Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[stattlich1]

A stranger stalking the girls would say "Guys" to two girls and not to his accomplices? LE is telling BG that LE knows there is more than one involved, jmho.

The main purpose for the clips are for BG to have a glimpse into evidence captured. DCarter said, "You want to know what we know."

Now here's an angle likely to stir some controversy. I'm not sure this is what you are saying, but it's quite a thought.

What if 'guys' and 'down the hill' weren't directed to the girls at all? As in, BG speaking to 2 or more accomplices, 'guys, lets get 'em down the hill'. Or, spoken in one tone 'guys, looks like we have a little problem here', and when angered a short time later, says 'lets get 'em down the hill'. Is that hill down to the driveway, or hill down to the creek bank?

I've been around for a while. I know the argument for, and against, one suspect, vs. two or more. So LE never indicated there was more than one killer, though I do believe they did slip up a wee bit in one video and allude to such. There is no evidence there was more than one killer. Is there not? We have two sketches, that have been bantered about for years now. LE, that I know of, has never denied more than one person to be involved.

I've not seen proof either way. I do know LE has revealed very little, holds much of what they know top secret, and for me, to remain open to all plausible scenario's is important. Maybe this is the basis for that comment by LE, directed toward the speculators, paraphrasing, 'they have it all wrong'. .

Welcome to my world. Speculation and Opinion, unofficial

 

[Andieinsyd]

It's possible that there was more than one killer there that day, I agree that LE have never confirmed or denied this. However I think if LE knew that there were two killers they would let the public know this. And I think they would know, because it would be in the recorded information that we haven't been able to hear.
My personal take on the two sketches is that they are different representations of the same person. We know that memory can be very unreliable, and it's very possible that different witnesses will remember someone very differently, particularly if they only had a glance at the person. So when LE say that the killer could look somewhere between the two sketches I think that's what they are saying. But they probably don't really know themselves.

I am feeling that BG has long ago left the area. I know that LE have said that he may be local but I just can't see someone committing a murder, being caught on video, have a recording of their voice taken and stick around for someone to say Hey, you looke/sound just like bG. Like some others on this thread I feel that BG is a trucker and knows the area but has not hung around to risk getting caught. Having said this it's very possible he still passes through and I think he can be caught.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

There have been many different versions of this. Kelsi tends to vary and is not always dependably precise. I know it frustrates the guy who does the timeline on Reddit.

I think it would be valuable to know where the shoe was found. But the info likely would have to come from members of the search party, IMO, and not Kelsi. I think it was more of a long distance shouting verification of who the shoe belonged to, than Kelsi seeing for herself.

I tend to doubt the shoe was found on the driveway. I remember Kelsi saying she was with a search party underneath the bridge on that side, when members of another party yelled up after finding the shoe. If they found the shoe on the private drive, then it wouldn't have been yelling up because they would have been on the same level as Kelsi, and not too far away. The driveway runs smack underneath the bridge on that side. This is a photo I took in November 2019. BTW, the most likely area of descent down the second stage of the hill would be center right of the photo, just beyond the largest tree. It isn't obvious in this photo but you really have to backtrack left toward the bridge before that second stage becomes less gnarly and severe:

imgur.com

I think Kelsi was on the driveway level so the group yelling up would have been on the lower level, not far from the creek bank. This is what the dropoff looks like from the driveway level to the lower level. For whatever reason this slope is seldom depicted well. You can see the further right you go the dropoff becomes shorter and less severe, plus there are not as many gnarly roots. The best available spot is roughly 5 yards further right from the end of this photo. You have to backtrack 25 or 30 yards left from the end of the bridge, after going down the first stage of the hill:

imgur.com

Last night Gray Hughes had a 4-hour call-in show on Delphi. I listened to only portions. At one stage (1:58:00) he had a graphic with various points spotlighted, including the location of Libby's shoe. He has it in yellow near the creek bank directly across from the crime scene, and a long way below the driveway. I'm not sure that it correct but it makes sense. If the bodies were spotted not long after Libby's shoe was identified then it has to be via binoculars used from the edge of the creek, and not dozens of yards further away on the private drive. Tree cover would prevent looking across the creek from there. The graphic also indicates that a shoe discovered there would be a long way from underneath the bridge where Kelsi was searching, requiring shouting back and forth. I would estimate the gap is 130 yards:

BTW, in that Gray Hughes video if you freeze the screen at 2:57:02 that is the best indication of where the bodies were found. It is a clip taken within days after the murders. Crime scene tape is still up. Somebody superimposed slide-screen props to attempt to conceal the people in the background. But at 2:57:02 those props slide away briefly and the people in the background are visible. They are standing near the small ridge and condensed circle of trees. I'm not sure if they are family members or investigators. The guy at far left has white hair so it could be Ron Logan.

