Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[Ozoner]

TL said that on the HLN special-- speaking about possible names/people
"" that possibly at this stage, we have narrowed that list down, you know, maybe, you know, 3 to 3 or 4.
Transcript of Chapter 9: Three Februaries from Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders podcast | Happy Scribe Public

I stand corrected on their use of that term, but it still doesn't mean that BG was ever on their list of POIs.

 

[No it's not]

RL has something like 20 plus acres of wooded property along the creek, I think. He said himself it's hard to navigate, and I don't know where all he might have looked. There was tape left behind in the location we've all seen below the cemetery, but LE has never confirmed that as the location of the murders, have they? I don't doubt they might have exited the creek there, or evidence of one sort or another was found there. But I have conflicts with settling 100% on that being the final crime scene...JMO

According to the Carroll County interview from 2/17-2021 with Tobe Leazenby the girls were killed, where they were found:

Quote
Question: Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?
Leazenby: Based on information known yes.

-Nin

(Note, we do not know in what condition the victims were, when they reached their final location. Did they walk there? Were they dragged there? We only know they must have been alive at that point. ALL IMO)

 

[photographer4]

According to the Carroll County interview from 2/17-2021 with Tobe Leazenby the girls were killed, where they were found:

Quote
Question: Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?
Leazenby: Based on information known yes.

-Nin

(Note, we do not know in what condition the victims were, when they reached their final location. Did they walk there? Were they dragged there? We only know they must have been alive at that point. ALL IMO)

Ok, so I wonder, is it realistic for the killer to have dragged his victims to wherever they were found? I imagine that would require a LOT of work! And that is rough terrain. Per the FBI website, Libby was 200lbs. Abby was 100lbs or so.
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/abigail-williams/@@download.pdf

LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI


That's 300lbs total between the two girls. I find it hard to believe that the killer dragged their bodies anywhere really, UNLESS, he used some sort of device to do so, eg: a deer sled thing that a hunter might use? But unless one was found at the scene, either placed ahead by the killer, I don't see how he would have had access to one?

 

[Ursamajr]

I hate to keep harping on it, and I'll likely have to eat a whole bunch of crow when the truth finally is revealed, but what BG looked like after the murders wouldn't matter a hill of beans if he simply walked up that hill, got in his car at the cemetery, and drove away.

I'm in total agreement with this. The entire area is so remote that I think there is good chance he wasnt spotted at all. If he arrived through the cemetery he could have taken his time until he spotted Abby and Libby. He didn't have to worry about being spotted hanging around on a trail since he wasnt/didn't have to be on one until he stepped on the bridge if he didn't want to. Then, the crime scene was so close to the cemetary that he also didnt have to step onto a trail and probably could have made it out and into his car in minutes.

I can't believe we are still here. Four years. The case should have been closed so long ago.

 

[sunshineray]

Ok, so I wonder, is it realistic for the killer to have dragged his victims to wherever they were found? I imagine that would require a LOT of work! And that is rough terrain. Per the FBI website, Libby was 200lbs. Abby was 100lbs or so.
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/abigail-williams/@@download.pdf

LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI


That's 300lbs total between the two girls. I find it hard to believe that the killer dragged their bodies anywhere really, UNLESS, he used some sort of device to do so, eg: a deer sled thing that a hunter might use? But unless one was found at the scene, either placed ahead by the killer, I don't see how he would have had access to one?

Personally, I think he used the sight of a gun to intimidate, control and bring them where he wanted them. It makes my blood cold thinking of their terror.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

It's entirely possible that BG is not even on their list of suspects.

Huge favoritism that he wouldn't be on a list of 3-4 suspects

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Every time I see a video of someone driving back road 300, I don't see any other cars. Granted, I don't watch all of them end to end, but I think one should understand there simply isn't anyone around.

Every time I see video of that cemetery, some yt'er, or blogger drives through it, guess what.....it's empty, nobody around.

I'll be quiet now

All MOO.

Don't be quiet about it. The popular trail with 50 people theme has totally screwed up perspective of this case. Since it's such a high profile case everyone is desperate for more info and more anecdotes. We don't have cameras all over the place to supply those details so we have to pretend people were all over the place.

