Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

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Since the girls didn't have ride for sure until KG said yes to taking them to the trail, I would assume if there was meeting anyone a call text or other communication that they were going there would have happened at that time.
Maybe, they were forbidden (or had no chance) to text or call the perp on Monday? I think, they knew the day and perhaps a period of time (hours), within which they could meet him, in fact (perhaps) since the reset of Libby's phone? It wouldn't have taken much to do it this way, if the perp/BG meant to.
Maybe, he "played" with his wellknown real name within some conversation, uncovered conversation done however; the girls saw a creep (in disguise) and thought, it couldn't be the man, they had the interesting, seductive conversation with - BUT it was EXACTLY this person with the wellknown name.
IF it happened like that, Abby/Libby had no chance to betray him: If the girls had said something about him without meeting him, he would have simply denied all of the contact as "dreams" of little unbelievable teenage girls. If they would meet him at the MHB area, their fate was sealed in his mind, so no fear on his side.
 
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"Guys" .... I will kill you .... "down the hill".
Can BG have said this in his evil mental state?

A member posted a statement from LE (KR??), who said, LE relived the girls' feeling of shock and terrible fear early in the clash of BG and his victims. My thoughts were, that it could have happened only between "guys" and "down the hill", when Abby/Libby got these fears for their existence. (I wasn't able to reply in time to this post.)
Do I remember well, when thinking back, that LE said 4 years ago, the BG's voice sounded "exasperated"? Because I didn't have the same impression listening to the video, the term "exasperated" got stuck with me.
 
"Guys" .... I will kill you .... "down the hill".
Can BG have said this in his evil mental state?

A member posted a statement from LE (KR??), who said, LE relived the girls' feeling of shock and terrible fear early in the clash of BG and his victims. My thoughts were, that it could have happened only between "guys" and "down the hill", when Abby/Libby got these fears for their existence. (I wasn't able to reply in time to this post.)
Do I remember well, when thinking back, that LE said 4 years ago, the BG's voice sounded "exasperated"? Because I didn't have the same impression listening to the video, the term "exasperated" got stuck with me.

"Hopefully somebody recognizes that voice," said (Sgt) Slocum. "It sounds like he's a little exasperated, like he told them before to do it."
"At the very least the evidence indicates the person in the photograph has participated, but we don't know if there are more people," said Sgt. Slocum.
Crime Watch Daily visits Delphi to join manhunt for Indiana girls' murderer

Initially, when LEO released the additional voice saying "Guys", I assumed BG was speaking to his cohorts because nearly everything LEO says in a press conference is meant as communication with the killer or killers. They were letting BG know something significant about the case.

By example, BG was possibly telling his men to round them up because, "Guys, they've gone "Down the Hill."
 
There have been roughly 15 abductions of juveniles by a stranger or strangers in the U.S. since 1974, so the rarity should give people pause.

Good post AD.
That isn't true. I can think of 8 just in the metro Detroit area off the top of my head during that time period plus several others suspected of being stranger abductions. Maybe you meant 15 per year?

ETA: I saw the post where you corrected yourself to say "pairs of juveniles."

Even though this was technically an abduction, the girls weren't taken very far, so it may have more in common with other crimes committed where the victims were murdered where they were encountered.
 
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RL owned the property all the way to the midpoint of the creek at the time of the murders. Sometime later, possibly as early as 2018, parts of his land near the creek from two parcels were sold/given or otherwise transferred out of his name. I took beacon screenshots on two different occasions on 3/29/2017 and 4/6/2017 that are attached.

Those screenshots were taken by searching Beacon by name and when the parcel results came back then hitting the Map link. That brings up a map with all of RL parcels highlighted in yellow. If you click on one of them the parcel is highlighted in red. Those screenshots were posted as parts of posts to very early threads but when Websleuths changed the forum software all of the posted images were lost. There are any number of useful photos, screenshots, diagrams, etc. that may be lost forever unless those people kept them and they are still around to offer them up again.

What we see now on Beacon is that RL doesn't own any land where the girls were found and any information about that transfer has been made unavailable. That is one of the consequences of time moving on while we need information and visuals that were valid at a specific point in time.
Thank you! This is exactly what I've been looking at on Beacon and wondering, because I had sworn I saw him owning all of it very early on. I've figured it might be with good reason that piece currently has no information available.
 
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That isn't true. I can think of 8 just in the metro Detroit area off the top of my head during that time period plus several others suspected of being stranger abductions. Maybe you meant 15 per year?

ETA: I saw the post where you corrected yourself to say "pairs of juveniles."

