Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[squish]

I'm not certain the home country of all the folks on this website. Too many for me to keep track of.

However, in the United States, there are numerous designations of public land, many of which permit hunting. For the most part, hunting is permitted on private property. So, any private property adjacent to the actual trail property would be legal to hunt upon.

As for hunting 'blinds' in terms of this case, there is no evidence of such that I am aware of.

Hunting is illegal and/or restricted in most urban areas. However, in rural America, it's pretty much legal, each State having it's own laws, and regulating dates, bag limits, type's of weapons used, etc.

White Tail Deer in the U.S. is a very successful species, so much so, that the herds either 1. become terribly destructive, or 2. overcome their habitat and starve to death, particularly in winter time. I've personally seen bark stripped from trees, where deer were struggling to survive with a deep snow pack, dying from starvation. Big time, not just a few trees. Think a hundred deer, or more.

A search of game management in say, Pennsylvania, would give a person a good look at the process of managing the deer herd, and all other wildlife in that state.

Many wildlife refuges, state, and even federal parks permit hunting. I have seen lots of signs at the entry to such parks, nature preserves, etc, that indicate the hiker should either avoid hiking certain areas, or certain dates, or dress in blaze orange, etc. etc.

Edit to add, just today I saw 3 dead deer along the roads I normally drive. It is not unusual to see deer road kill. A few years ago a deer ran out from some trees smack in to my driver side truck door.

Also, farm/crop damage from deer herds is huge. Many states permit farmers to kill unlimited number of deer in an attempt to control crop damage. They also get hung up in wire fencing. That's quite a sight to see. A deer will bolt straight head on into fencing. A few years ago I came across one tangled up in a wire fence. A local came by, killed it, and took it home for the freezer.

For any curious foks, I am not, and have never been a hunter.

It's worth mentioning here that the reason deer become over populated, is because hunters have caused their natural predators to drastically decline.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

LE should have checked the surveillance footage from every fast food drive-tru in town for the 12, 13, n 14th. Odds are high in a small town like that they’d have found something. Interview the servers. Get the facial expressions, clothing, mannerisms, license plates, etc. Too late now.

I have some "what-ifs" to that :

What if someone from Delphi indeed met BG at a fastfood restaurant/pub prior to the murders, from the local's point of view: completely random and unplanned, the young man even personally unknown to him until BG may have introduced himself (if he did).

What if the local hesitated to mention this encounter, because the young man was a "very trustworthy" person in his eyes and never able to be a double murderer and even totally pointless, to assume it?

What if the local became suspious only in 2019 and counted 2 and 2 together finally? (Maybe, he got calls from his "pub acquaintance", who asked about the state of affairs re the crime a bit too often or too urgently?)

What if the local (thank goodness!) caused the April PC by summoning up all his courage, after perceiving, how the "pub acquaintance" had spent his last two years from 2017 to 2019?

 

[TL4S]

Yeah,, I am not sure why that says half mile because just about every video, article, Dr Oz, HLN, interviews with LE, with family say about 1/4 mile.
this ISP article is the only one I have seen that says 1/2 mile,

I think many of those sources are assuming the location based on the same RL interview that we all are. The images of that taped-off area in the woods next to the creek were powerful.

There's also this:
https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/map-where-the-two-bodies-were-found-near-delphi-indiana
Kim Riley of the Indiana State Police said the bodies were found about a mile east of the Freedom Bridge...

That distance is consistent with the "approximately one-half mile upstream from the bridge (MHB)" ISP statement. I can't seem to attach a map with the distance shown at the moment, but anyone can do it on google maps. And it doesn't work with the location south of the cemetery.

I would like a link to LE stating the girls were found 1/4 mile (or less) from the bridge and I will let this rest.

It's just a detail, anyway. But I might change my thinking if he took them even deeper from view. JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

LE should have checked the surveillance footage from every fast food drive-tru in town for the 12, 13, n 14th. Odds are high in a small town like that they’d have found something. Interview the servers. Get the facial expressions, clothing, mannerisms, license plates, etc. Too late now.

Just curious why you'd assume they didn't do this?

If it's because LE haven't explicitly said that they canvassed businesses, then I think it's a poor assumption. They have not given the public any detailed rundown of investigative avenues or strategies they pursued. We do know, though, from the sheer number of ISP, FBI agents (over 100 according to the Indianapolis FBI lead agent in charge), and detectives and officers on loan from neighboring counties that they would have had the manpower to do what you're suggesting. I have trouble believing they would overlook it.

 

[TLC - IN]

Just curious why you'd assume they didn't do this?

If it's because LE haven't explicitly said that they canvassed businesses, then I think it's a poor assumption. They have not given the public any detailed rundown of investigative avenues or strategies they pursued. We do know, though, from the sheer number of ISP, FBI agents (over 100 according to the Indianapolis FBI lead agent in charge), and detectives and officers on loan from neighboring counties that they would have had the manpower to do what you're suggesting. I have trouble believing they would overlook it.

And pardon me for being so blunt but people are thinking about this issue with their 2021 minds and 2021 technology this happened in 2017 and not all the surveillance was around the way it is today. Just saying.