Meanwhile we're guessing at everything, including when he arrived, when and where he saw the girls, how long the crime took, when and where he departed, etc. That should be just a slight hint toward the attendance realities on that trail and nearby.

 

[Ozoner]

Don't be quiet about it. The popular trail with 50 people theme has totally screwed up perspective of this case. Since it's such a high profile case everyone is desperate for more info and more anecdotes. We don't have cameras all over the place to supply those details so we have to pretend people were all over the place.

Meanwhile we're guessing at everything, including when he arrived, when and where he saw the girls, how long the crime took, when and where he departed, etc. That should be just a slight hint toward the attendance realities on that trail and nearby.

So it wasn't really a "target-rich" environment. That makes me wonder how fussy he was when it came to selecting his victims. Either he was very patient—possibly lurking on that trail or other trails for days or weeks—or he wasn't too fussy. If he wasn't very fussy, then other victims that are out there may not be much of a match for Abby and Libby. Ages could very widely; gender might even be a toss up.

ETA: I think there's a certain type of offender out there who sees a location once and thinks, "This would be a perfect place to kill somebody." That type of offender logs the site in the back of his mind somewhere and might come back to the spot years later. Most visitors to that trail system are probably locals, but locals might take visiting friends and relatives to it, too. BG's connection to the area might be trivial.

 

[Angels27]

Interesting motive.

 

[TL4S]

According to the Carroll County interview from 2/17-2021 with Tobe Leazenby the girls were killed, where they were found:

Quote
Question: Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?
Leazenby: Based on information known yes.

-Nin

(Note, we do not know in what condition the victims were, when they reached their final location. Did they walk there? Were they dragged there? We only know they must have been alive at that point. ALL IMO)

I agree that LE has said they were killed where they were found, and I fully believe that. But to my knowledge, LE has never confirmed that the taped-off location south of the cemetery is where they were found. I know this is the assumed location because of RL interviews, media articles/photos, and family leaving flowers; it might well be. I've hesitated a long time to put this on here, but here's what causes conflict in me:

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

On Monday, February 13th, at approximately 1:00 p.m., the two young girls were let off near the Monon High Bridge, an abandoned rail bridge over Deer Creek to walk around and hang out. They were to be picked up later in the afternoon, but did not show up there at the previously arranged time. Following an extensive search, at approximately 12:15 p.m.on February 14, 2017, the bodies of the two girls were found in a wooded area near the Delphi Historic Trail, approximately one-half mile upstream from the bridge.

No matter where I measure from anywhere on the bridge to the location south of the cemetery (as the crow flies, via the flow of the creek, from north, middle, or south end of the bridge), it is nowhere near "one-half mile." It's closer to one-quarter mile or less. I'm marking one measurement on a map, for simplicity, but I've done many others and none work out to one-half. JMO

Holeman said in a interview that the reenactments are wrong and show the public doesn't know the facts (can't find the source).

The article with helicopter footage shows a location on RL property that IS closer to one- half mile. https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...07.2145477666.1613826310-536975449.1613826310

All just my own thoughts...

 

[Deerrun]

This has probably already been discussed so forgive me I have not seen it. I thought it odd that at the 2019 press conference Carter asked everyone to give the families 2 weeks time before contacting them. Why? Many thoughts came to mind but my first thought was; Carter was saying give them time because they know who the 2nd sketch is and are having a hard time coming to grips with it.

About 7 minutes in. I am prob reading to much into it but it has been a nagging question for me.
Thanks, moo.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

My mind can’t go their either. If somebody was sitting up in a tree on a deer stand, maybe deer wouldn’t notice but people sure would considering there were no leaves on the trees yet. As it wasn’t hunting season, for a would-be murderer to place himself in such a visible situation just seems highly unlikely to me, as if asking to attract notice, even getting reported to LE. Idly sitting one of those benches noticing who passed by would seem far less attention-getting. JMO

Maybe if he was up there taking photos of wildlife no one would think it was suspicious. Or if he was operating a drone from there.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

This has probably already been discussed so forgive me I have not seen it. I thought it odd that at the 2019 press conference Carter asked everyone to give the families 2 weeks time before contacting them. Why? Many thoughts came to mind but my first thought was; Carter was saying give them time because they know who the 2nd sketch is and are having a hard time coming to grips with it.

