Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Skully]

Though this is clearly possible, I think the layered clothing could be incidental.

Layered clothing at certain times of the year is common amongst mid western farmers as well as industrial and construction workers.as it allows quick adjustment to the temperature / working conditions with out having to go back to your car etc.

Midwest temperatures can vary alot through out the day depending on the weather. Then factor in the amount of physical activity one is doing and where a person is working (say, unheated open shed verse direct sun).

For example, I would show up for an early fall morning at an industrial plant in a "hoodie" over a light long sleeve shirt, over a T shirt. Some days, I would go down to the T shirt for a few hours, then layer up again as evening approached.

I also noticed that wearing layered clothing was habitual amongst some men to the extent that I saw them wearing it around town when they probably did not need to.

So either way, whether or not he intended to layer for a quick change or not, he had a way to leave that crime scene without drawing attention, not to mention he now is dressed different leaving that when going into the park. If he was spotted in a blue jacket coming in, maybe someone saw him leaving but did think to report it, as he looked different. Maybe that is why there is 2 sketches. I the first released one was from people seeing a hiker that day.

 

[stattlich1]

I spend lots of time speculating.

Over the years, I've read he followed them on to the bridge, meaning, he stepped on the bridge when they were already across. This is what I think happened, but maybe not. I don't think it would take too long to cross that bridge. It's 853 feet long. Reason I think he started from this end is that he wanted to make sure nobody else was coming along down the trail.

MON - Deer Creek High Bridge

Maybe takes 4 or 5 minutes to cross it.

Walk Time Calculator

Some speculation was he was already on the South side, passed them across the bridge, then turned around.

Some also speculated he was hiding under the bridge, and crawled atop after they walked by.

 

[stattlich1]

MOO

I don't think he messed around with changing clothes. I think he's smarter than that. Doing so would increase the risk of leaving evidence behind.

I do think he was prepared. I also think he was fit, swift, and had it all laid out. I think he left via the cemetery after the murders. Simply walked up that hill, got in his car, and drove away.

I think this guy either was at his perch, awaiting his prey, many times before, and this day was when everything came together for him OR.....

He knew those girls were coming, and had some motive for his killing them.

Occam's razor.

MOO

 

[Skully]

I spend lots of time speculating.

Over the years, I've read he followed them on to the bridge, meaning, he stepped on the bridge when they were already across. This is what I think happened, but maybe not. I don't think it would take too long to cross that bridge. It's 853 feet long. Reason I think he started from this end is that he wanted to make sure nobody else was coming along down the trail.

MON - Deer Creek High Bridge

Maybe takes 4 or 5 minutes to cross it.

Walk Time Calculator

Some speculation was hee was already on the South side, passed them across the bridge, then turned around.

Some also speculated he was hiding under the bridge, and crawled atop after they walked by.

Yep just posted that, in 1342. He was already there at the S end.

 

[JimmyWells]

So I saw the photo that Libby took of Abbey around 2 o'clock and she is pretty far over the bridge at this point, I don't see BG in the background of the photo. Anyone? Did they cross over and then back track and they see him on the return trip? I sort of lost my bearings with the bridge and directions of where they are N or S on that bridge. I know where they were dropped off and it is a short cut to it, but did they cross over originally at the N end to S end? Or the other way around, because you can hike it either way.

So I got my bearings now. They go from NW to S on the bridge, and BG has his photo taken very close to where the S end of the bridge is, so he is close to them at this point. Did he catch up to them? Or was he already at the end of the bridge and he was waiting on platform (5) and they passed him and he started following them as they passed? Just thinking out loud. That is a long bridge and the video that is in the link on the first page of this thread by Julie Melvin is amazing.

