Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[StarryStarryNight]

I do not doubt that LE wants to solve the case. I think they probably spend their days going over old tips and new tips they get in daily.

The problem with releasing any more information is what do you release? Is releasing any more audio going to help identify this person's voice any more than the audio that has already been released? The person on the audio has a voice that sounds rather average. There obviously cannot be any closer video to help with identification or else they would have released it.

Do you start releasing details about the crime scene or unique signatures associated with it? That will probably lead to everyone sending in tips regarding what they think and then trying to link what they think to some person they know or have researched.

Release more audio and a new discussion regarding dialects will start again. I am shocked that anyone on here can determine a person who lives in Michigan versus someone who lives in Ohio based on their voice or speech. I cannot do that. There are some exceptions like someone who lives in the South or on the East coast. I can hear some difference, but someone who lives in the Midwest?

I think the mistake was going away from Liberty German's video in favor of this second sketch. I think it was a guess because they thought it might be connected to a vehicle nearby, but have really no idea if that person is indeed the person responsible for the murders. It was new information released telling people this is the person responsible. And people today are probably still trying to make it fit someone they know.

If this case gets solved it will be interesting to see what this person looked like at the time of the crimes? The irony is that it could be releasing new information that made it more difficult to solve the case.

I definitely don’t think anymore audio and video should be released. And please....no more sketches!
It’s hard to know what might be helpful since we don’t know what LE has as concrete evidence or what the crime scene looks like. I just feel there are two or three things LE could release that someone might recognize. Things they could release without releasing anything else about the scene. Maybe an odd way a knot was tied, a belt buckle, a glove, an odd saying left behind, a unique tool....things like that perhaps. Just thoughts.
It would also be nice if LE would sit down and clarify everything they have said that needed correcting. The sketches, the car at CPS etc. There are a lot of things.
Plus a list of high profile POIs that have been cleared. Say nothing about those that aren’t cleared, but give these guys their lives back and get the public off their backs.
Just my thoughts.

 

[somequestions]

I definitely don’t think anymore audio and video should be released. And please....no more sketches!
It’s hard to know what might be helpful since we don’t know what LE has as concrete evidence or what the crime scene looks like. I just feel there are two or three things LE could release that someone might recognize. Things they could release without releasing anything else about the scene. Maybe an odd way a knot was tied, a belt buckle, a glove, an odd saying left behind, a unique tool....things like that perhaps. Just thoughts.
It would also be nice if LE would sit down and clarify everything they have said that needed correcting. The sketches, the car at CPS etc. There are a lot of things.
Plus a list of high profile POIs that have been cleared. Say nothing about those that aren’t cleared, but give these guys their lives back and get the public off their backs.
Just my thoughts.

I agree that there is probably something that could be released. I was trying to look at it from the LE perspective, especially since the case probably already has over 50,000 tips.

Clarifying a lot of the information would probably help, but also probably lead to more questions. How LE came to the conclusions they did regarding things like the 2nd sketch would be helpful. Maybe they are correct about the information they released in April 2019, but if they are and this person looks anything like the 2nd sketch in age or appearance it is definitely going to change my perspective on LE and investigation.

I do not know where the investigation should go from here.

 

[Charlot123]

ok now that's interesting...may be why they were getting all" still have a shred of decency" or whatever on the BG presser. is this a weird thing to do? do we know of any other cases involving religious objects at the scene or used in staging?

I say if it's true and he did that, it was a dramatic flourish or a red herring. If something like a necklace was broken and found at the scene, I would say it has little value unless it can be identified.

If they had an artifact like this, why wouldn't they show it to the public?

mOO

Or, it could be the necklace from his previous victim. Yes, why wouldn't they?

Maybe a cross or other Christian artifact was left at the scene.

If I saw a cross at the crime scene, I wouldn't be able to say, "religious", or "losing religion".

Driving the victims through the creek and leaving the cross at the CS might allude to "baptism" or "the last rites", though.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I do not doubt that LE wants to solve the case. I think they probably spend their days going over old tips and new tips they get in daily.

