Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[MistyWaters]

I’ve always had an intuition regarding a meet up with a “boy” who turned out to be the killer, even though it’s not a popular theory and many people and some facts refute it.

Two questions I have, though:

1. If, as my intuition and yours as well tells us that the Snapchat upload and the killer appearing are connected, that would mean the killer had a phone. What happened to it and why didn’t it ping or show in connection to the Snapchat?

2. What of Abby’s Mom’s insistence that Abby wasn’t “spiffed up” to meet a boy?

I’ve always had a question about the bridge photo as well - if Abby wasn’t allowed to walk on the bridge, why did Libby send a SC of her on it? It may have nothing to do with anything, just something I’ve wondered about.

ETA:
As for pings, I don’t believe cell tower data indicates the actual connections cellphones have made. Pinging only reveals which cellphones are within the range of a cellphone tower. LE also has no way of knowing who has possession of the actual cellphone at the time even if they are able to subpoena user information and call logs. JMO

 

[rosesfromangels]

I’ve always had an intuition regarding a meet up with a “boy” who turned out to be the killer, even though it’s not a popular theory and many people and some facts refute it.

Two questions I have, though:

1. If, as my intuition and yours as well tells us that the Snapchat upload and the killer appearing are connected, that would mean the killer had a phone. What happened to it and why didn’t it ping or show in connection to the Snapchat?

2. What of Abby’s Mom’s insistence that Abby wasn’t “spiffed up” to meet a boy?

I'm using inductive reasoning, not intuition. : )

To respond to your questions:
1. Mobile phone: It could have been a burner phone; almost impossible (if not impossible) to trace ATM.
Snapchat: While unlikely, you can download an Android emulator on to a PC and use Snapchat. One such emulator is called BlueStacks.
2. Being "spiffed up" - I don't doubt the Mom's perception, and in her now infamous bridge pic, Abby did not look spiffed up. HOWEVER, for all we know, there might have been prior interaction and the Perp might have remarked this was a look he liked - the girl hiker look. It might have even been a strategic compliment to eventually lead her to the hiking trail.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MistyWaters]

yep, Snapchat images aren’t stored for later. You take the picture, immediately choose who you want to send it to (multiple recipients as well as your public story is an opinion, and hit send, as part of the same process. You can send images from your phone camera instead but it will look slightly different (it’ll say “from camera roll”.) Now, it includes time frames to indicate when the picture was taken but I don’t remember if that’s a new thing or if it would be relevant. Either way it always looked to me like the pictures were taken in the app, not in the phone’s camera itself.

Recalling some of Libby’s photographs on Instagram, I thought she had an excellent eye for photography, well beyond her years. We know she took 2 pics sent by SC only because they were posted to FB that evening and then picked up by the media. I don’t recall they were ever “officially” released by LE.

So I wonder if more photos or videos were recovered from her cellphone which LE hasn’t publicly released, especially if it might address more of the timeline up until the video with Libby capturing the killer in the distance, then the audio of his voice.

 

[Yemelyan]

I’ve always had a question about the bridge photo as well - if Abby wasn’t allowed to walk on the bridge, why did Libby send a SC of her on it? It may have nothing to do with anything, just something I’ve wondered about.

ETA:
As for pings, I don’t believe cell tower data indicates the actual connections cellphones have made. Pinging only reveals which cellphones are within the range of a cellphone tower. LE also has no way of knowing who has possession of the actual cellphone at the time even if they are able to subpoena user information and call logs. JMO

In Scene of the Crime, Abby's mom has a memorable moment where she says that Abby had never been told she was not allowed to walk on the bridge. And she explains the reason she had never been told that, is because AW didn't think Abby ever would. She was more fearless than her mom thought she would be.

 

[MistyWaters]

In Scene of the Crime, Abby's mom has a memorable moment where she says that Abby had never been told she was not allowed to walk on the bridge. And she explains the reason she had never been told that, is because AW didn't think Abby ever would. She was more fearless than her mom thought she would be.

That might explain it, thanks!

 

[rosesfromangels]

... She was more fearless than her mom thought she would be.

Respectfully snipped

Or motivated....

 

[rosesfromangels]

Just speaking for myself, but I would hope any speculation might contain at least one fact that is known, in order to keep it tethered to the case in some way.

A very reasonable point.

And, stretching our boundaries of rational speculation isn’t a bad thing either, with a horrific crime that is now 3+ years unsolved.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[I wonder]

What if the Snapchat bit is a red herring? Abby was standing on a really high bridge. You can see the bridge from other locations in that area. Maybe the message to another person wasn't the photo, it was Abby standing on her own on the bridge.

The killer doesn't need a phone, so no phone is tracked. The killer would need to be in that location, but I think it was fairly likely that the girls would go to the bridge that day.

If this was the case, I think Libby took the photo to show others their location 'just in case'. 'Stranger Danger'. I've done similar things.