That is my quandary, where did he start tailing them? <modsnip: Information from non approved source> we don't see him in the background of the picture with Abby and we should. This means the girls stood at the east end of the bridge for a substantial amount of time waiting for BG to close the distance, OR BG or a co-offender was already lying in wait on the east side. Someone could have been waiting under or aside the bridge on the east side with plenty of space to pull himself up from either position and still appear to be walking east on the bridge from where he pulled himself up. This has been my point all along, BG would to have been in the background in the picture with Abby to have tailed them from the west side of the ravine. He could have already been on the east and intercepted the girls after they crossed above him. The service road access from the south (625W) could have been utilized here as it was the closest access to both the east side of the bridge and also 250 feet from where the bodies were recovered, that's roughly 75 yards, not far at all. Assuming he was knowledgeable about the area, we can't dismiss the possibility that he witnessed the girls enter from the west side at the head of the trail then took his car east on 300 north, but his pants would have been wet if he crossed the creek from that side. A more plausible explanation is he saw the girls enter at the head of the trail, knowing where it lead he got back in his car and took either 300N east, then south on 450W, west on 200N, then north on 625W, or possibly State Road 25 southeast to Washington and circled around that way. I think he was already on the east side when they were intercepted and didn't see him coming up from behind. I know the video shows him walking east on the bridge towards the victims, I know that, but who's to say he wasn't already hiding in a gap in the bridge supports or already on the east side walking west when they spotted him. There was a ton of real estate on the east side to where the bridge was only a few feet above where the ground was, and knowing where the trail led, he could have circled around ambushed them from the east.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

That is my quandary, where did he start tailing them? <modsnip: Information from non approved source> we don't see him in the background of the picture with Abby and we should. This means the girls stood at the east end of the bridge for a substantial amount of time waiting for BG to close the distance, OR BG or a co-offender was already lying in wait on the east side. Someone could have been waiting under or aside the bridge on the east side with plenty of space to pull himself up from either position and still appear to be walking east on the bridge from where he pulled himself up. This has been my point all along, BG would to have been in the background in the picture with Abby to have tailed them from the west side of the ravine. He could have already been on the east and intercepted the girls after they crossed above him. The service road access from the south (625W) could have been utilized here as it was the closest access to both the east side of the bridge and also 250 feet from where the bodies were recovered, that's roughly 75 yards, not far at all. Assuming he was knowledgeable about the area, we can't dismiss the possibility that he witnessed the girls enter from the west side at the head of the trail then took his car east on 300 north, but his pants would have been wet if he crossed the creek from that side. A more plausible explanation is he saw the girls enter at the head of the trail, knowing where it lead he got back in his car and took either 300N east, then south on 450W, west on 200N, then north on 625W, or possibly State Road 25 southeast to Washington and circled around that way. I think he was already on the east side when they were intercepted and didn't see him coming up from behind. I know the video shows him walking east on the bridge towards the victims, I know that, but who's to say he wasn't already hiding in a gap in the bridge supports or already on the east side walking west when they spotted him. There was a ton of real estate on the east side to where the bridge was only a few feet above where the ground was, and knowing where the trail led, he could have circled around ambushed them from the east.

My question would be: When did he learn, that Abby/Libby would step onto the MHB at all? They hadn't to go there. How did he know? He had to wait for them to walk over the bridge for at least half of the length, otherwise he couldn't know, how to maneuver.
IF he had "a date" with them at the eastend of the MHB, it would all be clear for him from the beginning. IMO

 

[Sheila Terranova]

Just thinking out loud again. So he already is prepared to kidnap and kill someone that day, because he comes prepared to that. He knows where he is going to do this and how. He has a plan and a place to do this and he most likely has the tools he needs to carry out his plan. Does he just wait that day for a victim or victims to come by? Was it by chance he ran into them? I think so. He would have gone home that day if they weren't there, and returned another day to do this. So I am starting to think he was at the S end of the bridge, maybe he was checking out where his crime scene was going to be, and when he saw them coming down the bridge, he started towards them. I think the girls passed him, but didn't take a photo of him until he turned around and started towards them. He had to have them in front of him, going towards the end of that bridge to get control and lead them down the hill. This is no way helps to solve it, or ID him, but I just wanted to understand what happened that day. This makes more sense to me. I couldn't understand how he got so close to them so fast, as the bridge is not good to run on or jog, it is scary.

I agree one hundred percent. I was talking with a detective one day (different case) and he said killers of this sort of murder are hunters. They are opportunistic. Just like lions looking for the animal that has fallen away from the herd. When they find the perfect victim, alone, (in this case two, which is unusual)young, vulnerable, trapped high up on a bridge in this case, no witnesses, they pounce.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

It's interesting that you say the families don't seem to like internet sleuths. Sometimes you'll hear that LE seems to feel that way also, yet both those groups get involved with CrimeCon and countless podcasts or youtube broadcasts. That can be viewed as a bit hypocritical, IMO.