The problem with releasing any more information is what do you release? Is releasing any more audio going to help identify this person's voice any more than the audio that has already been released? The person on the audio has a voice that sounds rather average. There obviously cannot be any closer video to help with identification or else they would have released it.

Do you start releasing details about the crime scene or unique signatures associated with it? That will probably lead to everyone sending in tips regarding what they think and then trying to link what they think to some person they know or have researched.

Release more audio and a new discussion regarding dialects will start again. I am shocked that anyone on here can determine a person who lives in Michigan versus someone who lives in Ohio based on their voice or speech. I cannot do that. There are some exceptions like someone who lives in the South or on the East coast. I can hear some difference, but someone who lives in the Midwest?

I think the mistake was going away from Liberty German's video in favor of this second sketch. I think it was a guess because they thought it might be connected to a vehicle nearby, but have really no idea if that person is indeed the person responsible for the murders. It was new information released telling people this is the person responsible. And people today are probably still trying to make it fit someone they know.

If this case gets solved it will be interesting to see what this person looked like at the time of the crimes? The irony is that it could be releasing new information that made it more difficult to solve the case.

I definitely don’t think anymore audio and video should be released. And please....no more sketches!
It’s hard to know what might be helpful since we don’t know what LE has as concrete evidence or what the crime scene looks like. I just feel there are two or three things LE could release that someone might recognize. Things they could release without releasing anything else about the scene. Maybe an odd way a knot was tied, a belt buckle, a glove, an odd saying left behind, a unique tool....things like that perhaps. Just thoughts.
It would also be nice if LE would sit down and clarify everything they have said that needed correcting. The sketches, the car at CPS etc. There are a lot of things.
Plus a list of high profile POIs that have been cleared. Say nothing about those that aren’t cleared, but give these guys their lives back and get the public off their backs.
Just my thoughts.

I agree that there is probably something that could be released. I was trying to look at it from the LE perspective, especially since the case probably already has over 50,000 tips.

Clarifying a lot of the information would probably help, but also probably lead to more questions. How LE came to the conclusions they did regarding things like the 2nd sketch would be helpful. Maybe they are correct about the information they released in April 2019, but if they are and this person looks anything like the 2nd sketch in age or appearance it is definitely going to change my perspective on LE and investigation.

I do not know where the investigation should go from here.

Like you said it would be nice to know what led LE to change directions and specifically release the second sketch. I just took it for granted at the time that there had been some big break. I also thought an arrest was imminent...silly me.
I don’t think telling us why they think so much about the second sketch would harm the investigation, in fact, maybe it would put some pressure on the killer.
Now that I think about it that’s one thing that is sorely missing in this case. Any real pressure on the killer. Minus the manufactured drama of the April 2019 press conference, there is none.

 

[zencompass]

As the anniversary of this horrid crime is coming up, I would like to see law enforcement hold a press conference.

This, at least, would place the case back into public discourse. I'm sure it will be important to the community there and most importantly -for the families of Libby and Abby.

I really hope this occurs. Just my opinion.

 

[Charlot123]

If I were LE, I’d send the first sketch + photo of the BG to owners of realistic masks stores on Etsy and EBay. I think that the change of the sketches was related to the guy’s disguise. There is a chance that he made the masks himself, but less likely. If they don’t want to tell the public know anything, and can’t break the alibi, have them trace the ways to obtain his disguise.

P.S. if he disposed of the mask before leaving, here is your DNA source.
MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

This is JMO since we know basically nothing about the crime scene other than its location, but I think that any religious references made by members of LE are much more likely to be related to the religious sentiments of the people investigating the case and the common feelings of the community in and around Delphi, than they are to be coded statements or clues about evidence or the murderer's personality. Again- just my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If I were LE, I’d send the first sketch + photo of the BG to owners of realistic masks stores on Etsy and EBay. I think that the change of the sketches was related to the guy’s disguise. There is a chance that he made the masks himself, but less likely. If they don’t want to tell the public know anything, and can’t break the alibi, have them trace the ways to obtain his disguise.