 

[Charlot123]

What if the Snapchat bit is a red herring? Abby was standing on a really high bridge. You can see the bridge from other locations in that area. Maybe the message to another person wasn't the photo, it was Abby standing on her own on the bridge.

The killer doesn't need a phone, so no phone is tracked. The killer would need to be in that location, but I think it was fairly likely that the girls would go to the bridge that day.

If this was the case, I think Libby took the photo to show others their location 'just in case'. 'Stranger Danger'. I've done similar things.

That if we assume that the attack was sexually motivated. We know nothing, so it is still 50/50.
My feeling is, the girls’ presence on the bridge, perhaps, was somehow curiosity-related, but the attack was not sexual at all. The perp needed to silence one of them. What information would make a teenager that dangerous for an adult, I don’t know.

 

[rosesfromangels]

That if we assume that the attack was sexually motivated. We know nothing, so it is still 50/50.
My feeling is, the girls’ presence on the bridge, perhaps, was somehow curiosity-related, but the attack was not sexual at all. The perp needed to silence one of them. What information would make a teenager that dangerous for an adult, I don’t know.

A prior encounter of some sort that she was going to report?

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I can see such a possibility:

"Priscilla" is an elderly woman who has little formal education and little experience with the larger world outside of her experience as a rural mid western farm wife. As a result, she has little understanding or interest in the legal definitions of "accomplice", nor does she have any knowledge of the implications the definition.

Lacking a formal education, however, does not always mean "unintelligent"- especially in Priscilla's generation. Priscilla is astute. She has cared for "Wally" (son, nephew, brother etc) for years and knows his interests, habits and mannerisms. She may quietly note and tolerate an interest by Wally for say, *advertiser censored*, but does not facilitate it.

Priscilla is also aware of the murders and notes the specific circumstances in which they occurred. Being astute, she also noted a that the circumstances of the murders may coincide with Wally's activities or interests. Likewise, she also noted a change in Wally before or after the crimes.

Priscilla's suspicions are raised. She, however, does not face the reality of Wally being the actual perpetrator. Instead, she goes into a quitely efficient protective mode.

bbm
Priscilla (my Priscilla not a midwestern farm wife ) has a lot of compassion for her son, who hasn't had it easy enough in his previous life, rather the opposite of "easy life". She doesn't accept the crime/crime in general, but she knows, her son needed it to be done obviously, if he should not take his own life instead.

... My possibility, which I can see.

 

[stattlich1]

With sincere respect to Abby's Mom, teens get to an age where Mom's don't know everything they are up to. I agree that the girls didn't look spiffed up to meet a boy. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they/one of them didn't tell a "boy" where/what they were going to do that afternoon. I still strongly speculate the picture post of Abby on the bridge was to promote what they were doing to someone in particular.

Only theory of course.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Quoted simply to further the discussion a bit.

I had a 25 year career working with youth aged anywhere from 6 to 19. The majority of those years were with teens 14 to 19. I'm talking LOTS of experience in working with teens. Not bragging, but just my field of expertise.

The nature of my work also often placed me in contact with LE, Social Agencies, Parents, Families, CPS, School personnel etc. etc.

From the early days of this case, I have always thought this to have been a planned excursion by the girls, not a random request to visit the bridge, so some of the current discussion here resonates with me.

One thing I used to do in training adults is use a simple analogy to describe the differences between the adult world, and the world of youth.

Adults are doing Hamlet, the kids are doing Othello. You see, adults know all about Hamlet, but know very little of Othello, very little. They think they know, but if they are not immersed in the culture of youth, as I was, they are truly missing a huge piece of the play, if not the entire play itself.

There is a HUGE world in the life of all teenagers that is often NEVER discussed with adults, and only becomes known to the adult if the adult is savvy enough to penetrate it.

'nuff said by me for now

 

[somequestions]

Anything is possible.
I think this was a meet up with a "boy" Abby had met online.
Just a theory.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Anything is possible, but if Abby felt comfortable meeting this person on the Monon High Bridge trail, it is a little strange her friend Libby would be so cautious. Libby did record this person without their knowledge.

The important part is there any sort of communication trail that would suggest Abby or Libby had intended to meet someone out on the Monon High Bridge trail that day. Going to the trail was a last minute decision that did not get any sort of approval until the girls were able to find a ride there and a ride back.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The important part is there any sort of communication trail that would suggest Abby or Libby had intended to meet someone out on the Monon High Bridge trail that day.

And the answer to that, according to LE and the families, is “no”.

 

[SMK777]

I'm using inductive reasoning, not intuition. : )

To respond to your questions:
1. Mobile phone: It could have been a burner phone; almost impossible (if not impossible) to trace ATM.
Snapchat: While unlikely, you can download an Android emulator on to a PC and use Snapchat. One such emulator is called BlueStacks.
2. Being "spiffed up" - I don't doubt the Mom's perception, and in her now infamous bridge pic, Abby did not look spiffed up. HOWEVER, for all we know, there might have been prior interaction and the Perp might have remarked this was a look he liked - the girl hiker look. It might have even been a strategic compliment to eventually lead her to the hiking trail.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Excellent response; thank you.