Th first time I heard the story of the shoe being found it was was said it was found near the creek bank. That remained consistent until very recently. I have no idea why that has changed. I feel confident it was found near the creek bank. It fits into all other descriptions of what happened that morning.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

It's possible that there was more than one killer there that day, I agree that LE have never confirmed or denied this. However I think if LE knew that there were two killers they would let the public know this. And I think they would know, because it would be in the recorded information that we haven't been able to hear.
My personal take on the two sketches is that they are different representations of the same person. We know that memory can be very unreliable, and it's very possible that different witnesses will remember someone very differently, particularly if they only had a glance at the person. So when LE say that the killer could look somewhere between the two sketches I think that's what they are saying. But they probably don't really know themselves.

I am feeling that BG has long ago left the area. I know that LE have said that he may be local but I just can't see someone committing a murder, being caught on video, have a recording of their voice taken and stick around for someone to say Hey, you looke/sound just like bG. Like some others on this thread I feel that BG is a trucker and knows the area but has not hung around to risk getting caught. Having said this it's very possible he still passes through and I think he can be caught.

bbm

The problem with that is: one man had a goatee (sketch #1 OBG) and one was clean shaven (sketch #2 NBG). So I believe, it might be rather two perps than one and they have some family resemblance perhaps and are in their age not as different as it seems from the sketches. Regarding the family resemblance I'm not sure, but I think so atm.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The recordings came from Libby's phone. We don't know how loudly BG was with his commands as the FBI worked their magic on obtaining the best quality possible for their purposes of presentation.

A stranger stalking the girls would say "Guys" to two girls and not to his accomplices? LE is telling BG that LE knows there is more than one involved, jmho.

The main purpose for the clips are for BG to have a glimpse into evidence captured. DCarter said, "You want to know what we know."

Actually you are very right on this, wow: He said "guys" to his mate/s perhaps, and LE wanted to hear BG this one term! Otherwise it doesn't make much sense, why they added the "guys" (except, that there are people, who are using this term often and LE wanted to announce that).

 

[kkdj]

Actually you are very right on this, wow: He said "guys" to his mate/s perhaps, and LE wanted to hear BG this one term! Otherwise it doesn't make much sense, why they added the "guys" (except, that there are people, who are using this term often and LE wanted to announce that).

But I think the way he said "guys" is important.

 

[girlfriday]

So, some kids/people have phones that don't have service through providers. They can still use the phones at places that have free Wi-Fi for social media and messenger that way. No monthly plan needed. Maybe she had one of Libby's old phones. Or even her moms?

Exactly, and prepaid cards too, for actual cellular service can be purchased at a low cost for temporary / limited (monthly or minutes) usage. The low amount of money, to acquire one, is typical of what a teen would have at their personal disposal (money gifts, allowance, etc.). There is also the possibility of a person giving them such card or even a phone that has ongoing service, so they can communicate in a clandestine manner.

 

[Justice101]

My understanding is data recorded from cell tower only contains identifiers of the devices which ping off it, referred to as a tower dump. A tower dump wouldn’t be illegal because it doesn’t disclose confidential information, really no different than a motorist driving down a public highway with his licence plate revealed.

Then from the identifier, if LE has reason to they can apply for a search warrant to obtain the actual cellphone records from the specific company who’s the service provider for whoever signed up for an account involving that particular cellphone. It’s that sort of detailed information that’s not captured from cell towers.

JMO

Fishing expeditions aren't allowed.

That would be be cool except I simply don't believe in psychics. Not one single bit. jmo

And if you did... there is a $1,000,000 prize waiting for you if you can prove it under scientific scrutiny. No takers.

