Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

The other day we talked about whether or not Tobe Leazenby had ever said the POI (not his word) list was narrowed down, and I said I had never once heard that. I still maintain I have not heard it repeatedly, but did want to follow up with his exact words from the HLN Down the Hill TV show from Feb. 14-15.
I think the conversation was removed from here, probably because it was all vague and unsubstantiated.
I hope it's solid now to post it with the exact transcription from the show. He does say "In my own mind" but also says "we." If he is talking straight here, I think the original poster (one of the "Angel" names -- sorry, I can't remember which) was correct. It does appear there is some focus on a very small list of individuals. I'm not sure how I missed hearing this part.

From HLN Down the Hill tv show Feb 14 or 15.
Anchor: When we spoke to you in September, you said that you had a handful of names in your head that you couldn't get out of your head.
Tobe: Um hum
Anchor: You said five.
Tobe: Um hum
Anchor: Has that changed since then? Have you added any? Have you taken any away?
Tobe: I think in my own mind that possibly at this stage we have narrowed that list down. Um. You know maybe, three or four. It's not uh a huge change. But again I still fall back on, you know, no one, no one is incarcerated -- at this point so I can't totally say okay we are done with this individual and we go on to the next one. Eventually that is where we want to be is down to that one.

So was Tobe saying that if said POI was incarcerated the list would get smaller?
My pea brain cannot think of what one specific piece of the puzzle they need that has anything to do with someone going to jail/prison. Unless it’s a DNA match they’re looking for. mOO.

Anyone care to share their opinion about this?
Also, @Marzipan, tysm for going back to listen AND transcribe it for us!!!! <3 high five!

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I vaguely remembering reading that I believe (don’t hold me to it) that the ISP spokesperson who just recently retired, said something along the lines of the video also captured one of the girls reactions to what was taking place, after BG said “guys, DTH”.
I am not sure if I read it on thread 129 or if I saw it on a YouTube video/podcast, or if someone posted about that or an article with a link attached.
So all I’m going to say about that right now is MOO, and I hope this post of mine does not get deleted.

 

[Boxer]

If there is more recording of BG, he may have said something LE wants to keep out of the public. It may be how he coaxed the girls to go down the hill. Only the killer would know how he got them to go with him. This is all speculation. You may be right and that’s all they have.

MOO they have been consistent in saying there are no more words by BG on the recording.

 

[Yemelyan]

But LE is not going to say everything they know so yes, TL did say that, but doesn't mean that is all they have.
They would not want to tip BG off with more info IMO

Again I would ask...why lie, though? When "I can't answer for evidentiary reasons" would do.

Don't forget that just like anything an individual says in an interview with police can be used against them (if cautioned), things TL or anyone representing the investigation says in the press can be used as well, by a defense attorney at trial. That's why they are always careful to say "person or persons" etc. IMO it could potentially cast a lot of doubt in a jury's mind if it's brought up that LE said there were no other words on the audio, if there really were. So why throw something out that's a complete lie when you can say "no comment"?

 

[Yemelyan]

So was Tobe saying that if said POI was incarcerated the list would get smaller?
My pea brain cannot think of what one specific piece of the puzzle they need that has anything to do with someone going to jail/prison. Unless it’s a DNA match they’re looking for. mOO.

Anyone care to share their opinion about this?
Also, @Marzipan, tysm for going back to listen AND transcribe it for us!!!! <3 high five!

He's saying, IMO, that he has a list of 3-4 people who still seem like they could be POIs to him, however, there are missing pieces on all of them that prevent them being named THE suspect. Until such a time when LE has THE suspect in custody and charged with the murders, he's not ready to fully say "we have narrowed it down to the one person who is responsible." IMO

 

[Yemelyan]

I vaguely remembering reading that I believe (don’t hold me to it) that the ISP spokesperson who just recently retired, said something along the lines of the video also captured one of the girls reactions to what was taking place, after BG said “guys, DTH”.
I am not sure if I read it on thread 129 or if I saw it on a YouTube video/podcast, or if someone posted about that or an article with a link attached.
So all I’m going to say about that right now is MOO, and I hope this post of mine does not get deleted.

Sgt. Riley talks about this in episode 2 of the podcast DTH. I'm paraphrasing but he says that he is a parent and it was heart wrenching listening to one girl's reaction to what was happening but he doesn't want to say which one.

JMO but from what TL has said regarding the length of the video I believe her reaction KR is talking about is in response to being abducted on the south end of the bridge.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Again I would ask...why lie, though? When "I can't answer for evidentiary reasons" would do.

