Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Ozoner]

Very reasonable, @MistyWaters. I think that the girls were followed for a few days. So, yes, probably he could not have the ticket bought for 2/13. However, he could have had the same plan repeated if they were killed on a different day. Say, 2/15 - route 18 - to 65 = less than 3 hours to Chicago. O’Hare is a major hub. You probably could buy the ticket the same day if it is not a holiday. I can’t imagine the person staying in Delphi or Lafayette or wherever he lives after the murders.

Moving away from Delphi, relocating from “unsafe” place is also a possibility.

Charlot, why do you say that you think the girls were followed for a few days? What evidence do you have to support that assertion?

 

[Matthoughton]

Actually astounded this case didn’t get solved.. hadn’t heard of it before this weekend as I’m over in England but I haven’t stopped reading about it since Friday. this needs locking away.

My 2cents if anyone’s interested...

1) on the note of them being up all night the night before; And I really doubt if this is a probability because i feel like this was a opportunistic crime. SM was a big theory at the start. What about stuff like Omegle maybe? Could of thought they was having a innocent enough conversation (Was kinda big when I was their age) If he knew where the high bridge was (grew up, worked in the area, any million out doorsy jobs that would put him outside) given the day of the week and time of year

2) This was completely random and he went out that day and with the intention to cause harm. I’m more partial to this due to what I believe is a plastic handle of a carrier bag in his coat. (Moo some people think it’s a variety of things) The numerous layers he has on (to the point it makes him look out of preportion, ie his leg size) and the fact his entire body language is focused on them. (He wasn’t just strolling down that bridge, it’s more apparent in the last step he takes as opposed to the first but you can still tell imo)

I don’t think this was anybody they knew because that alone I feel would..disarm 2 teenagers. They wouldn’t of recorded him because they’d of known him. (I’ve had weird people in my neighbourhood as a kid and we knew who they was to a extent; maybe not 100% true story’s or a name but there’d be something that we’d refer to them as) So I feel if she recorded this person because she KNEW he was weird/unstable there’d be some kind of “... is following us and being weird again” instead of just the video.

I am thinking that maybe he waited by the private property side of the bridge? (I’ve only seen YouTube videos and google maps) and maybe saw them crossing on there own; noticed nobody behind them and started walking across too? Libby was like that’s a bit weird... notices he’s got lots of coats on, a weird object (the gun?)in his coat pocket and a plastic bag sticking out of it.. he keeps walking say another 60 foot, they’re still laughing and joking at this point and maybe Abbie noticed that he’d turned back around/was doing so, so Libby being the quick thinker and already thinking it was a bit weird starts recording; Super curious as to what happened after he said ‘Guys..’ Had he already gained control at this point or was that him approaching them? His voice sounds DRASTICALLY different. Much less calm and in control. Libby was also smart enough (Atleast it really seems so due to her immediate actions) to be Atleast aware they can move along that bridge much faster than he’s going to be able too. What made them stay? I find it hard to believe a 13 and 14 year old girl record someone because they get a bad feeling yet wait at the end of the bridge to cross back over.. I dunno...sorry for the wall I’m musing

 

[Number8]

I am thinking that maybe he waited by the private property side of the bridge? (I’ve only seen YouTube videos and google maps) and maybe saw them crossing on there own; noticed nobody behind them and started walking across too? Libby was like that’s a bit weird... notices he’s got lots of coats on, a weird object (the gun?)in his coat pocket and a plastic bag sticking out of it.. he keeps walking say another 60 foot, they’re still laughing and joking at this point and maybe Abbie noticed that he’d turned back around/was doing so, so Libby being the quick thinker and already thinking it was a bit weird starts recording; Super curious as to what happened after he said ‘Guys..’ Had he already gained control at this point or was that him approaching them? His voice sounds DRASTICALLY different. Much less calm and in control. Libby was also smart enough (Atleast it really seems so due to her immediate actions) to be Atleast aware they can move along that bridge much faster than he’s going to be able too. What made them stay? I find it hard to believe a 13 and 14 year old girl record someone because they get a bad feeling yet wait at the end of the bridge to cross back over.. I dunno...sorry for the wall I’m musing

LE has said that the video also catches “criminal activity” (mentioned in many MSM articles including this one New evidence in Indiana murder case led to 1K new tips). I think they noticed a creepy guy hanging out nearby, but perhaps didn’t know how to get back over the bridge without having to pass by him, and he “corralled” them. As a girl/woman, there are lots of times when you notice creepy guys near you but don’t know whether that person is actually a threat. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve felt like I was being “followed” down my street and felt terrified because he was right behind me, but then I cross the street or stop to “tie my shoe” and it’s just a totally clued-out guy who’s not very self-aware. So as a woman your “danger senses” are always tingling but sometimes you don’t know when to trust them. I think they sensed something was off about him, but by the time they realized he was actually a threat (i.e. immediately after he says “guys, down the hill”) he pulls out a gun and it was too late. MOO.