 

[Blanche]

as it is only a small town i understand of just over 2000 people why can they not ask all the males in the town to come forward to have their DNA taken? they think the suspect is local that would at least exclude all the residents or find the culprit? i understand they have got DNA from the scene.

 

[cbeagle]

Yeah,, I am not sure why that says half mile because just about every video, article, Dr Oz, HLN, interviews with LE, with family say about 1/4 mile.
this ISP article is the only one I have seen that says 1/2 mile,

It's repeated (with slightly different wording, due to the fact it's two years later) in this ISP bulletin from April 22 2019:

This investigation has been ongoing since the discovery of the girls bodies, the early afternoon of February 14, 2017, in a wooded area near the Delphi Historic Trail, about a half mile upstream from the high bridge.

New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

 

[photographer4]

LE should have checked the surveillance footage from every fast food drive-tru in town for the 12, 13, n 14th. Odds are high in a small town like that they’d have found something. Interview the servers. Get the facial expressions, clothing, mannerisms, license plates, etc. Too late now.

Maybe they DID do that. Maybe they HAVE all that info already. I was thinking they probably pulled video from any highways / traffic cams too.

 

[TLC - IN]

as it is only a small town i understand of just over 2000 people why can they not ask all the males in the town to come forward to have their DNA taken? they think the suspect is local that would at least exclude all the residents or find the culprit? i understand they have got DNA from the scene.

They CAN ASK. However, without probable cause they cannot COMPEL the giving of DNA.

 

[Yemelyan]

as it is only a small town i understand of just over 2000 people why can they not ask all the males in the town to come forward to have their DNA taken? they think the suspect is local that would at least exclude all the residents or find the culprit? i understand they have got DNA from the scene.

It is not constitutional to compel all the males in a town to give their DNA in this situation. In order to demand DNA, LE have to have a warrant for probable cause that an individual is involved in a specific crime. Here's no way to show that ALL males in Delphi are involved in these murders.

You CAN ask that males "voluntarily" give their DNA, this is called a DNA sweep or DNA dragnet. However, it gets into a very imprecise and dicey area, legally, and for this reason is very rarely used. The question is, what constitutes "voluntary" participation, because not participating could be (in practice IS) interpreted as probable cause for further investigation.

For this reason, DNA sweeps are typically not used by LE due to concerns about the admissibility of evidence and its violation of constitutional protections against compelled self-incrimination and unreasonable search and seizure. MOO

 

[Blanche]

It is not constitutional to compel all the males in a town to give their DNA in this situation. In order to demand DNA, LE have to have a warrant for probable cause that an individual is involved in a specific crime. Here's no way to show that ALL males in Delphi are involved in these murders.

You CAN ask that males "voluntarily" give their DNA, this is called a DNA sweep or DNA dragnet. However, it gets into a very imprecise and dicey area, legally, and for this reason is very rarely used. The question is, what constitutes "voluntary" participation, because not participating could be (in practice IS) interpreted as probable cause for further investigation.

For this reason, DNA sweeps are typically not used by LE due to concerns about the admissibility of evidence and its violation of constitutional protections against compelled self-incrimination and unreasonable search and seizure. MOO

I didnt say compel them I said to "ask" them , those who do not come forward they could look at. it has happened in other cases , eg To Try to Net Killer, Police Ask a Small Town's Men for DNA (Published 2005)

Killer breakthrough – the day DNA evidence first nailed a murderer

it does happen and as this is not a large town why dont they at least try that is my view

 

[Blanche]

They CAN ASK. However, without probable cause they cannot COMPEL the giving of DNA.

I know, that is why I said " ask" them.

 

[photographer4]

as it is only a small town i understand of just over 2000 people why can they not ask all the males in the town to come forward to have their DNA taken? they think the suspect is local that would at least exclude all the residents or find the culprit? i understand they have got DNA from the scene.

If people didn't volunteer to be tested, they'd have to get warrants for them and compel them to do so. This might not be easy to do without probable cause. Additionally, it assumes the perp is a resident of the area (he may not be). He may not ever have lived locally. If he did, he may have long since moved away.

 

[Yemelyan]

I didnt say compel them I said to "ask" them , those who do not come forward they could look at. it has happened in other cases , eg To Try to Net Killer, Police Ask a Small Town's Men for DNA (Published 2005)

Killer breakthrough – the day DNA evidence first nailed a murderer

it does happen and as this is not a large town why dont they at least try that is my view

Maybe go back and re-read my post. When you say "those that do not come forward they could maybe look at" - that is the exact reason it has been ruled as unconstitutional in plenty of cases. You have a right not to incriminate yourself and the fact that refusal is seen as probable cause to investigate you further is problematic to future prosecution.