Don't forget that just like anything an individual says in an interview with police can be used against them (if cautioned), things TL or anyone representing the investigation says in the press can be used as well, by a defense attorney at trial. That's why they are always careful to say "person or persons" etc. IMO it could potentially cast a lot of doubt in a jury's mind if it's brought up that LE said there were no other words on the audio, if there really were. So why throw something out that's a complete lie when you can say "no comment"?

Fair enough....and that is likely why they were almost mute about the audio for so long (and TL should have maintained that silence, JMO.)

But.....I also believe that if anything was going to cast doubt in a potential juror's mind and be used by a Defence Attorney, it would be the conflicting information they have released about the two sketches....NOT whether or not they held back info regarding additional audio of his voice.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/isp-were-one-tip-away-from-solving-delphi-murders

"I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”

Delphi murders: New suspect sketch not same man as in old sketch, ISP clarifies

"On Wednesday, police emphasized that a new sketch of a suspect’s face is not supposed to be a different take on a composite sketch of a heavier, older-looking man. They are, according to Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley, not the same person."

Once this guy is arrested and this case goes to trial, I think this case is going to have masses of people shaking their heads in disbelief as to the cards LE held back in their hand.

All JMO

 

[SeattleStew]

Fair enough....and that is likely why they were almost mute about the audio for so long (and TL should have maintained that silence, JMO.)

But.....I also believe that if anything was going to cast doubt in a potential juror's mind and be used by a Defence Attorney, it would be the conflicting information they have released about the two sketches....NOT whether or not they held back info regarding additional audio of his voice.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/isp-were-one-tip-away-from-solving-delphi-murders

"I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”

Delphi murders: New suspect sketch not same man as in old sketch, ISP clarifies

"On Wednesday, police emphasized that a new sketch of a suspect’s face is not supposed to be a different take on a composite sketch of a heavier, older-looking man. They are, according to Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley, not the same person."

Once this guy is arrested and this case goes to trial, I think this case is going to have masses of people shaking their heads in disbelief as to the cards LE held back in their hand.

All JMO

"I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”

MOO. Interesting statement, thank you for posting this. Who would be a combination of those two sketches? Two men related to each other through genetics?

 

[JnRyan]

I sometimes can't get over the contrast between LE agencies when it comes to publicly released info. For almost two years here, ISP 1Sgt Holeman, the lead ISP investigator, stated they would neither confirm nor deny whether or not they had DNA in the Delphi case. (I know he said it on stage during the 2018 CrimeCon.) Now today, I look at another case, the 2015 murder of Elizabeth Salgado in UT. Elizabeth's remains weren't found for years after her disappearance and in an outdoor 'remote' location. Today LE states they have male DNA from a penny found at the scene where Elizabeth was recovered.

 

[Yemelyan]

Fair enough....and that is likely why they were almost mute about the audio for so long (and TL should have maintained that silence, JMO.)

But.....I also believe that if anything was going to cast doubt in a potential juror's mind and be used by a Defence Attorney, it would be the conflicting information they have released about the two sketches....NOT whether or not they held back info regarding additional audio of his voice.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/isp-were-one-tip-away-from-solving-delphi-murders

"I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”

Delphi murders: New suspect sketch not same man as in old sketch, ISP clarifies

"On Wednesday, police emphasized that a new sketch of a suspect’s face is not supposed to be a different take on a composite sketch of a heavier, older-looking man. They are, according to Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley, not the same person."

Once this guy is arrested and this case goes to trial, I think this case is going to have masses of people shaking their heads in disbelief as to the cards LE held back in their hand.

All JMO

I agree with you on all points, actually. TL should have remained silent (interesting as it was to hear that detail), I also think we will be surprised with what they've held back when all is said and done, and yes, they have muddied the waters with the sketches for sure.

IMO sketches are produced for LE to use as an investigative tool much more often than the public sees them. Often they are circulated internally but not released to the press, and they are usually used for LE to rule POIs out, not for members of the public to rule people in (this is the exact opposite of how the sketches have been used by the public in the Delphi case). When sketches are used to generate leads from the public, as in the Delphi case, it makes you wonder about the rest of the evidence police are working with and how confirmatory it is.

I think the more damaging comment with regard to the sketches was not DC's oft-ridiculed "he may look like a combination of the two" but the ISP's press release referring to the old BG sketch as "a person". Sketches are not photographs, they are not "people," they are memories. As stated in this excellent article about composites, due to the mistakes of memory, they could be - and often are - an entirely made up jumble of features:

"These are not photographs," said Karen Newirth, a senior staff attorney who focuses on eyewitness identification in the Innocence Project's strategic litigation unit. "They could just be made up faces that were created through this process."

I think it is a mistake for LE to refer to the old BG sketch as a person who has been cleared. This may be a useful way to get the public on board with the idea that it is now the secondary sketch, but it's misleading as to what sketches are, as a tool.