It would fit with LG's passion and intelligence, that she had interest in Crime forums already. KG isn't far from it, if she tries to solve the murder of her sister. It's not all science, it's partly only common sense ....., IMO.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Regarding incredibly common along nature trails, I agree one hundred percent. I was told (mother was homicide reporter)they are dangerous because predators like to hunt on grounds they can be positively assured will not involve police presence or police rescue. Thus, hiking trails, arroyos owned by water companies, (thinking of the canal killings in Phoenix)etc: private property so no police, but public in the sense people are allowed to jog or hike there,so plenty of potential victims.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think it would have been better to say the person in the second sketch is someone they would like to talk to, but is not considered a suspect.

We wouldn't have believed it any way.

 

[Sillybilly]

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[somequestions]

Though this is clearly possible, I think the layered clothing could be incidental.

Layered clothing at certain times of the year is common amongst mid western farmers as well as industrial and construction workers.as it allows quick adjustment to the temperature / working conditions with out having to go back to your car etc.

Midwest temperatures can vary alot through out the day depending on the weather. Then factor in the amount of physical activity one is doing and where a person is working (say, unheated open shed verse direct sun).

For example, I would show up for an early fall morning at an industrial plant in a "hoodie" over a light long sleeve shirt, over a T shirt. Some days, I would go down to the T shirt for a few hours, then layer up again as evening approached.

I also noticed that wearing layered clothing was habitual amongst some men to the extent that I saw them wearing it around town when they probably did not need to.

The clothing was the biggest reason I thought Abby and Libby's killer was a truck driver, specifically a refrigerated truck driver. It is so interesting from a psychological standpoint how you can view something and link it in your mind to something else. At cold storage facilities, the docks are cold when loading because the meat has to stay cold. When drivers come onto the dock area many of them will be dressed for colder temps even when it is warmer outside.

So if you see someone who is wearing a blue jacket, blue jeans, and a winter swiss army floppy ear hat, does that mean you saw the man in Liberty German's video? Because a lot of people wear blue jeans. A lot of people probably have blue jackets. A lot of people wear winter hats. Many truck drivers are heavier set in appearance. There are many truck drivers traveling throughout many states in refrigerated trucks.

So whether we theorize layers of clothing or change of clothing, what does that prove without any factual proof? I cannot see any layers of clothing. Regarding a change of clothing, as far as I know police never found clothing from anyone other than the victims out in the Monon High Bridge Trail area unless the killer took his clothes with him.

So it is interesting how our views or biases about a case are influenced by what we see or think. It was not that way at the beginning of this case. I have known about the Delphi murders case since almost the very beginning back in February 2017. I was so sure police would probably solve this case within the first few weeks because of the video/audio, clothing, remote location, and national media coverage.

Who would have thought this case would remain unsolved this many years later?

 

[Awsi Dooger]

So I saw the photo that Libby took of Abbey around 2 o'clock and she is pretty far over the bridge at this point, I don't see BG in the background of the photo. Anyone? Did they cross over and then back track and they see him on the return trip? I sort of lost my bearings with the bridge and directions of where they are N or S on that bridge. I know where they were dropped off and it is a short cut to it, but did they cross over originally at the N end to S end? Or the other way around, because you can hike it either way.

So I got my bearings now. They go from NW to S on the bridge, and BG has his photo taken very close to where the S end of the bridge is, so he is close to them at this point. Did he catch up to them? Or was he already at the end of the bridge and he was waiting on platform (5) and they passed him and he started following them as they passed? Just thinking out loud. That is a long bridge and the video that is in the link on the first page of this thread by Julie Melvin is amazing.

When I reached that 2:07 point on the bridge I looked both ways and estimated it was 35% across. I mentioned that online on several sites, including here. Then someone did a more precise calculation based on footage. It is closer to 38-39% across.

There's no reason for Bridge Guy to be in the background at that point. He certainly doesn't want to already be on the bridge. That is far too soon. IMO, the two biggest misconceptions in this case are that the bridge area is highly travelled, and that Bridge Guy crossed rapidly.