P.S. if he disposed of the mask before leaving, here is your DNA source.
MOO

bbm
That would be a nice try and could be done. But if sketch #1 OBG is the possible accomplice, it wouldn't help, unfortunately.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Has the idea of a father & son team been discussed? If so, on what threads? I would love to read them.

 

[cujenn81]

As the anniversary of this horrid crime is coming up, I would like to see law enforcement hold a press conference.

This, at least, would place the case back into public discourse. I'm sure it will be important to the community there and most importantly -for the families of Libby and Abby.

I really hope this occurs. Just my opinion.

I think the ISP press release posted the other day was their way of saying there won’t be one. Unfortunately.

ETA link As We Approach the Four-Year Anniversary of the Abby and Libby Murder Investigation

from press release—
This is all the information that will be released at this time.

 

[Peppery]

The problem with releasing any more information is what do you release? .

snipped for focus

There are two things I think could help and won’t hurt the case, the actual video of him walking and at the actual distance Libby took the video.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think we only have two still frames from LE. I think zooming in so much on the video has distorted him so much that we see things that may or may not be there. Think about his head. In one frame it looks like a hat, in the other frame it looks like a thick head of hair. Do this experiment. Take a video of a person moving and pick two random frames. Zoom it, we don’t know how much, but enough to make it pixelated. Can you be sure of who and what you’re seeing? Sure enough that you’d consider turning them in for a double murder of children?

Even at a distance, even with the rickety bridge affecting his gait, some people have such a distinct way of carrying themselves that doesn’t translate to still photos. My ex has life-long back issues and there is no mistaking him when I see him walking, even if it’s 100 yards away and only for a second and without my glasses, I know it’s him beyond a shadow of a doubt. I’ve taken video of him walking and if I only look at one frame, you can’t see anything that sets him apart from any other man. But less than one second of video and I’d bet my life on knowing it’s him.
MOO

 

[somequestions]

Then DC's religious attitude at the PCs would make more sense, IMO. "The shed" ....

It is not uncommon for criminals to turn to drugs or alcohol after committing a crime like this. Others turn to religion. That is one explanation I can think of. Since we have no idea how Abby and Libby were killed or what the crime scene looked like all we can only speculate. But I have read numerous times that the crime was brutal and unforgettable.

Sometimes people are evil for the purposes of being evil. That is how I looked at it.

 

[TedMac]

I think the ISP press release posted the other day was their way of saying there won’t be one. Unfortunately.

ETA link As We Approach the Four-Year Anniversary of the Abby and Libby Murder Investigation

from press release—
This is all the information that will be released at this time.

I agree and I wish they would hold a press conference and if nothing else, clear up some rumors that are swirling around that they know are not true. I believe that would go a long way towards focusing the community to provide helpful tips. MOO

 

[Awsi Dooger]

snipped for focus

There are two things I think could help and won’t hurt the case, the actual video of him walking and at the actual distance Libby took the video.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think we only have two still frames from LE. I think zooming in so much on the video has distorted him so much that we see things that may or may not be there. Think about his head. In one frame it looks like a hat, in the other frame it looks like a thick head of hair. Do this experiment. Take a video of a person moving and pick two random frames. Zoom it, we don’t know how much, but enough to make it pixelated. Can you be sure of who and what you’re seeing? Sure enough that you’d consider turning them in for a double murder of children?