Even though this was technically an abduction, the girls weren't taken very far, so it may have more in common with other crimes committed where the victims were murdered where they were encountered.
Using the figures included in this loosely, Hundreds of thousands (200,000), only half reported (100,000)....0.1% are stranger abductions each year (100)...95 % are abducted by knows.

Kidnapped children make headlines, but abduction is rare in U.S.
 
"Hopefully somebody recognizes that voice," said (Sgt) Slocum. "It sounds like he's a little exasperated, like he told them before to do it."
"At the very least the evidence indicates the person in the photograph has participated, but we don't know if there are more people," said Sgt. Slocum.
Crime Watch Daily visits Delphi to join manhunt for Indiana girls' murderer

Initially, when LEO released the additional voice saying "Guys", I assumed BG was speaking to his cohorts because nearly everything LEO says in a press conference is meant as communication with the killer or killers. They were letting BG know something significant about the case.

By example, BG was possibly telling his men to round them up because, "Guys, they've gone "Down the Hill."
bbm
You maybe right, of course. Something like that.
 
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That isn't true. I can think of 8 just in the metro Detroit area off the top of my head during that time period plus several others suspected of being stranger abductions. Maybe you meant 15 per year?

ETA: I saw the post where you corrected yourself to say "pairs of juveniles."

Even though this was technically an abduction, the girls weren't taken very far, so it may have more in common with other crimes committed where the victims were murdered where they were encountered.

The distance between where the girls first encountered their murderer on the bridge and where their bodies were found is actually pretty consistent with a typical child abduction/murder scenario. When the victim is a minor, they usually aren't taken very far. The US Department of Justice prepares a document called Investigative Case Management for Child Homicides. In that document, the following information is given: both the murder site and the body recovery site is within 1/4 of a mile of the point of contact between victim and offender in over 66% of cases that were studied. Interestingly, as the age of the victim decreases, the distance between initial contact and murder/body recovery site goes way down. For older teenagers, the distance goes up. The reason for this perhaps has to do with the need to find an area for body concealment but that's MOO.

So based on this Department of Justice data, we could say that Abby and Libby fit close to the pattern usually seen by child abduction/murder researchers and that cases like Evansdale, where the victims were transported miles from the abduction site, are actually the outliers.

This is a tangent away from the original comment by @Ozoner but in checking this case management document (in order to provide the correct statistic about distances above) I also noticed that in this very large study of child abduction/murders (over 800 cases), in which it was found that the vast majority were known by investigators to be sexually motivated, that semen was found at the scene only 18% of the time. Hair was the most common type of evidence that investigators collected, at 27% of the time. Fingerprint evidence was even less common than semen.
 
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"Guys" .... I will kill you .... "down the hill".
Can BG have said this in his evil mental state?

A member posted a statement from LE (KR??), who said, LE relived the girls' feeling of shock and terrible fear early in the clash of BG and his victims. My thoughts were, that it could have happened only between "guys" and "down the hill", when Abby/Libby got these fears for their existence. (I wasn't able to reply in time to this post.)
Do I remember well, when thinking back, that LE said 4 years ago, the BG's voice sounded "exasperated"? Because I didn't have the same impression listening to the video, the term "exasperated" got stuck with me.

Abby's mom AW said in a recorded interview that was posted on these threads (The Herbert interview) that she has heard the section of audio that contains "guys...down the hill" and there are only a few seconds between "guys" and "down the hill." Furthermore, she says that the only utterance in that couple of seconds gap between "guys" and "down the hill" is the girls making what she called "a teenage thing like what? huh?"
 
And as we trudge along, trying to figure out how this whole thing played out, I'm reminded of this said of the reenactments:

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”
 
And as we trudge along, trying to figure out how this whole thing played out, I'm reminded of this said of the reenactments:

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

Well....then it follows that LE could cut down on on those false tips by releasing more information. I’ve never quite understood releasing no information to the public, but begging for tips from the same public, and then complaining about the quality of the tips you’re getting from the uninformed public.
 
Well....then it follows that LE could cut down on on those false tips by releasing more information. I’ve never quite understood releasing no information to the public, but begging for tips from the same public, and then complaining about the quality of the tips you’re getting from the uninformed public.

LE has repeatedly asked people not to tip in people who look like the sketches, they still do. LE has said the girls were murdered where they were found, people still claim they had to be killed somewhere else and moved. LE said there's no evidence the girls were catfished, people say they were probably catfished. LE says the new sketch most accurately represents the face of the man on the bridge, people say that's not possible. This really goes on and on.

