Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Yemelyan]

So here is what I can tell you, there was a case, of a rape, in a town and a enlisted person was a POI. His DNA was in the database for the military. The person who was investigating the case, and had DNA from the victim, contacted the service branch and he was ruled out due to his DNA. I can't tell you more than that. I can say that someone ran the sample and looked at the comparison and it was not a match. As far as CODIS goes, I am not familiar with the military code for that. So thank you for sharing that. It is good to know.

As I stated in my post, if a POI is currently in the military and their name/identity is known to investigators (as in your example), a civilian investigation can likely get information with a probable cause warrant. But that's not anything close to what is going on in the Delphi case.

Here we have a subject whose identity is unknown, but who many people speculate may be current or ex-military because of his demeanor, or what have you.

It is not legally possible that the entities investigating the Delphi case could receive permission to scan the entirety of the US Department of Defense DNA database for military members (which is designed to identify remains of soldiers) to look for possible DNA matches for an unknown subject in a criminal investigation based on a theory that he could be past or present military.

How the military handles CODIS was contained within my original post - if a service member commits one or more offenses of specific magnitude (defined by the Department of Defense), then and only then does their DNA get separately and particularly collected for the purposes of uploading to CODIS for cross-referencing with all other potential crimes.

So when you wrote "he's not in the service or his DNA would be on file," your implication of how LE could access military members' DNA information is not at all accurate.

@Skully and I'd include @JimmyWells in this too, if you are LE or LE-adjacent, that's great. IMO the diversity and varying experiences of the members here add a lot to the threads. Maybe look into getting verified with Websleuths so we can have a measuring stick for your expertise and accuracy of your statements.

 

[Peppery]

"Guys," is big in urban LE, but its usually following, "Ok," as in "Ok guys blah blah blah." We also have to give props to LE for releasing the suspect's demeanor and its applicable here. If you're up on the tracks where people can see you and you don't want to spook anyone, "Guys," is appropriate. But if you get them isolated you can start being nasty and that's when I suspect "Down the Hill" was the related following god knows what.

Similar to what I was thinking, that the “guys” was part of his initial, less threatening approach. He may have been testing their reaction. For example, if they both started screaming and running in different directions, his plan would be foiled. If reported and found, he could easily explain away saying “guys” without raising any eyebrows. Like, “haha, you know teenage girls, so dramatic over everything, I only said excuse me guys because I wanted to pass them” or “I said be careful guys, this bridge is old and rickety” Without the video that would be totally plausible, especially if he is a respected member of the Delphi or any other community and he didn’t do anything but speak to them.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

I do remember early on the talk about a vehicle parked on the side of the road, by a building that was torn down later. I think that is where the second sketch came in. So if the person lived that close, and they had a vehicle description, wouldn't that send off alarm bells and someone would have a good idea who this was? I do believe he knew the area, but I don't think he lived in that town. If he was a hiker or hunter, they go to lots of different locations to do that sport. I wouldn't rule out PA or other states close by. I know hunters that travel all the time to hunt. If he was staying with relatives, they know who it is. JMO

I agree with you. I also believe he knew the area but didn’t live there. He had to know the area. But I disagree that his relative knows he is The Killer. Family frequently are the last to know. Tons of guys around there look just like the video the girls took of the guy that scared them. So I don’t think he stands out. IMHO if his father or mother grandmother lives there or lived there that could explain his comfort with the bridge and knowing where to send the girls to be abused and murdered away from someone coming across them. He was super comfortable with the location. I’d be looking for sons or grandsons of people who live there now or grew up there. Maybe his grandmother, for example, when he was a kid, thirty years ago. The car has never been 100 percent connected to BG has it? Could be a red herring? All of this obviously is my humble speculation.

