Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[MistyWaters]

This might help with orientation? The picture at the top of this article is the first one I've seen facing away from the inland taped off crime scene looking down towards the creek.

Police question multiple people in Delphi girls' murders - WISH-TV | Indianapolis News | Indiana Weather | Indiana Traffic

It appears as if there’s more than one area taped off because the right side in this photo is much different than other photos.

 

[Yemelyan]

Isnt there a fairly recent comment by the Sheriff that the killer left through the woods?

In the newly released (a few weeks ago) episode 10 of the podcast Down the Hill, TL is interviewed and when the reporter asks "Do you know for certain which way this killer left?" He answers: "I guess the way I'll respond to this is, there is speculation but nothing factual developed at this point."

This is at minute 10:14 of the interview.

 

[MistyWaters]

The first attachment is the photo with RL's dog and the cameraman further down. It shows the north side of the crime scene marked off from the northwest corner to almost the northeast side (left). You can make out at the left of the image the crime scene tape going down the east side. The second attachment is a photo taken by the media taken nearer the north side tape that completely shows the northeast corner of the crime scene. Between the two images the length across is likely 150-200 feet.

Finally, this video of mostly raw footage by WXIN (Fox 59) shows various parts of the crime scene area. Pertinent to see the other (east side) the video begins with the reporter and RL at the east side down near the creek but doesn't show much of anything however the next sequence beginning around 10 seconds has the camera at the west side edge (closer to the north end rather than the south) looking across to the east side and then the camera pans left (toward the north) where it eventually shows almost all of the north side.

WXIN- A look around the woods near the Delphi Historic Trail.mp4

My curiosity stems from recent information that doesn’t quite fit the bodies being found on relatively flat ground south of the cemetery.

Didn’t we recently learn there was some type of gully feature where the bodies were found? And that Kelsi said she was walking along the private driveway when the searcher called out about finding the shoe?

My comments aren’t directed at you but I’m wondering if I’m dreaming because we seem to have settled back to the comfort of status quo to avoid revisiting existing theories.

 

[stattlich1]

To stand on the south bank of Deer Creek, look up, and see the bodies, (reported to be only 50 feet from the far creek bank) one can only be so far upstream without being in the water. This alone leads me to believe it is simply that this searcher was in the vicinity of the sandbar near perpendicular to the bridge seen on google maps.

To be as far upstream as possible in the vicinity of that sandbar and look across the creek and see the bodies still puts them in that region southeast of the southeast corner of the cemetery and/or old quarry.

MOO

 

[Boxer]

My curiosity stems from recent information that doesn’t quite fit the bodies being found on relatively flat ground south of the cemetery.

Didn’t we recently learn there was some type of gully feature where the bodies were found? And that Kelsi said she was walking along the private driveway when the searcher called out about finding the shoe?

My comments aren’t directed at you but I’m wondering if I’m dreaming because we seem to have settled back to the comfort of status quo to avoid revisiting existing theories.

MOO the ground between the cemetery and creek is steep then levels off to a flatter area.

 

[stattlich1]

I sometimes wonder if he came from the South side entering the area using the private drive, either on foot or if he had a vehicle parked there

I've considered an entry from this direction. The abandoned railroad bed leads around to 200, right between Pine Grove Missionary Baptist Church, and PTI Machining. So I've thought maybe he could have parked at either of those places, and under cover of the treeline, via that abandoned railroad line, made his way to the bridge area, and back out again.

I've considered he may have parked upstream at near where google maps shows the Deer Creek Valley Rural Historic District, as there is a large open area where one could park and be relatively unseen.

I've also considered he may have parked at the pull off at the Old Royster Ford and Carroll County Bridge No. 121.

He could have been picked up at any of the aforementioned areas.

I've also considered that he may have been parked under the bridge, on the private drive, with the intent to get the girls in the vehicle some how, but they ran when they saw what his intent was. I kind of doubt this, as the car would likely have been seen by someone that day.

With all that being said, parking at the rear of that cemetery puts him right smack dab in the area of the CS, bridge, and trails. Easy in, easy out.

MOO

 

[TL4S]

My curiosity stems from recent information that doesn’t quite fit the bodies being found on relatively flat ground south of the cemetery.