 

[DeDee]

Now here's an angle likely to stir some controversy. I'm not sure this is what you are saying, but it's quite a thought.

What if 'guys' and 'down the hill' weren't directed to the girls at all? As in, BG speaking to 2 or more accomplices, 'guys, lets get 'em down the hill'. Or, spoken in one tone 'guys, looks like we have a little problem here', and when angered a short time later, says 'lets get 'em down the hill'. Is that hill down to the driveway, or hill down to the creek bank?

It is not that I'm saying this is the way it happened but more that it is a suggestion to be considered as I feel the "Guys" audio recording released was meant more as LE speaking to perpetrators. If someone recognizes the voice, tone or words, it'd be so fantastic.

Hence, the "Down the hill" command may have been BG informing others as he sees the girls went that direction after leaving the MHB.

I've been around for a while.

I hopped on this case on Day One and stayed for two years. The only reason I posted again is bc my viewpoints changed.

Thank you, stattlich1. My favorite hat is off to everyone here who's seeking justice for these two special children.

 

[sandy_80]

crimes of this nature is most commonly committed alone ....
also...only one person was recorded and caught on video
one person was seen by witnesses
if there was another.. he would have been recorded .. his voice would have been released ...
I have no reason to think of more than one perp..
guys is very commonly used for everybody.. nothing extraordinary

 

[annemc2]

The recordings came from Libby's phone. We don't know how loudly BG was with his commands as the FBI worked their magic on obtaining the best quality possible for their purposes of presentation.

A stranger stalking the girls would say "Guys" to two girls and not to his accomplices? LE is telling BG that LE knows there is more than one involved, jmho.

The main purpose for the clips are for BG to have a glimpse into evidence captured. DCarter said, "You want to know what we know."

That's interesting. I moved from a "ya'll" area to a "you guys" area (PNW) some time ago so I notice this stuff.

Younger me would have said "ya'll" for more than one person in pretty much any scenario. Now, if I was talking to two boys or a mixed group I would say "guys" or "you guys" and if I was talking to two girls I'd likely say, "girls," "you guys" or "you two" (as opposed to just "guys").

I'd never thought about BG possibly talking to an accomplice before but this line of thought does put the faint possibility into my head.

 

[JenniD]

Been lurking and reading all your comments the last couple days. I too have been thinking about the “guys” and “ down the hill” and the timing of those phrases. I had come up with a scenario that BG might have been telling an accomplice that the girls were “ down the hill” but then realized that Libby could not have recorded those words unless the person speaking was close by- therefore blew my theory

 

[ScumbagTrav]

I'm hoping someone here can help me...

I recall an interview with Jerry Holeman where he is asked, specifically, if they found the murder weapon at the scene. He has a visible reaction, and refuses to answer at that time.

I BELIEVE it was the interview with Fox59 (a screenshot of its preview is attached) however the interview itself is no longer available at the link the FB page provided, or anywhere else on the site.

If I'm not mistaken, Gray Hughes did a LIVE video where he watched and discussed various members of law enforcement being interviewed by different news outlets. In it he watched the Fox59 interview, and another interview with Holeman. He also did a video of all the press conferences, but that was a different video than what I am looking for.

Does anyone know which video Gray did that? I've looked through his video uploads on his YouTube but cannot locate it.

Am I mistaken? Is this a Mandela Effect?

 

[somequestions]

True, there’s plenty of diverging possibilities away from Abby not having a cellphone (in her own name).

The way I see it, the family’s primary objective has been and still is to sustain or create public awareness in this unsolved case. They’ve done an excellent job at doing so. I admire them all as it can’t be easy considering it’s now been almost 4 years.

So as they are confidently supportive of LE’s ongoing efforts to solve this crime, if they’re aware of ANY information which may tip off the unarrested killer or jeopardize the integrity of the investigation, we’re just not going to hear it. We can’t know what we don’t know - including the identity of the killer - and so it goes in virtually every unsolved murder case.

JMO

I think LE's investigation at this point consists of going through the thousands of tips submitted over and over trying to find something. It does not seem like LE has any new information for the family about the case because there is nothing new to report. The case is stuck on the day it started.