Locals like Abby and Libby don't care about Freedom Bridge. They had roughly 90 minutes and were going to use the vast majority of it toward exploring Monon High Bridge, especially since it was Abby's first crossing. By every indication, their one-way crossing took an extraordinary amount of time. I was up there for 15-20 minutes one way because I knew I'd likely never be there again. I was stopping on every platform while filming short videos, etc. Abby and Libby apparently took even longer than that. They were no doubt stopping and talking and taking pictures galore.

Since we have only a couple of images, of Libby snapping a photo of a distant and walking Abby, and Libby videotaping a distant and walking Bridge Guy, it lends to a false impression of persistent spacing and non-stop foot travel. Meanwhile if we had video of the entirety it would immediately be shocking at how different the reality was. I'm not even confident that Bridge Guy walked the entirety without stopping occasionally, and looking like a tourist.

Why does he need to rush? Abby and Libby are crossing at 20 minute pace, if not slower. Bridge Guy has noted that pace before embarking. He's got to wait and make sure they don't turn around. The vast majority who venture onto that bridge do turn around. If Bridge Guy enters the equation when the 2:07 photo is snapped, then at normal 7 minute pace he's going to gobble them up while they are still midway on the bridge. No chance he can afford that. That scenario is going to set off alarm bells. That is not a passing bridge. Abby and Libby are exponentially more likely to be scared and take off quickly toward the end of the bridge if they see him on track to reach them early. Instead, Bridge Guy smartly waited until the girls were probably midway on the bridge, if not slightly beyond that. Then he can undertake a normal-looking 7 minute pace and maybe even slow down if he notices the girls taking even longer than he expected. Ideal timing for him is to reach the end just after they finished.

By all indications, that is exactly what happened. Abby and Libby expected a brief awkward encounter. That would have been the outcome virtually every time. When I visited my primary interest was exploring beyond the bridge, due to insistence the girls were trapped. Reality was what I expected: They were anything but trapped. But there also wasn't enough legitimate dread to cause them to dash away all. That is overplaying the result.

Surprise murders are going to happen. I hate to phrase it that way but it's part of normal distribution. Aspiring perpetrators and a competent plan.

Gray Hughes and others have used shadows and gauged the Bridge Guy video at slightly beyond 2:20. Maybe 2:22. I have seen assertions the video was taken as late as 2:33, which apparently sources from CNN. The 2:22 makes more sense to be since it would align with 20-25 minutes to cross.

But I've always wondered why there wasn't greater verification toward the 2:33. If that number is accurate, then it really makes me wonder what was going on with Bridge Guy. He would have had to wait an extraordinarily long time before entering the bridge. I'm almost thinking he expected someone to show up near the foot of the bridge, causing him to tame the demons and casually walk away. But once he waits 20 minutes or more and there's nobody in sight, he goes for it.

 

[sandy_80]

if he was coming from freedom bridge..then he would meet them halfway as they entered the trails..would hang around or hide so they wouldn't be overly suspicious then starts after them

 

[JimmyWells]

When I reached that 2:07 point on the bridge I looked both ways and estimated it was 35% across. I mentioned that online on several sites, including here. Then someone did a more precise calculation based on footage. It is closer to 38-39% across.

There's no reason for Bridge Guy to be in the background at that point. He certainly doesn't want to already be on the bridge. That is far too soon. IMO, the two biggest misconceptions in this case are that the bridge area is highly travelled, and that Bridge Guy crossed rapidly.

Locals like Abby and Libby don't care about Freedom Bridge. They had roughly 90 minutes and were going to use the vast majority of it toward exploring Monon High Bridge, especially since it was Abby's first crossing. By every indication, their one-way crossing took an extraordinary amount of time. I was up there for 15-20 minutes one way because I knew I'd likely never be there again. I was stopping on every platform while filming short videos, etc. Abby and Libby apparently took even longer than that. They were no doubt stopping and talking and taking pictures galore.

Since we have only a couple of images, of Libby snapping a photo of a distant and walking Abby, and Libby videotaping a distant and walking Bridge Guy, it lends to a false impression of persistent spacing and non-stop foot travel. Meanwhile if we had video of the entirety it would immediately be shocking at how different the reality was. I'm not even confident that Bridge Guy walked the entirety without stopping occasionally, and looking like a tourist.