Didn’t we recently learn there was some type of gully feature where the bodies were found? And that Kelsi said she was walking along the private driveway when the searcher called out about finding the shoe?

My comments aren’t directed at you but I’m wondering if I’m dreaming because we seem to have settled back to the comfort of status quo to avoid revisiting existing theories.

KG starts taking about the search and discovery around the 7-7:30 minute mark. She says she had been in the woods underneath the bridge and down by the water, then was heading back up toward the private drive when someone in that same wooded area but over by the house (KW's I assume) yelled out asking about the shoe. Shortly after, the searcher looked across the creek and found them. She doesn't say in this one, though, exactly where that searcher is or if she could see them.

This is my hangup with considering the bodies being much farther east (closer to the actual 1/2 mile) because I'm not sure how far someone could see because of the bend in the creek. But the inlet area that @FrostedGlass posted yesterday, and you've mentioned, would likely be visible, I think.
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In the DTH Podcast, KR describes the crime scene using the word "gully."

The ravines are not deep here but we do have ravines and small hills, the creek ran through there real close to the crime scene, it was down in the lower gully, I guess you could call it, where the bodies were found and there were two hills on each side plus one on the other side of the creek.

 

[Yemelyan]

My curiosity stems from recent information that doesn’t quite fit the bodies being found on relatively flat ground south of the cemetery.

Didn’t we recently learn there was some type of gully feature where the bodies were found? And that Kelsi said she was walking along the private driveway when the searcher called out about finding the shoe?

My comments aren’t directed at you but I’m wondering if I’m dreaming because we seem to have settled back to the comfort of status quo to avoid revisiting existing theories.

I happened to re-listen to episode 9 of DTH (Three Februaries). In it, the reporter and TL visit the cemetery and this is what they say. This is from around minute 38:

Reporter: It’s a ten minute drive from TL’s office to a small roadside cemetery along 300N. It’s about as close as you can get to the crime scene without stepping onto private property.
So we are at the cemetery. Explain for me where the crime scene was.

TL: Yeah. In that I’m not the best judge of distance, I will visually describe. There’s a ridge - there’s actually two ridges here, one very close to us and the second one on over a few more hundred feet. Beyond that second ridge, much closer to Deer Creek, is the area where the girls were located.

 

[MistyWaters]

I happened to re-listen to episode 9 of DTH (Three Februaries). In it, the reporter and TL visit the cemetery and this is what they say. This is from around minute 38:

Reporter: It’s a ten minute drive from TL’s office to a small roadside cemetery along 300N. It’s about as close as you can get to the crime scene without stepping onto private property.
So we are at the cemetery. Explain for me where the crime scene was.

TL: Yeah. In that I’m not the best judge of distance, I will visually describe. There’s a ridge - there’s actually two ridges here, one very close to us and the second one on over a few more hundred feet. Beyond that second ridge, much closer to Deer Creek, is the area where the girls were located.

That would also bring the distance closer to the 1/2 mile upsteam from the bridge.

When considering a possible crime scene to me it seems to me we have no reason, other than opinion, to assume the killer began and ended at the cemetery. So from that location we assume the bodies were located near the cemetery due to convenience of access.

Of note, LE have not asked the public to inform them of vehicles parked at the cemetery that day nor for any sightings at the cemetery at all. The trail and the cemetery aren’t mutually conclusive of one another as they are separate destinations. So my question would be - how can we be so certain the cemetery was involved?

 

[TL4S]

That would also bring the distance closer to the 1/2 mile upsteam from the bridge.

No, I think this description would be putting the crime scene in the flat area south of the cemetery, which is only maybe 1000 ft. upstream from the bridge.

Unless TL is being vague and the location is the far easterly corner of that flat area on the other side of the creek bend nearer the 1/2 mile mark, I think it sounds like he's referencing the assumed taped-off area, which is less than a 1/4 upstream from the bridge. I guess I have to concede that ISP's measurements are sorrowfully off.

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe the drinking violation was a different day, actually - February 27th.

See this article: https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/del...-to-charges-unrelated-to-delphi-teens-murders

Yes the drinking at the pizza joint was two weeks later. I recall a video with a female friend who described his falling off the wagon due to emotional stress as a result of the bodies being found on his property. No doubt he was hounded by reporters and as a result may’ve got caught up in all the attention. Or who knows, he might’ve never stopped drinking and driving and until then everyone looked the other way.