Even at a distance, even with the rickety bridge affecting his gait, some people have such a distinct way of carrying themselves that doesn’t translate to still photos. My ex has life-long back issues and there is no mistaking him when I see him walking, even if it’s 100 yards away and only for a second and without my glasses, I know it’s him beyond a shadow of a doubt. I’ve taken video of him walking and if I only look at one frame, you can’t see anything that sets him apart from any other man. But less than one second of video and I’d bet my life on knowing it’s him.
MOO

No question I'd prefer the actual perspective, for the reasons you mentioned. I've done golf swing analysis for myself and others. When they try to zoom in on hands or elbows or anything else I might as well not be there. Can't see anything. But as soon as they pull away to a full view okay instantly I can see that takeaway is too far inside and swing plane is overly upright, etc.

However, in this case if they showed the actual distance I think it would have a shell shocking aspect. Bridge Guy would occupy a tiny portion of the screen. It would be obvious he walked into view more than he was the intention of Libby's video. The hero aspect would lessen to some degree, even if unfairly. Bridge Guy would be a negligible portion of a longer video with Abby the spotlight and require Abby to be removed. That's why it is not practical and has not been done, IMO.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

the idea that they have an unnamed suspect who they are certain is the perp and have not found a way to charge him after all this time seems impossible to me.

Multiply impossible by more impossible and it reaches my opinion of that theory.

It is the most exasperating theory on this case, alone with the catfishing belief.

I always looks at the odds aspect. Does anyone actually believe that is the favorite, that more likely than not they know who did this? If so the entirety of the investigation makes no sense at all. In the early days there were numerous search warrants. So obviously they don't have the guy pinpointed at that point. Then they chase Daniel Nations and anyone else whose name surfaces. Robert Ives in "Scene of the Crime" podcast conceded that during his tenure they had some names in mind but were never close to charging anyone or being confident they knew who had done it.

Most telling of all, Ives said he initially went along with the local angle but then started to believe it was a guy just passing through. That in itself screams that there was nothing in the early days or from the crime scene that certified this had to be a local. Ives is the best spoken and most reliably candid of the bunch.

The change of sketch meant the first two years was wasted chasing the wrong guy. Then when the second (actually first) sketch was released they supply 18-40 age bracket, which means they are still hunting. Why allow tips on a 38 year old if you know darn well who did it and he's 24? Plus if they knew who did it they would be able to connect him to specific vehicles instead of desperately asking about a vehicle parked for 5 hours alongside the CPS building 26 months earlier.

Leazenby says they go back and forth on one or two perpetrators. Carter and Leazenby cop out and say it could be a combination of the two sketches. In other words, they want anyone to fit instead of knowing exactly who fits.

More than anything, if they know who did it, that guy and his family are hounded. Law enforcement doesn't sit back and say oh well, nothing we can do. There are countless cases in which the offender is known. We've seen those videos of the guy being tracked all over town and being well aware of it, to the point the entire family becomes frustrated and often is seen flipping off the police or going on local media protesting innocence and harassment. The Heather Elvis case and pursuit of Sidney and Tammy Moorer is an example of how it plays out when law enforcement indeed knows who did it in an emotional high profile murder case.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Multiply impossible by more impossible and it reaches my opinion of that theory.

It is the most exasperating theory on this case, alone with the catfishing belief.

I always looks at the odds aspect. Does anyone actually believe that is the favorite, that more likely than not they know who did this? If so the entirety of the investigation makes no sense at all. In the early days there were numerous search warrants. So obviously they don't have the guy pinpointed at that point. Then they chase Daniel Nations and anyone else whose name surfaces. Robert Ives in "Scene of the Crime" podcast conceded that during his tenure they had some names in mind but were never close to charging anyone or being confident they knew who had done it.

Most telling of all, Ives said he initially went along with the local angle but then started to believe it was a guy just passing through. That in itself screams that there was nothing in the early days or from the crime scene that certified this had to be a local. Ives is the best spoken and most reliably candid of the bunch.

The change of sketch meant the first two years was wasted chasing the wrong guy. Then when the second (actually first) sketch was released they supply 18-40 age bracket, which means they are still hunting. Why allow tips on a 38 year old if you know darn well who did it and he's 24? Plus if they knew who did it they would be able to connect him to specific vehicles instead of desperately asking about a vehicle parked for 5 hours alongside the CPS building 26 months earlier.