The point is, nothing LE says is going to stop people from sending in false tips. Nothing LE says is going to stop people from making ridiculous youtube videos that some people will take as truth and send tips in based on what they saw or heard. And nothing is going to stop people from wanting to contradict every thing that LE says. They're too wrapped up in their own warped view of true crime, that they see corruption and conspiracies in everything. One person completely twists something that they read from a Delphi residents facebook account, posts it on their facebook group for thousands to see and now we have potentially thousands of people believing what they see. So now a good portion of these people are sending in tips. Again, this isn't something LE can prevent. I see it all the time, these people thrive on having a POI. Thrive on shoving square pegs in round holes as hard as they can until it becomes so mangled, it actually slips through.

I think LE is at the point where anything they release is going to be twisted and misconstrued. They're at a point where they're essentially using the lack of information to weed out false tips. All it takes is one person mentioning something that wasn't released to the public to send a red flag. I don't think LE is begging for tips from the public. I think just like any other unsolved case, they're asking for tips from people who have information related to the murder or information about the man on the bridge. They're not asking for people to investigate or be detectives. I don't think they have enough information TO release to the public without 'showing their hand' and losing the ability to authenticate accurate or potentially helpful tips.
 
I think the following are the only facts about this case that we know. Abby and Libby went to the high bridge trail system. Abby and Libby were murdered. BG murdered the girls. The girls were found murdered. Correct me if I have left out a fact. No theory has been proven or not proved. Therefore, one theory is just as good as another. All posters are welcome to their ideas as far as I am concerned. Sometimes, I will read a post that I think is speaking down to another poster. None of us, unless a poster is BG or LE working this case, knows what happened.

To the bolded sentence (BBM), do we know this as a fact? I believe that LE has stated the new sketch is the man they believe are responsible for the murder of Abby and Libby. When LE States this Can we then take that for a fact, as LE is stating they “believe”, not that they know? I guess for LE to state this there are some evidence pointing in that direction, but I still wonder if it is a fact?
 
To the bolded sentence (BBM), do we know this as a fact? I believe that LE has stated the new sketch is the man they believe are responsible for the murder of Abby and Libby. When LE States this Can we then take that for a fact, as LE is stating they “believe”, not that they know? I guess for LE to state this there are some evidence pointing in that direction, but I still wonder if it is a fact?


LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI

ABIGAIL WILLIAMS — FBI
UNKNOWN SUSPECT — FBI


BBM:

“Investigators have distributed a photo (shown above) of a person observed on the Delphi Historic Trail. The photo appears to depict a White male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie. During the course of the investigation, evidence has led investigators to believe the aforementioned person is suspected of being involved in the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.”
 
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

This case is four years old. Many who now have an interest in learning about these horrific murders and the distress those acts have caused the families, their entire community, and the LE officials who serve it have not been following the case those entire four years and they are unaware of the current state (proven, unproven, disregarded, maintained as a possibility) of every twist and turn in information put out by LE, the press, and various family members.

Statements by individual LE officials have sometimes contradicted statements of others, and sometime differ from what that same individual officer may have said when asked a question at an earlier point in the investigation (when less was known). Family members who've handled themselves admirably in every way through the course of this tragedy have nevertheless sometimes spoken inexactly and those inexactly spoken words have sometimes not been pursued by interviewers to more precision, yet others have used them in fleshing out their own theories as though they were precise.

Over two years into the case, LE made a very substantial change by introducing a new sketch and revealing that they now believed this portrayal represented the perpetrator (in contradiction to what they had been saying for nearly all of the previous two years, on billboards, flyers, and social media posts - that another sketch portrayed the perpetrator). By revealing no information about what had changed except comments which seemed directed at the perpetrator (or a profile of the perpetrator) and seemed to imply that LE had been led astray ("new direction in investigative strategy" which "you did not expect"), we are left without knowing whether this was because of choices made by LE early in the investigation that were now believed to have been wrong, false or planted evidence, a witness or multiple who misdirected intentionally or not, or because there were multiple perpetrators and the more recently released sketch was the real baddie while the earlier released sketch was a secondary actor. We aren't owed any of that information - and no one wants to give this perpetrator's defense attorney any ammunition to serve him once he is eventually brought into court-, but in the absence of a coherent narrative that fits the known facts, people attempt to fill in the blanks until it makes some sense to them.