While he admitted driving to the dump which might’ve had CCTV to prove it, I don’t recall anything more about the tropical fish trip to Lafayette. Regardless it may be extremely fortunate for him that he happened to have a verifiable alibi and wasn’t home at the time. JMO

Cops searching property where Ind. teens' bodies were found | whas11.com
“He told Inside Edition that he has an alibi, saying he was buying tropical fish at the time of the murders.

I was not home during the time all this was happening, I was in Lafayette and I didn't get home until 6:30 in the evening and the neighbors stopped and asked permission to look back here for the girls,” he said....”

 

[Boxer]

I've considered an entry from this direction. The abandoned railroad bed leads around to 200, right between Pine Grove Missionary Baptist Church, and PTI Machining. So I've thought maybe he could have parked at either of those places, and under cover of the treeline, via that abandoned railroad line, made his way to the bridge area, and back out again.

I've considered he may have parked upstream at near where google maps shows the Deer Creek Valley Rural Historic District, as there is a large open area where one could park and be relatively unseen.

I've also considered he may have parked at the pull off at the Old Royster Ford and Carroll County Bridge No. 121.

He could have been picked up at any of the aforementioned areas.

I've also considered that he may have been parked under the bridge, on the private drive, with the intent to get the girls in the vehicle some how, but they ran when they saw what his intent was. I kind of doubt this, as the car would likely have been seen by someone that day.

With all that being said, parking at the rear of that cemetery puts him right smack dab in the area of the CS, bridge, and trails. Easy in, easy out.

MOO

Agree.
I add this. I believe he came by motorcycle and parked in the tree line at the rear of the cemetery. Whether just curious or having been to the area before, he poked around in the woods saw the girls alone and the trapping potential of the bridge, took the opportunity and advantage of the situation.
I believe he came in from the east and left to the east leaving no camera footage at any meaningful proximity.
My reasons for thinking this are his shoes. To me they are motorcycle riding style shoes. A motorcycle is easier to hide and taking a ride is a reason for a man to be out in a random place in the country.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

That would also bring the distance closer to the 1/2 mile upsteam from the bridge.

When considering a possible crime scene to me it seems to me we have no reason, other than opinion, to assume the killer began and ended at the cemetery. So from that location we assume the bodies were located near the cemetery due to convenience of access.

Of note, LE have not asked the public to inform them of vehicles parked at the cemetery that day nor for any sightings at the cemetery at all. The trail and the cemetery aren’t mutually conclusive of one another as they are separate destinations. So my question would be - how can we be so certain the cemetery was involved?

I don’t think anybody knows for sure if the killer parked at the cemetery. I just think it’s location makes it one of the top choices for that, at least for me.
1) It’s possible to park in the very back of the cemetery and not be seen from the road.
2) The crime scene is fairly easily accessible straight from the cemetery (no matter where we might all be thinking the actual crime scene is)
3) The trails can be almost completely avoided headed to the bridge or from the crime scene.
4) Quickest way out in my opinion.
I don’t think LE has asked about any cars at the cemetery because unfortunately that entire area was overtaken by people parking there during the search for the girls and again by LE parking there after they were found. Any evidence or tire tracks were obliterated.
Certainly LE asking about the car at CPS makes me wonder, but I can’t really fathom why the killer would be walking past people on the trails after the murders to get to a car way over there. Even if his car was parked there, why wouldn’t he sneak around somehow to get back at it? That’s why the cemetery is my number one choice for the killer’s parking spot. But I think anything really is possible. Maybe he walked out, maybe he parked a mile away down one of the rural roads nearby. Maybe he called someone to pick him up. Maybe he lived nearby. I just hope LE knows more than we do.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Charlot123]

I know that the man whose property Abby and Libby were found on was said to have been cleared but it boggles the mind that this man was gone to a dump when they were looking for the girls, when he was nearly off probation and not allowed to drive. Property owner also went drinking another probation violation on that very same day. Something or someone made him break his probation on that very day.