 

[Matthoughton]

LE has said that the video also catches “criminal activity” (mentioned in many MSM articles including this one New evidence in Indiana murder case led to 1K new tips). I think they noticed a creepy guy hanging out nearby, but perhaps didn’t know how to get back over the bridge without having to pass by him, and he “corralled” them. As a girl/woman, there are lots of times when you notice creepy guys near you but don’t know whether that person is actually a threat. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve felt like I was being “followed” down my street and felt terrified because he was right behind me, but then I cross the street or stop to “tie my shoe” and it’s just a totally clued-out guy who’s not very self-aware. So as a woman your “danger senses” are always tingling but sometimes you don’t know when to trust them. I think they sensed something was off about him, but by the time they realized he was actually a threat (i.e. immediately after he says “guys, down the hill”) he pulls out a gun and it was too late. MOO.

Oh, I totally get your point. I’ve had countless phone calls because a friend thought she was being followed or something along those lines; even had to go meet a couple.

My other theory here is could he of potentially said he’s a park official or something of the sort off duty? “Guys, down the hill”
I understand kids are inclined to believe an adult; but one that rang alarm bells? Although I imagine they’d think it’s sort of a pointless lie to make. I would anyway.
ETA: this would also be “criminal activity” I’d assume? (Fraud/impersonating an official or something?) would also imo explain the way he said “guys, down the hill” if he’s just escorted them off it under that guise and he’s still a relative distance behind them

Has it been confirmed the tape is him saying “Guys, down the hill” just repeated it 10/15 times and i must say it COULD be but silence between guys, down the hill feels... off. The way he says Guys seems like his attempting to grab attention. He waited until they’d looked at him, stopped walking etc. Until he finished. If he’s escorting them down the hill surely he’s already fully got there attention? Guys down the hill wouldn’t in my own opinion of needed such a pause. Although like I’ve stated I am British so our linguistic isn’t exactly the same (dialect?)

 

[Vivyinsect]

I don’t think
I ever read the bit about capturing “criminal activity”. I can’t think of it being kept a secret if it was anything but masturbation. Maybe wishful thinking, but I imagine LE would disclose a drug user as it would target a different set of eyes to search their mental database. I also can’t imagine being able to release that kind of activity to the public. It just kind of adds up.

 

[Vivyinsect]

Let’s all hope that the current state of things(lockdowns, contact tracing, etc). leads to boredom on the part of our perpetrator and also the people close to him. I can dream up many scenarios, I can only hope that one brings these girls justice.

 

[Number8]

Let’s all hope that the current state of things(lockdowns, contact tracing, etc). leads to boredom on the part of our perpetrator and also the people close to him. I can dream up many scenarios, I can only hope that one brings these girls justice.

Good lord I hope this perpetrator doesn’t get bored. As I mentioned upthread I think he’s had a significant cooling off period because of the publicity of the case (everyone is on high alert, but he also gets to relive his crime by reading about it constantly in the media). Unfortunately I don’t think that will last. He is brazen, and I can only hope that if or when he tries to strike again, he’s unsuccessful and caught in the act. JMO.

 

[Matthoughton]

Let’s all hope that the current state of things(lockdowns, contact tracing, etc). leads to boredom on the part of our perpetrator and also the people close to him. I can dream up many scenarios, I can only hope that one brings these girls justice.

We can hope. I find it very hard to believe he’s not Atleast had some form of violent/sadist urges since.

ETA: I’m hoping something along those lines will be the golden tip.. someone’s husband used to be abusive but stopped and he’s slowly coming back but I’ve been in denial kinda situation

 

[minazoe]

the devil is always busy. mOO

 

[GoBuckeyes]

thanks, I'm glad there is a thread on Vanessa Ceja Ramirez.

I was surprised to learn she was some distance from where she was last seen on the trails ..so it can be possible she was taken to another area where her body was found. Her phone also pinging at an odd building.

once a killer gets you into a car , you are in big trouble.

they found articles of her clothing quite a distance from her body.

much of this seems similar. we don't even know if the girls were burned. we know nothing..but please don't walk alone in the woods , even in pairs. there is a big chance we may have several killers operating on the trails..In the
general loop of Indiana, Chicago, area.

mOO

Ohio has at least 2 recent unsolved murders occurring on a park trail. Two friends (male and female) were walking and were shot by an as yet unknown assailant(s). Different M.O., but tossing it out there. Last I read, no POI.

 

[Yemelyan]

I don’t think
I ever read the bit about capturing “criminal activity”. I can’t think of it being kept a secret if it was anything but masturbation. Maybe wishful thinking, but I imagine LE would disclose a drug user as it would target a different set of eyes to search their mental database. I also can’t imagine being able to release that kind of activity to the public. It just kind of adds up.

The criminal activity could have been directly related to forcing them down the hill, for example brandishing a weapon (in and of itself a crime), impersonating LE if that was his ruse, even just the abduction itself could have been the aforementioned criminal activity about to begin.

IMO they don't want to reveal these details because they are planning to use this information during interrogation of POIs AND witnesses. If a suspect says, yeah I was there and talked to them but I said this, not that - well, they have the recording. And no one but LE knows for sure what was captured.