About 7 minutes in. I am prob reading to much into it but it has been a nagging question for me.
Thanks, moo.

I agree and I was very hopeful in those next 2 weeks but still no arrest.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

A Deer blind is usually a camouflage (usually) temporary structure either out of fabric or other material on the ground. A Deer stand is elevated, either on a tree or a stand alone structure, similar to an enclosed tree house.

Thank you!

 

[Jerry_Rikshaw]

I wasn’t aware that anyone was an “approved source” outside of law-enforcement. Gray Hughes said the alleged information came from an unknown person that Gray says spoke to Anna after Anna saw the video. Three degrees of telephone game right there.

 

[Silver_produce0]

Don't be quiet about it. The popular trail with 50 people theme has totally screwed up perspective of this case. Since it's such a high profile case everyone is desperate for more info and more anecdotes. We don't have cameras all over the place to supply those details so we have to pretend people were all over the place.

RSBBM
I have come to agree with you. On Sunday I walked a semi popular trail near my home. The weather was really nice. After about 45 minutes into my walk I realized I had seen very few people and I thought about this case again. I just can’t believe up to 50 people would be at the MHB trail. I know it was warm, I know the weather was nice, but still…

 

[Jerry_Rikshaw]

Can you remind me in which interview he said this? I want to go back and refresh my memory on this point.

I hope it's okay to post this link here. It was in the recent Robert Ives interview on the Dr. Oz show. It's on the Dr. Oz YouTube channel. It's called "The Murder Case Of Abigail Williams And Liberty German." This link will supposedly start at the right spot, but if it doesn't, start at about 4:41.

 

[photographer4]

This has probably already been discussed so forgive me I have not seen it. I thought it odd that at the 2019 press conference Carter asked everyone to give the families 2 weeks time before contacting them. Why? Many thoughts came to mind but my first thought was; Carter was saying give them time because they know who the 2nd sketch is and are having a hard time coming to grips with it.

About 7 minutes in. I am prob reading to much into it but it has been a nagging question for me.
Thanks, moo.

If they had any idea who the sketch was of, would police have even released it in the first place? I wonder, if family recognized, or thought they recognized the person, would police have gone and picked someone up for questioning before releasing that to the public? He said family only found out about it that morning. I don't think the family recognizing someone was why he asked for two weeks. Probably more on compassionate grounds as the family was just shocked with the new direction of the investigation?

 

[Spartygirl]

This has probably already been discussed so forgive me I have not seen it. I thought it odd that at the 2019 press conference Carter asked everyone to give the families 2 weeks time before contacting them. Why? Many thoughts came to mind but my first thought was; Carter was saying give them time because they know who the 2nd sketch is and are having a hard time coming to grips with it.

About 7 minutes in. I am prob reading to much into it but it has been a nagging question for me.
Thanks, moo.

I think it was just because it was an emotional presser for family.
They were just finding out about the 2nd sketch and release of "GUYS" in the audio video.
Family was told about it right before the start of the presser so I think it was meant to just give them time to process this new info.
I mean, look how confused, upset and shocked most of us were after that presser.
I am sure family was feeling what we were feeling, only 1000 x's more.
JMO

 

[photographer4]

Maybe if he was up there taking photos of wildlife no one would think it was suspicious. Or if he was operating a drone from there.

I shoot in the woods all the time. I use a DSLR and some big heavy lenses. My gear bag fully loaded, just for a morning trip to the woods weighs 26lbs (yep, I just weighed it!). If someone was up in a deer stand shooting, I'd find that really odd! I have never seen that happen while shooting. I have seen baiting with apples, or birdseed etc... I've seen huge lenses for the most part, rarely point and shoot. I've never even seen someone shooting sitting in a pop up lawn chair! Usually I see them just stand still, and wait for wildlife to happen by, or walking the trails. Now I'm going to make a point of looking UP each time I go to woods to shoot.