there were 50 people or 10 people, as far as we know, none of them were anywhere near the MHB when the killer was making his way across towards the girls and zero was the number that saw the girls accosted and killed.

Yes, I've never heard the 'unusual weapons' comment. Throwing knives? Ninja stars? What?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes, I've never heard the 'unusual weapons' comment. Throwing knives? Ninja stars? What?

I remember somewhat like a crossbow at the center of discussion, but I don't remember, LE had asked for weapons/type of weapons.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I remember somewhat like a crossbow at the center of discussion, but I don't remember, LE had asked for weapons/type of weapons.

Yes, I do remember people wondering about crossbows for some reason. Wow, that seems a long time ago.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yes, I do remember people wondering about crossbows for some reason. Wow, that seems a long time ago.

Aren’t those used in deer hunting?

 

[I wonder]

Rather than being high functioning, I speculate this Perp is functioning more at a base, instinctual level, driven by a malfunctioning predatory compulsion, likely as a result of focal orbitofrontal injury (brain damage), whether organic or sustained. Neuropsychiatry of frontal lobe dysfunction in violent and criminal behaviour: a critical review

If this theory is accurate, the Perp would be associated with terms like: aggressive, violent, impulse control problems, and so forth.

Taking this theory further, it would also suggest this Perp wasn't under psychiatric care, because anyone in care who was demonstrating behavior that could be a threat to the public would have to be reported to LE under the "Duty to Warn" law - Mental Health Professionals’ Duty to Warn

So, the profile that this guy is some model citizen who living a dual life certainly is possible, but the preceding description I've outlined seems more likely to me.

As always, just amateur opinion and speculation

I think he's quite simply a man with evil thoughts and urges, who wanted to rape and/or kill a female and did just that. He's nothing special. He's a pathetic, cowardly failure who killed two young girls because he felt like it. He was outwitted by a teenager who filmed him. We have video, a recording of his voice and he was seen by multiple witnesses.

I am certain he spends a great deal of his useless life paranoid that someone is following him, knowing that any moment LE are going to kick his door down and ask him what he wants for his final meal before they send him to hell for eternity.

 

[sunshineray]

Aren’t those used in deer hunting?

I know in CT crossbows are illegal unless the person wanting to hunt with one can prove a disability that they can't use a regular bow. Then they have to pass a training course before getting a license to hunt with one.

What are Indiana's laws on it?

 

[Gardenkeep]

.


They said they were onto something in the beginning... Think of what has changed.

1) BG's portrait. Two years into the investigation. This is where, I think, LE were sent on a wild-goose chase.
So some information LE received initially, be it from the witness or from the phone, was wrong. Maybe the phone was left intentionally?

2) What was left on the CS. I don't know what it was, but it either implied the wrong motive, or was simply person-specific. Think of someone leaving syringes or certain paraphenalia with someone's DNA, and that would logically lead them to the whole group of people (and this is what these local policemen should know well, who uses, what). And then they found out that they were duped. Or, a weapon could have been left that was criminal-specific.

3) At a certain point, either DNA was processed (they were going to fast-track it), or some evidence was introduced, or they got a tip that was intentionally wrong.

4) About DNA - I know it is not something you can "pour out", but in general, I have a relative who has exceptionally common mitochondrial DNA. Each time I get a notification, "a mito relative has been found", I know whose relative it is. Another one has very typical european Y-DNA, same thing.

So I think that if one could plant a "common" mito, or a Y, it would lead to a cluster of people. But I can't imagine it can be done without autosomal material.

5) Another way would be to manipulate this is the much-discussed "touch" DNA. Imagine "touching" someone so that it is left on a video, and then substituting the hoodie for an identical one, only with the "touch" of another person. This would be easy to do, I think.

I ran out of ideas for today, lol.

P.S. Maybe even a Bible with someone's ex libris? So the LE started investigating that person, where he was (and he could have well been nearby), and it took two years to clean the person.

P.S.x2 Hair without a bulb. This is where you basically get only mito DNA as of today. So god forbid if you get mitoDNA like my distant relative's one. It would lead you to some European aristocratic houses + Slavs + Lithuanians + half of Western Europe... I think in Delphi, it simply would lead to several families with common direct maternal relative, i.e., lots of people. (However, they are now learning how to extract nuclear DNA from such hair). Anyhow, maybe with time LE found out that that very DNA was planted.

You followed my thoughts right down the line. If there was viable DNA collected, I wondered about forensic genealogy. I wondered about touch DNA being a contamination. I wondered...pretty much the same as you have.

 

[minazoe]

I believe he recorded these murders.

I believe he's a narcissistic psychopath who spends a great deal of time viewing *advertiser censored* of an extreme and violent nature.

I'm sure he thinks he's very clever. Just because psychopaths are often high functioning , it doesn't always translate to intellect.But I still think he is very cunning and secretive.

In so many cases , there is a toxically masculine male with a shed, locked basement room, locked office, garage, storage unit etc. They have a staging area, and privacy.

Also I think in order to operate this guy really needs a car. if its his car , I imagine it to be another place he can hide things. This guy has equipment and things he wishes to do.
he has a purpose.

Also someone folded or pressed his jeans in such a way that they are creased.

He has done this before in my opinion and they probably are looking at cases where they had no DNA evidence but other matching markers or signatures.

no one knows what he has done , I used to think he would tell someone or brag about something , but now I think not...if so it's in sharing a predilection for *advertiser censored* etc. perhaps with a sibling.

mOO