 

[JimmyWells]

I perused a few articles relating car sightings but don't have the time to filter through what's credible or not. Depending on which way the car was facing on a given road may clue us in on where he was coming from. For example, if a car was sighted on 300 north but facing parked facing west he could have come from Jackson, Flora, Rock Creek. I remember reading about a car parked on the hoosier highway but not sure the sighting was credible. But, let's say it is, if the parked car was facing north he came from the south and vice versa. If we establish the direction he came from the search can be narrowed. The logistics of the April Tinsley case is a primary example of this. The barn message which was progressively darkened coupled with the body location and various taunting letters all occured northeast of Fort Wayne and pretty much all along the same route, a NE running highway straight to a trailer park in Grabil where the offender lived. I think this is a similar offender, close but not too close.

 

[Skully]

As I stated in my post, if a POI is currently in the military and their name/identity is known to investigators (as in your example), a civilian investigation can likely get information with a probable cause warrant. But that's not anything close to what is going on in the Delphi case.

Here we have a subject whose identity is unknown, but who many people speculate may be current or ex-military because of his demeanor, or what have you.

It is not legally possible that the entities investigating the Delphi case could receive permission to scan the entirety of the US Department of Defense DNA database for military members (which is designed to identify remains of soldiers) to look for possible DNA matches for an unknown subject in a criminal investigation based on a theory that he could be past or present military.

How the military handles CODIS was contained within my original post - if a service member commits one or more offenses of specific magnitude (defined by the Department of Defense), then and only then does their DNA get separately and particularly collected for the purposes of uploading to CODIS for cross-referencing with all other potential crimes.

So when you wrote "he's not in the service or his DNA would be on file," your implication of how LE could access military members' DNA information is not at all accurate.

@Skully and I'd include @JimmyWells in this too, if you are LE or LE-adjacent, that's great. IMO the diversity and varying experiences of the members here add a lot to the threads. Maybe look into getting verified with Websleuths so we can have a measuring stick for your expertise and accuracy of your statements.

My last post on page 64 should clear it up for you. I am just thinking out loud like the rest of you. I don't have any inside information on this case. Trisha knows my credentials.

 

[Skully]

I agree with you. I also believe he knew the area but didn’t live there. He had to know the area. But I disagree that his relative knows he is The Killer. Family frequently are the last to know. Tons of guys around there look just like the video the girls took of the guy that scared them. So I don’t think he stands out. IMHO if his father or mother grandmother lives there or lived there that could explain his comfort with the bridge and knowing where to send the girls to be abused and murdered away from someone coming across them. He was super comfortable with the location. I’d be looking for sons or grandsons of people who live there now or grew up there. Maybe his grandmother, for example, when he was a kid, thirty years ago. The car has never been 100 percent connected to BG has it? Could be a red herring? All of this obviously is my humble speculation.

Yes I see what you are saying about relatives. He may have lived there as a child and knows the area and is comfortable coming back. I can see both arguments about people not knowing or having a suspicion, but maybe not wanting to go there, KWIM? Sometimes a mother knows, but she can't bring herself to really face it, I know if it were my kid, I would have a hard time with it. You make good points.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

I don't hear Ohio in the accent at all. MOO. Additionally, most of us would use y'all or girls, not guys. Again, moo.

Moo: if I was waving a gun, gesturing down the hill, and said, guys, down the hill, I do not think I’d say guys, go down the hill. The gesture and down the hill would do it. It is how I speak to animals,direct, to the point, not too many words. He is excited, and menacing, and the little sweet girls, are just animals to him, if thst.

 

[stattlich1]

Now that I've taken a closer look it appears to be the outline of a weapon, and, true to form with shoulder holsters, it's rocking. The weight of the gun ordinarily pulls the holster down to your midriff and the still on the bridge shows this may be the case. Again, true to form, the barrel is pointed at his right elbow with the handle of the gun just superior and to the right of his pocketed hand. The ridge just above the slide just below the opening in the jacket looks like a Glock to me.

I posted a while back that I thought he was a lefty due to the position of that firearm and shoulder holster.