From the same article:

The role of these sketches is to be "helpful," said Paul Johnson, a retired forensic artist who worked for the St. Paul Police Department and the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. The police "need this stuff," he said. "They have to determine themselves how to assimilate (it)." He said composite drawings can clear suspects. "Like this suspect doesn't look anything like the sketch — not at all," Johnson said. "He's got the wrong color hair, all this kind of stuff. And that's what it does. It rules out. More than actually having to look like somebody, it rules out people it is not."

Much more here:

Not photographs: The misunderstood police composite sketch | In the Dark | APM Reports

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The communication by LE in this case has been muddled and confusing from the outset. What I really don’t understand is why , over four years, that hasn’t improved. LE has made themselves available, and granted tons of interviews, and they all have just added to the confusion. Their attempts at correcting things usually only add to the confusion. They think they are helping us understand but all it does is fuel wild speculations.

 

[Yemelyan]

"I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”

MOO. Interesting statement, thank you for posting this. Who would be a combination of those two sketches? Two men related to each other through genetics?

Check out the article about composite sketches I just posted upthread and I think it will make more sense.

Sketches are not ever going to be an exact representation of a POI's face. They are often drawn vaguely or with some features deliberately emphasized, like caricatures (as stated in the article). They aren't meant to be exact, they are meant to rule out or jog the memory of people who know the POI personally.

IMO DC meant that when the person who murdered Abby and Libby is caught, due to the inexact method of creating sketches, don't be surprised if some features look more like sketch one and others like sketch two.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I agree, they have muddied the waters with the sketches for sure. IMO sketches are produced for LE to use as an investigative tool much more often than the public sees them. Often they are circulated internally but not released to the press, and they are usually used for LE to rule POIs out, not for members of the public to rule people in (this is the exact opposite of how the sketches have been used by the public in the Delphi case). When sketches are used to generate leads from the public, as in the Delphi case, it makes you wonder about the rest of the evidence police are working with and how confirmatory it is.

I think the more damaging comment with regard to the sketches was not DC's oft-ridiculed "he may look like a combination of the two" but the ISP's press release referring to the old BG sketch as "a person". Sketches are not photographs, they are not "people," they are memories. As stated in this excellent article about composites, due to the mistakes of memory, they could be - and often are - an entirely made up jumble of features:

"These are not photographs," said Karen Newirth, a senior staff attorney who focuses on eyewitness identification in the Innocence Project's strategic litigation unit. "They could just be made up faces that were created through this process."

I think it is a mistake for LE to refer to the old BG sketch as a person who has been cleared. This may be a useful way to get the public on board with the idea that it is now the secondary sketch, but it's misleading as to what sketches are, as a tool.

From the same article:

The role of these sketches is to be "helpful," said Paul Johnson, a retired forensic artist who worked for the St. Paul Police Department and the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. The police "need this stuff," he said. "They have to determine themselves how to assimilate (it)." He said composite drawings can clear suspects. "Like this suspect doesn't look anything like the sketch — not at all," Johnson said. "He's got the wrong color hair, all this kind of stuff. And that's what it does. It rules out. More than actually having to look like somebody, it rules out people it is not."

Much more here:

Not photographs: The misunderstood police composite sketch | In the Dark | APM Reports

I am not attempting to be adversarial about this..... I do appreciate you providing a logical argument about the sketches along with the article. I can see how they can be used as a tool as long as people understand they are not exact replicas of what a person looks like.

JMO but they should have either released BOTH sketches at the same time, released the first sketch drawn back in Feb 2017 and then released the second sketch in July 2017 or neither sketch at all. But then again, I am just an ousider looking in with a jaded perspective.

From the same article I linked above there is a statement that indicates that it is two different people.

Riley also said Wednesday that the original sketch – released in the summer of 2017, showing a man with a goatee and a driving cap – is “not presently a person of interest in this investigation.”

In fact, in one of the podcasts I listened to, Anna Williams even goes into detail about the sketches in this interview with Jason Hebert and says that on April 22nd, LE told her that is was two different people.

Around 8 mins in

AW: "What we were told when we were brought in to see the second sketches..... we've run this first sketch....we feel like we know who this person might be, or we've cleared up this particular person and now we are going to look at another person that other people also noticed might have been there that day and now we would like to talk to that person."

Anna does go on to speak to your point about 10 different people seeing different things during the same event (ie: a robbery)

A moment later she goes on to say what LE communicated to her about the change in direction:

AW:"Now we want to see who else may have seen this person because we have talked to everybody else concerning the first person."

I will continue to think that there were two people being represented with the two sketches until I see something in black and white from LE that I can finally believe. I realize they don't 'owe' the public this info, but it surely would be nice to have clarity once and for all.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Check out the article about composite sketches I just posted upthread and I think it will make more sense.