It is also a check against which the accuracy of witness testimony can be measured. If someone calls in a tip and says "my friend did this. He told me that he kidnapped two girls by saying he was a cop." But LE knows, from the recording, that a different ruse was used - they know they aren't getting good information.

And at a trial (if there is one) they also want to eliminate the defense of "my client was coerced to say this because this information was already out there in the press." Alternatively, you can imagine a scenario where a defense attorney can cast doubt on prosecution witness testimony by saying "this information was already well known before this person came forward to police because it was reported by the press."

All JMO.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Just noticed that the day of the murders was a couple of days away from the full moon. If we think that the predator was on the hunt for a few days, maybe it is of certain relevance?

Also it could be related to Valentines Day.

 

[Laughing]

Just noticed that the day of the murders was a couple of days away from the full moon. If we think that the predator was on the hunt for a few days, maybe it is of certain relevance?

Also it could be related to Valentines Day.

IMHO, important that this was a Federal holiday. IMHO, this gave AW & LG the day off from school and the perpetrator the day off from his job.

As the Monday of a three-day weekend, the perpetrator may have been able to travel further to be in this location on Monday.

Yes, Valentine's Day could indeed be the cue.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Matthoughton]

Not sure about this, if it had happened in the weekend sometime and he could spend Monday travelling back, maybe. But it didn’t Doesn’t matter how long it takes to get there if he has to be back for a job on Tuesday. Unless you mean he could of gone outside his comfort zone due to more time to survey the area.

As the Monday of a three-day weekend, the perpetrator may have been able to travel further to be in this location on Monday

 

[Peppery]

IMHO, important that this was a Federal holiday. IMHO, this gave AW & LG the day off from school and the perpetrator the day off from his job.

As the Monday of a three-day weekend, the perpetrator may have been able to travel further to be in this location on Monday.

Yes, Valentine's Day could indeed be the cue.

jmho ymmv lrr

It wasn't a federal holiday, Presidents Day was the following Monday, 2/20/17. Its been confirmed this was not a planned day off from school, they were out of school due to not using all the snow days allotted for the year.

 

[Rollsballs]

I did notice that a POI and the BG both seem to have the same liking to a long hem in their pants.. where it wrinkles above the ankle .. hems and length of pants are important to alot of men more than the comfort of the waist.

 

[Peppery]

also in the interest of accuracy, has it ever been confirmed BG said "Guys, down the hill"? I thought Carter said its not necessarily exactly how it was said and there may have been other sound between the guys and the down the hill. Thats always given me the impression that they are part of two different sentences/exchanges. IMO

 

[GoBuckeyes]

The criminal activity could have been directly related to forcing them down the hill, for example brandishing a weapon (in and of itself a crime), impersonating LE if that was his ruse, even just the abduction itself could have been the aforementioned criminal activity about to begin.

IMO they don't want to reveal these details because they are planning to use this information during interrogation of POIs AND witnesses. If a suspect says, yeah I was there and talked to them but I said this, not that - well, they have the recording. And no one but LE knows for sure what was captured.

It is also a check against which the accuracy of witness testimony can be measured. If someone calls in a tip and says "my friend did this. He told me that he kidnapped two girls by saying he was a cop." But LE knows, from the recording, that a different ruse was used - they know they aren't getting good information.

And at a trial (if there is one) they also want to eliminate the defense of "my client was coerced to say this because this information was already out there in the press." Alternatively, you can imagine a scenario where a defense attorney can cast doubt on prosecution witness testimony by saying "this information was already well known before this person came forward to police because it was reported by the press."

All JMO.

I agree with what you wrote. If I understand, you're saying it could be something directly related to committing the abduction and murders, and/or it could be something caught on video that's unrelated or in addition to the crimes committed against A&L. I hope that makes sense. Sorry, very slow brain day.

 

[Yemelyan]

I agree with what you wrote. If I understand, you're saying it could be something directly related to committing the abduction and murders, and/or it could be something caught on video that's unrelated or in addition to the crimes committed against A&L. I hope that makes sense. Sorry, very slow brain day.

I think it's very likely that the criminal activity about to occur (as LE put it) is directly related to the abduction part of this crime.

I also think that the reason that they aren't releasing more of it is to vet the information they receive from potential tips/witnesses and POIs themselves.

@Matthoughton To answer one of your questions (I think this is what you were asking, my apologies if not), LE have never claimed "guys...down the hill" is all part of a singular sentence/phrase. The only thing they've said specifically is that it's one person speaking and is the person on the bridge.

 

[Charlot123]

Charlot, why do you say that you think the girls were followed for a few days? What evidence do you have to support that assertion?

I just feel that it was not a random hit, that he/they targeted one of the girls. I don't know why, and I am not quite sure who was the principal target (my intuitive guess would be, Libby, but it is mostly based on her having more direct access to SM and having more gadgets), and it could have been so that he was just looking for a convenient moment. My logic: if the decision to go to MHB was made at the last moment, and the girls were not a random hit, then he was probably following them for a while, waiting for this moment. My personal feeling, I have no way to prove, or disprove, it. As to evidence, does any of us have more than was officially revealed?