I have a GP100 with a shoulder rig and it hangs near exact as that Glock in the picture. AH, do we KNOW it's a Glock, maybe not. But I own a few, and the grip angle is quite unique, yes?

Keep it up JimmyWells.....

 

[somequestions]

The second sketch, the one released at the April 2019 press conference, was actually made two or three days after the murders. Someone came to LE and said “they had seen someone doing something that they felt needed reporting”....or something like that. LE had this person sit down with a sketch artist at that time. Why they sat on it for two years is anybody’s guess. Why they pulled it back out and put it front and center is an even bigger mystery.
The new sketch doesn’t look like the guy on the bridge to me either...except if you go frame by frame, there are a couple of times where he looks a lot thinner and a lot younger. For the most part though, to me, he looks like the first sketch. The same sketch for two years LE insisted to us was the guy...just like they are insisting to us now the guy in the second sketch is the guy. I’m half expecting a new sketch sometime in the new year.

Yes, I knew the second sketch was created in February 2017. My opinion is that LE felt the vehicle information was so relevant that it was worth a shot putting out the second sketch if it led to the owner's identification.

The idea that a vehicle was probably parked nearby somewhere is a good one. I thought, based on a man that I saw while I was working at my job, that the murderer was a truck driver. But even I have a hard time believing anyone would walk all the way from Indiana Packers and back to Indiana Packers after committing the crime. Or where would you be able to park a semi truck near the Monon High Bridge trail that would not be widely recognized by witnesses on the day of the crime? Or where could you park it that you would not be on private property?

I think it would have been better to say the person in the second sketch is someone they would like to talk to, but is not considered a suspect. I am not expecting any more sketches. It would make LE look like the boy that cried wolf even if the next one was correct in appearance. I think the only thing you will hear from LE from now on until an arrest is made is silence.

 

[flashy09]

Moo: if I was waving a gun, gesturing down the hill, and said, guys, down the hill, I do not think I’d say guys, go down the hill. The gesture and down the hill would do it. It is how I speak to animals,direct, to the point, not too many words. He is excited, and menacing, and the little sweet girls, are just animals to him, if thst.

I agree it shows how confident he was in his control. He has got them and now he can give a simple command he knows they will follow. The last sentence you wrote is true and so sad.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Is BG bow legged?

 

[sunshineray]

i strongly second that.. its a sentiment that's been discussed over and again in communities..they also appear not to like the internet sleuths input on the case...
my explanation for this unusual behaviour might be small town dynamics.. where you tend to believe in absolute le authority and want to keep friendly ties ...

It's interesting that you say the families don't seem to like internet sleuths. Sometimes you'll hear that LE seems to feel that way also, yet both those groups get involved with CrimeCon and countless podcasts or youtube broadcasts. That can be viewed as a bit hypocritical, IMO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Maybe two voices, one mouth? speculation.

One voice (submissive?)- pre-attack, "Guys"
Second voice- (a command, mean, confidant?) after display of weapon? "Down the hill"

If it is a man, who occasionally for fun imitates certain voices (there are many out there with this talent), it is very well possible, he spoke in different nuances, even without a reason. Maybe, he didn't notice it himself. IMO

ETA: Perhaps BG called the term "guys", when he turned his head to his left side? Actually with a louder voice (than "down the hill"), but on the tape not louder in frequency, because he turned his head away (from the micro of Libby's phone).

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes, I was referring to talcum, for whatever reason, ME's rarely use the term.

I want to add: Talcum comes with Neopren diving suits. Makes sense, if BG had something like that under his clothes, as a creek crossing was probably planned by him. IMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Is BG bow legged?

I think, his jeans looks like that a very little bit, but he hasn't bowed legs. His jeans might be a little bulged from sitting (in his car, in the woods, on a bench) or someone other had worn the jeans before and bulged the knee part. IMO

 

[Laughing]

I posted a while back that I thought he was a lefty due to the position of that firearm and shoulder holster.