Yes, inductive reasoning is stronger than intuition.

1. Yes, you’re absolutely right on that. Good thinking.

2. Yes. Also, now that I think about it, when I was a teen I often dressed in Tees, jeans and felt I presented fine that way for a boy. I didn’t always feel the need for makeup, jewelry, hair accessories. These were athletic girls and when you’re that young, being clean with shampooed hair is really all you need to look nice.

 

[jillybean51]

Respectfully snipped and BBM for focus and commentary response.
I don't think the Perp was expecting "they"/them both. I think he was expecting only one of them. I think Libby's went along to protect her friend when meeting someone from online.

*Just theorizing*

Amateur opinion and speculation

I’m on-board with you.I think it was planned and not spur of the moment , on the girls part.I think they were expecting someone else.

 

[jillybean51]

Anything is possible, but if Abby felt comfortable meeting this person on the Monon High Bridge trail, it is a little strange her friend Libby would be so cautious. Libby did record this person without their knowledge.

The important part is there any sort of communication trail that would suggest Abby or Libby had intended to meet someone out on the Monon High Bridge trail that day. Going to the trail was a last minute decision that did not get any sort of approval until the girls were able to find a ride there and a ride back.

I think it was a first time meeting a boy online and Libby recorded because they knew this was not the same guy as advertised.Either that or they were trying to “ trap” an online predator and get his photo to turn him in, later.Things just didn’t go as planned....

 

[sunshineray]

I have a question about what is allowed to be posted here. I was watching a YouTube short video and the youtuber approached ISP Kim Reilly after the Delphi one year PC and asked him something. Can ISP Reilly's response be posted and discussed here with a link and time stamp for this video?

 

[Charlot123]

bbm
Priscilla (my Priscilla not a midwestern farm wife ) has a lot of compassion for her son, who hasn't had it easy enough in his previous life, rather the opposite of "easy life". She doesn't accept the crime/crime in general, but she knows, her son needed it to be done obviously, if he should not take his own life instead.

... My possibility, which I can see.

If he is her only son, I can understand her.

If he is a disabled person, I can understand (but blame her for not controlling him better).

If he is a person who got into the world of drugs, I would not blame him for it, as I see drugs as economic-psychological problem, in other words, I would incarcerate less and treat, more.

But if this world, addiction or *advertiser censored*. culminated in him killing two kids and now she is protecting him, it is still not right.

I understand, having read about Indiana LE, you don’t want your kid to end behind bars there. Their treatment of RL, and then, the story of Fouts, are the tips of one ugly iceberg. Regardless of the Delphi case, I think DC should not spend the time on podcasts, he needs to deal with a serious problem in his kingdom.

But then, maybe, suicide is the way out. I understand the feelings of the mom, but this person is very, very culpable, and better leave this world before he is formally accused.

 

[Yemelyan]

Quoted simply to further the discussion a bit.

I had a 25 year career working with youth aged anywhere from 6 to 19. The majority of those years were with teens 14 to 19. I'm talking LOTS of experience in working with teens. Not bragging, but just my field of expertise.

The nature of my work also often placed me in contact with LE, Social Agencies, Parents, Families, CPS, School personnel etc. etc.

From the early days of this case, I have always thought this to have been a planned excursion by the girls, not a random request to visit the bridge, so some of the current discussion here resonates with me.

One thing I used to do in training adults is use a simple analogy to describe the differences between the adult world, and the world of youth.

Adults are doing Hamlet, the kids are doing Othello. You see, adults know all about Hamlet, but know very little of Othello, very little. They think they know, but if they are not immersed in the culture of youth, as I was, they are truly missing a huge piece of the play, if not the entire play itself.

There is a HUGE world in the life of all teenagers that is often NEVER discussed with adults, and only becomes known to the adult if the adult is savvy enough to penetrate it.

'nuff said by me for now

I agree with everything you've presented here. There is a hidden world of teens that parents are oblivious to....even the teens who get good grades, even the teens that appear to play by their parents' rules.

Now, having said that, I refuse to believe that LE, with all the power of FBI behind them, does not also know this. We had a verified LE poster here a few months ago who told us exactly what LE does to investigate a case like this. And one of the first things - after of course securing crime scene evidence - is a victim risk assessment. Again, it's one of the FIRST things they do - not one of the last things, or what they do when they run out of leads.

A big part of the victim risk assessment is establishing whether domestic violence is at play and eliminating family or intimates as potential suspects. But it also involves delving into the activities and characteristics of the victim. It doesn't mean taking parental word for it, but really investigating things like potential drug use or social media activity that may have been previously unknown (I'm speaking of general behavior here, not specific to Abby or Libby).

I know that teens are savvy these days but I don't think they can outsmart the FBI in a high profile case like this. JMO but I believe LE would have left no stone unturned to figure out what these two were doing online.