Why does he need to rush? Abby and Libby are crossing at 20 minute pace, if not slower. Bridge Guy has noted that pace before embarking. He's got to wait and make sure they don't turn around. The vast majority who venture onto that bridge do turn around. If Bridge Guy enters the equation when the 2:07 photo is snapped, then at normal 7 minute pace he's going to gobble them up while they are still midway on the bridge. No chance he can afford that. That scenario is going to set off alarm bells. That is not a passing bridge. Abby and Libby are exponentially more likely to be scared and take off quickly toward the end of the bridge if they see him on track to reach them early. Instead, Bridge Guy smartly waited until the girls were probably midway on the bridge, if not slightly beyond that. Then he can undertake a normal-looking 7 minute pace and maybe even slow down if he notices the girls taking even longer than he expected. Ideal timing for him is to reach the end just after they finished.

By all indications, that is exactly what happened. Abby and Libby expected a brief awkward encounter. That would have been the outcome virtually every time. When I visited my primary interest was exploring beyond the bridge, due to insistence the girls were trapped. Reality was what I expected: They were anything but trapped. But there also wasn't enough legitimate dread to cause them to dash away all. That is overplaying the result.

Surprise murders are going to happen. I hate to phrase it that way but it's part of normal distribution. Aspiring perpetrators and a competent plan.

Gray Hughes and others have used shadows and gauged the Bridge Guy video at slightly beyond 2:20. Maybe 2:22. I have seen assertions the video was taken as late as 2:33, which apparently sources from CNN. The 2:22 makes more sense to be since it would align with 20-25 minutes to cross.

But I've always wondered why there wasn't greater verification toward the 2:33. If that number is accurate, then it really makes me wonder what was going on with Bridge Guy. He would have had to wait an extraordinarily long time before entering the bridge. I'm almost thinking he expected someone to show up near the foot of the bridge, causing him to tame the demons and casually walk away. But once he waits 20 minutes or more and there's nobody in sight, he goes for it.

Great post, but I disagree wholeheartedly, and even more so when you detailed how long it would take. They were not cornered by any stretch of the imagination. Moreover, and this is a possibility, A and L could have only crossed due to being wary of their pursuer, but the Abby photo blows that out of the water because they weren't running from anyone when it was taken. Correct me if I misread, but why would they have waited until BG closed the distance to start recording? They weren't worried, and German already had the phone out during the Abby picture with BG not in the background. They were weary at some point, but it certainly wasn't when they were halfway across, because they would have fled rather than stopped for pictures of Abby walking on the tracks. By your estimate, 2:00 was roughly 30-40% of the maneuver, yet BG was not on video until probably he was about 90% across. That gives them a ridiculous amount of time to flee, notably, because you can see hundreds of feet down the trail, far past the west side of the ravine during the Abby pic, and BG wasn't on it. So, and I'm just reviewing what you had written, it's about a five-minute walk across the bridge at an average pace, and the victims were clearly over it by the time they were intercepted with no one tailing them for what appeared to be several hundred feet down the tracks. No one is tailing them, yet they feel trapped at the middle of the bridge by their pursuer who isn't remotely close to them, and commit to the crossing where they wait on the east side for 5-10 minutes for the guy to catch them, then wait all that time to fail to flee to three of a possible four directions from their pursuer who had one. That's like someone being killed by a closing garage door with five minutes to get out of the way.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Great post, but I disagree wholeheartedly, and even more so when you detailed how long it would take. They were not cornered by any stretch of the imagination. Moreover, and this is a possibility, they could have only crossed due to being wary of their pursuer, but the Abby photo blows that out of the water because they weren't running from anyone when that was taken. Correct me if I misread, but why would they have waited until BG closed the distance to start recording? They weren't worried, and German already had the phone out during the Abby picture with BG not in the background. Obviously, they were weary at some point, and it certainly wasn't when they were halfway across, because they would have fled rather than stopped for pictures of Abby walking on the tracks. By your estimate, 2:00 was roughly 30-40% of the maneuver, yet BG was not on video until probably he was about 90% across. So, and I'm just reviewing what you had written, it's about a five-minute walk across the bridge at an average pace, and the victims were clearly over it by the time they were intercepted with no one tailing them for what appeared to be several hundred feet down the tracks. So no one is tailing them, yet they feel trapped at the middle of the bridge by their pursuer who isn't remotely close to them, and commit to the crossing where they wait on the east side for 5-10 minutes for the guy to catch them, then wait all that time to fail to flee to three of a possible four directions when their pursuer who only had one. That's like someone being killed by a closing garage door with five minutes to get out of the way.