I have a GP100 with a shoulder rig and it hangs near exact as that Glock in the picture. AH, do we KNOW it's a Glock, maybe not. But I own a few, and the grip angle is quite unique, yes?

RSBM

I did wonder about a shoulder holster, but that casual jacket makes for a tough call.

Years ago I worked as the lone seamstress in a tuxedo store. I once irritated a suit-wearing Federal Marshal because by look alone I could tell him not just the size information he needed, but that he was left-handed.

That Marshal's suit jacket was fitted nicely -- but once you know where to look, that shoulder holster is distinctive.

Posture & the casual jacket are no help with BG.

Sig-Sauer, possibly? (IMHO not a Ruger.)

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Skully]

Well I was watching the video, and it dawned on me, why he has layers of cloths on. He had to have a change of cloths because it was daylight, and how do you get out of there, covered in blood after killing two girls? I think he had the change of cloths on, under that jacket. I did see the white thing around his neck, looks like a scarf, but it is more likely some sort of sweater underneath.

And regarding his gait, I looked at the bridge, and the planks are uneven, bumpy or raised, and it would be hard to walk over that narrow, scary bridge and not trip if you weren't carful. You have to pick up your feet, or you risk tripping. There are no side railing either, and it is a good drop off to the creek below.

I just read 65 - 70 ft drop off from bridge. And it sways in the wind.

 

[Skully]

So I saw the photo that Libby took of Abbey around 2 o'clock and she is pretty far over the bridge at this point, I don't see BG in the background of the photo. Anyone? Did they cross over and then back track and they see him on the return trip? I sort of lost my bearings with the bridge and directions of where they are N or S on that bridge. I know where they were dropped off and it is a short cut to it, but did they cross over originally at the N end to S end? Or the other way around, because you can hike it either way.

So I got my bearings now. They go from NW to S on the bridge, and BG has his photo taken very close to where the S end of the bridge is, so he is close to them at this point. Did he catch up to them? Or was he already at the end of the bridge and he was waiting on platform (5) and they passed him and he started following them as they passed? Just thinking out loud. That is a long bridge and the video that is in the link on the first page of this thread by Julie Melvin is amazing.

 

[Skully]

Just thinking out loud again. So he already is prepared to kidnap and kill someone that day, because he comes prepared to that. He knows where he is going to do this and how. He has a plan and a place to do this and he most likely has the tools he needs to carry out his plan. Does he just wait that day for a victim or victims to come by? Was it by chance he ran into them? I think so. He would have gone home that day if they weren't there, and returned another day to do this. So I am starting to think he was at the S end of the bridge, maybe he was checking out where his crime scene was going to be, and when he saw them coming down the bridge, he started towards them. I think the girls passed him, but didn't take a photo of him until he turned around and started towards them. He had to have them in front of him, going towards the end of that bridge to get control and lead them down the hill. This is no way helps to solve it, or ID him, but I just wanted to understand what happened that day. This makes more sense to me. I couldn't understand how he got so close to them so fast, as the bridge is not good to run on or jog, it is scary.

 

[Cryptic]

Well I was watching the video, and it dawned on me, why he has layers of cloths on. He had to have a change of cloths because it was daylight, and how do you get out of there, covered in blood after killing two girls?

Though this is clearly possible, I think the layered clothing could be incidental.

Layered clothing at certain times of the year is common amongst mid western farmers as well as industrial and construction workers.as it allows quick adjustment to the temperature / working conditions with out having to go back to your car etc.

Midwest temperatures can vary alot through out the day depending on the weather. Then factor in the amount of physical activity one is doing and where a person is working (say, unheated open shed verse direct sun).

For example, I would show up for an early fall morning at an industrial plant in a "hoodie" over a light long sleeve shirt, over a T shirt. Some days, I would go down to the T shirt for a few hours, then layer up again as evening approached.

I also noticed that wearing layered clothing was habitual amongst some men to the extent that I saw them wearing it around town when they probably did not need to.