There are cases like the Dannis Day case in Colorado where even without a body LE had a good idea who committed the crime. This was an episode of Disappeared called "Daddy's Girl". The sheriff in that case followed his instincts by capturing the suspect committing another unrelated crime to use as a plea bargaining chip to find Dannis Day. It was a smart strategy and one that worked even if the man only got a manslaughter conviction. It took years.

In this case, I think when you have no idea who committed the crime and no idea what they look like(my opinion), it is a lot more difficult.

Eventually people are going to forget and stop discussing Abigail Williams and Liberty German's case because there is nothing else to discuss. It is probably going to take some luck to solve this case.

 

[Yemelyan]

I'm hoping someone here can help me...

I recall an interview with Jerry Holeman where he is asked, specifically, if they found the murder weapon at the scene. He has a visible reaction, and refuses to answer at that time.

I BELIEVE it was the interview with Fox59 (a screenshot of its preview is attached) however the interview itself is no longer available at the link the FB page provided, or anywhere else on the site.

If I'm not mistaken, Gray Hughes did a LIVE video where he watched and discussed various members of law enforcement being interviewed by different news outlets. In it he watched the Fox59 interview, and another interview with Holeman. He also did a video of all the press conferences, but that was a different video than what I am looking for.

Does anyone know which video Gray did that? I've looked through his video uploads on his YouTube but cannot locate it.

Am I mistaken? Is this a Mandela Effect?

I can't help you with which GH video analyzed the interview, but I can confirm it was the Fox 59 interview where Holeman discussed this. As you said, the news station removed it from their site but it was transcribed here in thread 65, it starts around post #185 by @Spellbound.

The relevant question was (this is from @Spellbound 's transcription):

A: Was a weapon left at the scene?

H: uhh, I don't want to answer that at this time, so...

IMO there were two times Holeman showed visible discomfort in this interview, once when asked about a weapon at the scene, and once a few minutes later when he was asked how the recording cut off.

 

[mom2chloe]

Did have Abby a job at something like a fast food restaurant? I noticed, that many American teenagers have jobs in a very young age already.
I remember very vague, to have learned about a job, but I can't find a link.

Kelsi had a job. The girls were too busy with school and extracurriculars to work although they did filing for some cash the day of the murders. IMO

 

[news buff]

Is it known who was at the house the night before the girls went missing?

 

[ScumbagTrav]

I can't help you with which GH video analyzed the interview, but I can confirm it was the Fox 59 interview where Holeman discussed this. As you said, the news station removed it from their site but it was transcribed here in thread 65, it starts around post #185 by @Spellbound.

The relevant question was (this is from @Spellbound 's transcription):

A: Was a weapon left at the scene?

H: uhh, I don't want to answer that at this time, so...

IMO there were two times Holeman showed visible discomfort in this interview, once when asked about a weapon at the scene, and once a few minutes later when he was asked how the recording cut off.

Thank you for providing this!" I appreciate it!

 

[PaulaDC]

Some things that give me pause:

AW appears to be wearing her same clothes and having a near identical hairstyle as she's seen pictured in on the day prior (Feb 12/17).

There weren't any witnesses that saw the girls on the trails on Feb 13/17, other than KG dropping them off (as confirmed by MP & BP, in a recent interview, when asked).

Why wasn't the Snapchat photo of AW used by LE (not on the FBI website, etc.)?

These are just my personal thoughts and questions.

Edit: typo

That's a good question. It would be the most up to date photo of her if they were trying to find witnesses in the early stages.

 

[news buff]

Is it known who was at the house the night before the girls went missing?

Found a partial answer to my own question...

Kelsi German: Well, (Feb. 12) was the last day that we really hung out and did anything together. I remember waking up that day and not really having any plans, and me and my boyfriend and his sister and her boyfriend at the time all decided to go out and have a fun night. And Abby and Libby wanted to go, but I said no, because I was the cool older sister that just wanted to hang out by herself.

Q: Nobody wants an eighth-grader around, right?

German: Exactly. Not when I was 17, I guess. But a little later on, we came home and we ended up having a movie night at the house, and Abby and Libby hung out with us there. We had pizza and garlic knots and just enjoyed a little night at home together.

Delphi murders: Finding Abby and Libby’s killer becomes a calling for sister