I think you are playing a bit of Monday morning quarterback here. You know that the man approaching them on the bridge is going to kill them, so it is astonishing to you that they don’t bolt in some direction. They did not know the man intended to kill them. They were wary of him. I think they intended to let him cross and then politely start back across the bridge.

 

[JimmyWells]

I think you are playing a bit of Monday morning quarterback here. You know that the man approaching them on the bridge is going to kill them, so it is astonishing to you that they don’t bolt in some direction. They did not know the man intended to kill them. They were wary of him. I think they intended to let him cross and then politely start back across the bridge.

"Monday morning quarterbacking," is questioning the original quarterback's decisions. LE is the quarterback in this context, and have not divulged enough for me to question.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

"Monday morning quarterbacking," is questioning the original quarterback's decisions. LE is the quarterback in this context, and have not divulged enough for me to question.

You have missed my point. Or avoided it. All just opinions.

 

[Skully]

Great post, but I disagree wholeheartedly, and even more so when you detailed how long it would take. They were not cornered by any stretch of the imagination. Moreover, and this is a possibility, A and L could have only crossed due to being wary of their pursuer, but the Abby photo blows that out of the water because they weren't running from anyone when that was taken. Correct me if I misread, but why would they have waited until BG closed the distance to start recording? They weren't worried, and German already had the phone out during the Abby picture with BG not in the background. Obviously, they were weary at some point, and it certainly wasn't when they were halfway across, because they would have fled rather than stopped for pictures of Abby walking on the tracks. By your estimate, 2:00 was roughly 30-40% of the maneuver, yet BG was not on video until probably he was about 90% across. That gives them a ridiculous amount of time to flee, notably, because you can see hundreds of feet down the trail, far past the west side of the ravine during the Abby pic, and BG wasn't on it. So, and I'm just reviewing what you had written, it's about a five-minute walk across the bridge at an average pace, and the victims were clearly over it by the time they were intercepted with no one tailing them for what appeared to be several hundred feet down the tracks. No one is tailing them, yet they feel trapped at the middle of the bridge by their pursuer who isn't remotely close to them, and commit to the crossing where they wait on the east side for 5-10 minutes for the guy to catch them, then wait all that time to fail to flee to three of a possible four directions from their pursuer who had one. That's like someone being killed by a closing garage door with five minutes to get out of the way.

Yep, I agree. Just food for thought... So if you are a killer and you are planning this horrific crime and you have 2 not 1 victims in mind, would you check out the place first to make sure no one is around or in the area. We know that there is the possibility of other hikers, or homeless camps, so wouldn't it benefit him to be down there first and then come up to the E end of that bridge. That is the reason I think he was already at the end and the girls are going towards him. He may have been sitting on the last platform or just walking towards them and they have to pass. I don't know, but he had to know he wasn't going to get caught down there in the middle of this crime. It was daylight, people were out and about in that park. So anyway, just my thoughts again.

 

[JimmyWells]

Yep, I agree. Just food for thought... So if you are a killer and you are planning this horrific crime and you have 2 not 1 victims in mind, would you check out the place first to make sure no one is around or in the area. We know that there is the possibility of other hikers, or homeless camps, so wouldn't it benefit him to be down there first and then come up to the E end of that bridge. That is the reason I think he was already at the end and the girls are going towards him. He may have been sitting on the last platform or just walking towards them and they have to pass. I don't know, but he had to know he wasn't going to get caught down there in the middle of this crime. It was daylight, people were out and about in that park. So anyway, just my thoughts again.

You and I are in a hundred percent agreement with contentions based on the evidence available, and that's why I know you have experience.