The reason they are reluctant to even ask is what I outlined in my post...any evidence obtained by "voluntary" sweeps can be (and have been) thrown out as inadmissible. If you notice, I didn't say it's never done, I said it's rare. Why is it rare? Because prosecutors know now that there is plenty of precedent for it to be challenged. LE in Delphi have made it clear they are not going to take any steps that would wreck their one chance at prosecution. JMO

 

[photographer4]

I didnt say compel them I said to "ask" them , those who do not come forward they could look at. it has happened in other cases , eg To Try to Net Killer, Police Ask a Small Town's Men for DNA (Published 2005)

Killer breakthrough – the day DNA evidence first nailed a murderer

it does happen and as this is not a large town why dont they at least try that is my view

Indiana home searched in investigation of girls' deaths
"The bodies of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams of Delphi were found Tuesday about a quarter-mile from an abandoned railroad bridge that’s part of a trail system where a family member left them Monday to go hiking on a day off school. Their deaths have been ruled a double-homicide."

 

[Yemelyan]

If people didn't volunteer to be tested, they'd have to get warrants for them and compel them to do so. This might not be easy to do without probable cause. Additionally, it assumes the perp is a resident of the area (he may not be). He may not ever have lived locally. If he did, he may have long since moved away.

It's not just "not easy" to get a warrant without probable cause, it is impossible. Probable cause exists when there is a fair and reasonable probability that a search (in this case a search of an individual's DNA) will result in evidence of a crime being discovered. You're not going to be able to show this for all males in Delphi and it's not just a matter of too much work to do it.

 

[MistyWaters]

I didnt say compel them I said to "ask" them , those who do not come forward they could look at. it has happened in other cases , eg To Try to Net Killer, Police Ask a Small Town's Men for DNA (Published 2005)

Killer breakthrough – the day DNA evidence first nailed a murderer

it does happen and as this is not a large town why dont they at least try that is my view

It’s also somewhat of a fallacy that LE believes the killer currently lives within the town limits of Delphi. Neither have they ever defined “area” but one doesn’t neccesarily have to reside within a town in order to be familiar with its Historical Trail System. So to consider that obtaining DNA from all males living in Delphi (if it were possible) would be a sure fire way to solve the case resembles more of a fishing expedition to me. IMO


Delphi murders: After 3 years, police say case isn't cold

“One area where State Police have been unusually forthcoming is in their belief that the suspect or suspects in the Delphi slayings is familiar with the town and the trail area.

"That is one of the theories that we have, that either the person is from the area, or visits frequently, that he's been to the area more than once," Riley said.

“It's probably one of the stronger theories that we have at this time, based on the terrain and the location. We have a strong suspicion that the person is either from the area, has visited there before or has lived in the Delphi area for a number of years.....”

 

[MistyWaters]

If people didn't volunteer to be tested, they'd have to get warrants for them and compel them to do so. This might not be easy to do without probable cause. Additionally, it assumes the perp is a resident of the area (he may not be). He may not ever have lived locally. If he did, he may have long since moved away.

Plus LE recently stated they’re not certain if they have the killers DNA.

Over time 100s of pages of these threads have focused on ways to identify the killer through his DNA, even though LE have never ever stated known DNA from the perpetrator was collected from either the bodies or the crime scene.

However what LE have consistently stated is they are looking for a tip from somebody to help them identify the killer of Abby and Libby.

 

[Charlot123]

I hear what you're saying, I do, but at the same time, for me, I'm interested to know if he hid in a deer blind, and which way he entered and exited the scene. Knowing even small pieces, if LE confirmed or debunked them... might help *someone* to identify this guy! EG someone might know X owns a deerblind and its been missing presumed stolen since around 2017.... that might just be the small thing police need tipped in.

We don't know what they need, because they won't tell us. It seems, at times, counterproductive to me that they provide so little info / detail and then expect people to know something helpful. It seems they make a more work for themselves with people making guesses, and tipping things in that probably have nothing to do with the case at all.

I wonder how come, given how many people knew the girls, how people tend to gossip in general, this tip is something LÊ will immediately recognize as valid. I assume it is a detail coming from one of the people who (they know) might be marginally aware of the situation. Alternatively, it is some very small piece that no one can even guess about, something that was found after the girls’ death, and kept in a very tight circle of LEOs. In other words, the person tipping them will know a detail that, with all gossips, legends, myths and knowledge, will be impossible to guess.

To me, this detail somehow proves to LE that the is a local, but I am guessing, too ))

 

[MistyWaters]

I wonder how come, given how many people knew the girls, how people tend to gossip in general, this tip is something LÊ will immediately recognize as valid. I assume it is a detail coming from one of the people who (they know) might be marginally aware of the situation. Alternatively, it is some very small piece that no one can even guess about, something that was found after the girls’ death, and kept in a very tight circle of LEOs. In other words, the person tipping them will know a detail that, with all gossips, legends, myths and knowledge, will be impossible to guess.

To me, this detail somehow proves to LE that the is a local, but I am guessing, too ))

IIRC, although I don’t have the exact quote at hand, LE justified their reason for not releasing additional information to help identify that “one tip”.

What that means to me, if the perpetrator told someone, it’s the factual details of the actual crime LE would be able to recognize immediately. (ie cause of death, precise location, anything descriptive about the crime scene - everything we often wish LE would reveal!). I don’t think it’s related to anything personally known about the girls in general as that type of knowledge doesn’t prove murder.

JMO