Sketches are not ever going to be an exact representation of a POI's face. They are often drawn vaguely or with some features deliberately emphasized, like caricatures (as stated in the article). They aren't meant to be exact, they are meant to rule out or jog the memory of people who know the POI personally.

IMO DC meant that when the person who murdered Abby and Libby is caught, due to the inexact method of creating sketches, don't be surprised if some features look more like sketch one and others like sketch two.

I agree, a sketch is not going to convict anyone.

When the suspect is eventually arrested I don’t think the witness/es is going to be the smoking gun either as they were not eye witnesses who were present when the murders took place. Often in movies an eye witness will be asked to point to the person he or she sighted (drum role), did you see so-and-so shoot AB and naturally all eyes turn to the accused.

But in this case evidence is necessary to link the accused to actually committing the murders, the sighting is secondary because it doesn’t prove the person who was sighted is who murdered the girls, even if they were in the area at the time. It only proves that person didn’t come forward and admit it to LE. The witness/sketch is a tool LE is using to seek further evidence to solve this crime, to prove a suspect is also responsible for committing the murders and that’s what’ll be critical to any future prosecution.

Just my opinion......

 

[bradfordsleuth]

"I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”

MOO. Interesting statement, thank you for posting this. Who would be a combination of those two sketches? Two men related to each other through genetics?

Brothers (identical twins?), father and son, cousins, uncle and nephew....

JMO

 

[Jax49]

Seems Carter believes there is one murderer? bbm

Carter said. "I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”

https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/isp-were-one-tip-away-from-solving-delphi-murders

 

[photographer4]

I have jumped ahead on this thread by several pages so this may have already been mentioned previously and I missed it.

Why NOW are they finally giving us this piece of information?
That there is nothing else that is audible from the suspect on it?

For 4 years they have have pretty much clammed up tight and not confirmed anything at all about this audio (other than Abby and Libby were talking about 'stuff girls talk about' and I think it was TL that may have previously mentioned that the murders were not caught on the audio.)

Either they don't mind that they are now making themselves look somewhat foolish (JMO) for holding back for TWO YEARS the groundbreaking word 'guys' and then finally releasing it....only to tell us TWO YEARS after that that "that's all folks!"

Sorry - I am going to go with the unpopular opinion here.....I am calling bulls*it.
I just ain't buying what is being sold here.

I think they have more of his voice and they are trying to rattle his cage.

JMO

I believe they DO have more on the recording. Whether that is the girls, the killer's voice or some sound effects we're not yet aware of - I think there is something more. LE have said there are "items" they keep going back to on the phone. Why would they, if there was literally nothing else audible?

 

[MistyWaters]

Seems Carter believes there is one murderer? bbm



https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/isp-were-one-tip-away-from-solving-delphi-murders

Good point. He’s not referring to two different people, he’s attempting to backtrack away from his earlier misleading remark about the sketch he claimed was the person responsible for the murders. This was quite a revelation (snark)! He’s been better off to just admit he misspoke IMO.

“The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls,”
‘We also believe this person is from Delphi’: Police release new sketch, additional information in Delphi murder investigation | Fox 59

 

[photographer4]

That one piece, possibly being an alibi, IMO
Or could be what you mentioned above, but I always thought it was alibi.

"Investigators are attempting to independently corroborate alibis that didn't add up, and if need be, find out why there are discrepancies." - Tobe Leazenby, Journal and Courier, p. A4. March 16, 2017.

Even by that date, well before the official announcement in the press conference, LE were already saying they may have already spoken with the killer or someone close to him.

I think police already have met with the killer or someone close to him, and they already know his alibi didn't quite check out for whatever reason. Maybe it was off by just a few minutes, or there was something else about it that made it worrisome to detectives. I'm not sure, but I believe that they have a pretty good idea who did this, and just need someone close to him to blow the whistle.

The other thing I think they're worried about is a possible false confession. They're not releasing much of anything to avoid this possibility from screwing up getting whoever actually did it. So by sitting on the cause of death, or specifics about the case, they have questions they can ask whoever comes forward (witnesses or suspect) to rule them in or out. A few wrong answers, and they know they can move on, assuming they believe the answers they're given.

 

[Yemelyan]

I believe they DO have more on the recording. Whether that is the girls, the killer's voice or some sound effects we're not yet aware of - I think there is something more. LE have said there are "items" they keep going back to on the phone. Why would they, if there was literally nothing else audible?

My impression was that the things they are still following into could be visual items, not audible ones. Perhaps they are trying to refine height estimates, brand of shoes, brand of coat, gait analysis, etc. I know they aren't working with much detail in the image though.