For motivations that may have been as simple as comforting a community in distress or as complex as attempting to motivate the perpetrator in some way, one LE officer has inserted a very specific cultural reference that seems personal and relevant to him (and may also have been relevant to many in the audience) but that many have mistaken as a clue related to the crime. That a murder victim in a nearby county had recently been found in a hunting shack and her murderer and his cohorts arrested didn't seem entirely coincidental, until that LE official publicly revealed that there was no shack involved in the Delphi case. At one time LE asked about information relating to a vehicle that was supposedly at the old CPS building in a given time frame, but they did not identify anything about the make or model or general type of vehicle, or its color or age or condition. And then, they stopped talking about it.

Of course, we the public are not entitled to know what LE knows through the course of their investigation. But, in the absence of clarity about quite a few aspects of the very limited information that has been released, people attempt to gain clarity by making suppositions and by latching onto what someone in authority in this case has at one time said or theorized.

I think there is a lot of room for forgiveness of mistakes and for consideration of the various theories people come up with as they attempt to make sense of this and to offer their ideas, suggestions, and theories based on their own knowledge, judgment, and experience. I am personally grateful to those here (Yemelyan, I'm talking to you in particular) who approach others (long term and knowledgeable or new and showing it) with a generous spirit and who helpfully provide information that broadens awareness of what has been more recently said and by whom but who leave it to the posters they are addressing to decide what to do with that.
 
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LE has repeatedly asked people not to tip in people who look like the sketches, they still do. LE has said the girls were murdered where they were found, people still claim they had to be killed somewhere else and moved. LE said there's no evidence the girls were catfished, people say they were probably catfished. LE says the new sketch most accurately represents the face of the man on the bridge, people say that's not possible. This really goes on and on.

The point is, nothing LE says is going to stop people from sending in false tips. Nothing LE says is going to stop people from making ridiculous youtube videos that some people will take as truth and send tips in based on what they saw or heard. And nothing is going to stop people from wanting to contradict every thing that LE says. They're too wrapped up in their own warped view of true crime, that they see corruption and conspiracies in everything. One person completely twists something that they read from a Delphi residents facebook account, posts it on their facebook group for thousands to see and now we have potentially thousands of people believing what they see. So now a good portion of these people are sending in tips. Again, this isn't something LE can prevent. I see it all the time, these people thrive on having a POI. Thrive on shoving square pegs in round holes as hard as they can until it becomes so mangled, it actually slips through.

I think LE is at the point where anything they release is going to be twisted and misconstrued. They're at a point where they're essentially using the lack of information to weed out false tips. All it takes is one person mentioning something that wasn't released to the public to send a red flag. I don't think LE is begging for tips from the public. I think just like any other unsolved case, they're asking for tips from people who have information related to the murder or information about the man on the bridge. They're not asking for people to investigate or be detectives. I don't think they have enough information TO release to the public without 'showing their hand' and losing the ability to authenticate accurate or potentially helpful tips.
Not to mention the innocent lives that have been upended because of these SM-based false accusations.
 
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We do? Abby’s obituary said that she passed away on the 14th. Was that a typo or done on purpose?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.legacy.com/obituaries/jconline/obituary.aspx?n=abigail-j-williams-abby&pid=184160552&fhid=15313

I don't know if that was a typo or done intentionally for some reason that perhaps only the family knows, but something really stood out to me - there is a video of KG talking with someone on YouTube - it might have been a GH video, not sure as I've only seen it one time and didn't bookmark it. But she was asked something about regrets and she said she regretted or wished they hadn't called off the official search that night. Something about how she said that made me think that perhaps Abby really did stay alive longer than Libby, and perhaps she did pass on the night of the 14th for some reason. KG also indicated that Abby was her hero because she stayed with Libby. That really made me wonder.... could Abby have bailed to safety? Did she live longer than Libby for some reason? If they'd been found that night, could Abby have been saved? So many what ifs :(
 
Findagrave doesn't make it clearer.

The stone says, date of death, February 13th. The explanation on Findagrave says, the obit mentions February 14th, meaning that the time of death was sometime after midnite on Feb 14th, with some time of death details confirming this.

Whatever you can make of this. (((


Abigail Joyce “Abby” Williams (2003-2017) - Find...

Ok. I went and had a look at that find a grave and the write up is inaccurate! "Abby took a picture and recorded the voice of the suspect. She is considered a hero."
 
And as we trudge along, trying to figure out how this whole thing played out, I'm reminded of this said of the reenactments:

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

I think that in and of itself tells us we are very clueless! I've never believed the re-enactments from YouTube in this case for this reason. We've been told, directly by LE they're inaccurate. We're not told how, only that none of them are accurate. Sounds like LE know far more than we know!
 
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