If he had an issue with drinking, he could have, or might have, broken probation many times. I am more shocked by the judge throwing the book at him and lecturing him so sternly

 

[TL4S]

I don’t think anybody knows for sure if the killer parked at the cemetery. I just think it’s location makes it one of the top choices for that, at least for me.
1) It’s possible to park in the very back of the cemetery and not be seen from the road.
2) The crime scene is fairly easily accessible straight from the cemetery (no matter where we might all be thinking the actual crime scene is)
3) The trails can be almost completely avoided headed to the bridge or from the crime scene.
4) Quickest way out in my opinion.
I don’t think LE has asked about any cars at the cemetery because unfortunately that entire area was overtaken by people parking there during the search for the girls and again by LE parking there after they were found. Any evidence or tire tracks were obliterated.
Certainly LE asking about the car at CPS makes me wonder, but I can’t really fathom why the killer would be walking past people on the trails after the murders to get to a car way over there. Even if his car was parked there, why wouldn’t he sneak around somehow to get back at it? That’s why the cemetery is my number one choice for the killer’s parking spot. But I think anything really is possible. Maybe he walked out, maybe he parked a mile away down one of the rural roads nearby. Maybe he called someone to pick him up. Maybe he lived nearby. I just hope LE knows more than we do.
Just my thoughts.

I think the cemetery is logical, for all your stated reasons, IF the killer planned the crime specifics. Or, possibly, if he was driving east when he saw them dropped off and the cemetery was the next convenient place to park. So I guess the cemetery parking, imo, has more to do with each of our own particular theories as to how much he planned ahead. Jmo.

 

[Jethro4WS]

My curiosity stems from recent information that doesn’t quite fit the bodies being found on relatively flat ground south of the cemetery.

Didn’t we recently learn there was some type of gully feature where the bodies were found? And that Kelsi said she was walking along the private driveway when the searcher called out about finding the shoe?

My comments aren’t directed at you but I’m wondering if I’m dreaming because we seem to have settled back to the comfort of status quo to avoid revisiting existing theories.

Reporter Rich Van Wyk of WTHR posted this video to his twitter feed (it is no longer available on his feed) on Sunday February 19th, 2017 with a post saying that family had placed flowers where the girls were found. The video is short and zooms in to show the flowers.

Meet Google Drive – One place for all your files

 

[Ravenmoon]

I know that the man whose property Abby and Libby were found on was said to have been cleared but it boggles the mind that this man was gone to a dump when they were looking for the girls, when he was nearly off probation and not allowed to drive. Property owner also went drinking another probation violation on that very same day. Something or someone made him break his probation on that very day.

In my mind, it is coincidence that RL did the things that he did that day.
There is no way of knowing how often that type of behavior happened on his part.
It could be that on occasion, he did this break his probation rules. There was just no reason for anyone to verify his whereabouts.
Honestly- the only thing that he is likely to be guilty of is having a drinking problem and not being much of a socialite.
It can't be easy knowing that the place that you live in , the place that your kids grew up, is now known for being a killing ground of 2 innocent kids.

JMO MOO AMOO

EBM to correct grammar

 

[TL4S]

This is from May 2019 in regards to the car at the CPS lot. I'm not sure if it's still pertinent, but I wonder what information LE had that tied that car, parked there, with the killer getting around quickly. I've seen theories it belonged to him, or someone picking him up, or a witness LE was looking for. Has it been mentioned in any interviews or podcasts lately?

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

 

[Yemelyan]

This is from May 2019 in regards to the car at the CPS lot. I'm not sure if it's still pertinent, but I wonder what information LE had that tied that car, parked there, with the killer getting around quickly. I've seen theories it belonged to him, or someone picking him up, or a witness LE was looking for. Has it been mentioned in any interviews or podcasts lately?

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

Maybe the vehicle that LE are interested in is seen on surveillance footage of some sort in multiple locations on the day the girls were killed? Perhaps that's why it's such a broad amount of time at the CPS building - noon to 5 - because it came and went at different times OR they believe it went other places, like the cemetery, during the period of time it wasn't parked there?

 

[Boxer]

Maybe the vehicle that LE are interested in is seen on surveillance footage of some sort in multiple locations on the day the girls were killed? Perhaps that's why it's such a broad amount of time at the CPS building - noon to 5 - because it came and went at different times OR they believe it went other places, like the cemetery, during the period of time it wasn't parked there?

If they have a car they believe is local they must have developed a list of all possible cars and the nexus of all people associated with those cars. Hopeful one line of their investigation will pan out.