Leazenby says they go back and forth on one or two perpetrators. Carter and Leazenby cop out and say it could be a combination of the two sketches. In other words, they want anyone to fit instead of knowing exactly who fits.

More than anything, if they know who did it, that guy and his family are hounded. Law enforcement doesn't sit back and say oh well, nothing we can do. There are countless cases in which the offender is known. We've seen those videos of the guy being tracked all over town and being well aware of it, to the point the entire family becomes frustrated and often is seen flipping off the police or going on local media protesting innocence and harassment. The Heather Elvis case and pursuit of Sidney and Tammy Moorer is an example of how it plays out when law enforcement indeed knows who did it in an emotional high profile murder case.

I like this post times a million.
You covered it all.

 

[cujenn81]

I think this interview with Anna Williams has already been posted here but I’m sharing it just in case. There’s quite a bit of information and insight here.
https://youtu.be/p9B7B0Nv6cQ

My main takeaways or hmmmm.... moments —

AW estimates FIFTY people were on the trails that day. (I had been thinking it was more like 15!)

(Per AW) LE was confident they had determined the identity of the man depicted in the first sketch and were able to rule him out. That’s why LE changed direction and released the second sketch. They chose to initially release the first sketch rather than the second because it was favored by the majority of the witnesses. The way I understand it (for example) is if there were 50 people who offered descriptions, 45 described the man in the first sketch and 5 described the man depicted in the second sketch. IOW the second sketch was their backup plan IMO.

When asked about DNA, there was a lot of talk about transference of touch DNA. I got the impression that any DNA they may have recovered was useless because it belonged to a family member.

The video is a bit lengthy but it’s worth checking out.

 

[K.jill]

Does anyone know if there have been any other notable murders, unusual deaths or disappearances in the Delphi area in the last 15 years? I know about the Flora fire but I’m wondering if there’s anything else, even if it is a different type of victim or circumstance.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I think this interview with Anna Williams has already been posted here but I’m sharing it just in case. There’s quite a bit of information and insight here.

My main takeaways or hmmmm.... moments —

AW estimates FIFTY people were on the trails that day. (I had been thinking it was more like 15!)

(Per AW) LE was confident they had determined the identity of the man depicted in the first sketch and were able to rule him out. That’s why LE changed direction and released the second sketch. They chose to initially release the first sketch rather than the second because it was favored by the majority of the witnesses. The way I understand it (for example) is if there were 50 people who offered descriptions, 45 described the man in the first sketch and 5 described the man depicted in the second sketch. IOW the second sketch was their backup plan IMO.

When asked about DNA, there was a lot of talk about transference of touch DNA. I got the impression that any DNA they may have recovered was useless because it belonged to a family member.

The video is a bit lengthy but it’s worth checking out.

Thanks for this. This is very interesting.
If the guy in the first sketch was found and ruled out, and if they went with that sketch for seemingly legitimate reasons, then why not just tell the public so we can all move on together. Instead they just allow us all to speculate to infinity about what it all means. I don’t get it. Why can’t they just be up front and honest about these kind of things. Are they afraid it will make them look bad? Too late on that one I’m afraid.

 

[Charlot123]

No question I'd prefer the actual perspective, for the reasons you mentioned. I've done golf swing analysis for myself and others. When they try to zoom in on hands or elbows or anything else I might as well not be there. Can't see anything. But as soon as they pull away to a full view okay instantly I can see that takeaway is too far inside and swing plane is overly upright, etc.

However, in this case if they showed the actual distance I think it would have a shell shocking aspect. Bridge Guy would occupy a tiny portion of the screen. It would be obvious he walked into view more than he was the intention of Libby's video. The hero aspect would lessen to some degree, even if unfairly. Bridge Guy would be a negligible portion of a longer video with Abby the spotlight and require Abby to be removed. That's why it is not practical and has not been done, IMO.

Very wise observation.