Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[Charlot123]

Commentary on Find A Grave can be edited by anyone and is not an official source of information, especially on time of death details. The autopsy in this case is sealed so time of death is not public information.

Each family chose the date for the obit that made the most sense to them at the time, as they've explained in different interviews.

To me, find-a-grave is an open source database. I am going by today’s information in it. As you have said, such databases are edited, once new information emerges.

The traffic in such databases is large. Usually they are a good source of information, although mistakes might happen.

 

[stattlich1]

All well and good, but why would her mom lie about it? If she truly was allowed to listen to that portion of the audio, why would she say she heard them say "huh? What?" in the few seconds between "guys" and "down the hill" if what really occurred were screams?

For what you think you heard to be true, she would either have to lie about what she heard (making up something when she easily could have said "no comment") or lie about being allowed to listen to that portion in the first place.

This discussion comes up from time to time. I've listened to the recording. Many times. I've posted my thoughts previously and will stand by them. It's my opinion that if LE did indeed have one of the girls on tape screaming the words oh my God, they simply would have scrubbed it.

Am I being asked to believe nobody at the FBI, or LE involved in this case, would have heard the same? Like, say, the specialists who actually produced the sound clip? Why would they not have snipped it in it's entirety?

I just can't fathom the folks that produced the tape knew the words Oh My GOD were there, they attempted to muffle/disguise them, they listened to it themselves, and they said, yeah, that's good enough.

This old boy ain't buyin' it.

Auditory Pareidolia

For the record, I'm back to square one. Simplicity. Occam's razor. Likely a local who knew the area. Possibly a transient serial killer. Caught up to the girls on the bridge, marched them down the hill and across the creek, murdered them, and left.

Hopefully the killer is caught soon, the truth comes out, and I will personally eat as much crow as due to me for how wrong I've been over the years.

 

[sunshineray]

To me, find-a-grave is an open source database. I am going by today’s information in it. As you have said, such databases are edited, once new information emerges.

The traffic in such databases is large. Usually they are a good source of information, although mistakes might happen.

Why hasn't that date ever been fixed? It's such an easy thing to do especially the funeral home's website. That one and the Legacy site should just fix it already.

 

[Yemelyan]

To me, find-a-grave is an open source database. I am going by today’s information in it. As you have said, such databases are edited, once new information emerges.

The traffic in such databases is large. Usually they are a good source of information, although mistakes might happen.

The Find a Grave database may be open but the autopsy isn't.

When Robert Ives filed the official petition to keep the Delphi autopsies sealed, the information that both girls were killed in February 13th was contained on this legal court document:

Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports filed

Filed By:
State of Indiana


File Stamp:
03/28/2017

Order Issued

On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German. The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows: 1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana. 2) An investigation into these killings is ongoing.


This information at one time was pinned on all Delphi threads.
Source: Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #47

So I'm gonna go with what's in the court petitions, not what's on Find a Grave. MOO.

 

[Yemelyan]

Because 1. I think the police would have told her why they were blocking out the sounds for the public. And 2. Would you want to say I heard my child screaming her last sounds? Maybe they blocked it for her or maybe she didn't want to talk about it. Or maybe the police asked her not to discuss it.. Or maybe it didn't happen! But your reasons hold no more weight than any theory.

I have a question for you now.... if all that was said was "huh? What?" By Abby or libby, as you claim, why wouldn't the police have left that in? What would be the need to cut that out.

I'm not trying to convince you. Germany asked a question and I answered her, in my opinion. That's it. To each, their own.

If police blocked out the audio for her to spare her, if she didn't want to say she heard something distressing, or if she was asked not to discuss it, then all she had to say when asked in this interview is: I don't know. No comment. I'm not allowed to talk about it due to the investigation.

Instead, she said this:

Interviewer: So they released first the “down the hill” and then the “guys.” I’ve heard some people saying it was altogether one sentence, I’ve heard people saying it wasn’t, what do we know? Because I’ve heard all different things, I want to hear it from you.

AW: There is less than a 3 second gap in Guys down the hill…. There’s not long minutes of pause, there is seconds of pause.

Interviewer: Could the girls have been responding and they muted it out?

AW: I don’t think it was that. Rude as it sounds, it was the typical teenager, “Huh? What? Hm?” There's a brief half second pause…

Again, this is from AW's interview with Jason Hebert, which was linked on these threads multiple times. It's not what I claim, it's what AW said. This is how I arrived at my opinion. I understand that others may arrive at their opinions in different ways.

 

[Yemelyan]

@mpnola I realized I forgot to answer your question about why wouldn't LE have left something benign like "huh?" in the audio released to the public. AW actually answers this in the same interview, right after she talks about the half a second pause. She said that LE explained to her that in the publicly released version of the clip she just heard, they will want the public to focus on the man's voice, not anything the girls might say. She also talks about personally hearing more unreleased audio, including portions where the girls talked about the man and showed no sign that they knew his identity or thought he was joking around with them.

 

[Peppery]

This discussion comes up from time to time. I've listened to the recording. Many times. I've posted my thoughts previously and will stand by them. It's my opinion that if LE did indeed have one of the girls on tape screaming the words oh my God, they simply would have scrubbed it.

Am I being asked to believe nobody at the FBI, or LE involved in this case, would have heard the same? Like, say, the specialists who actually produced the sound clip? Why would they not have snipped it in it's entirety?

I just can't fathom the folks that produced the tape knew the words Oh My GOD were there, they attempted to muffle/disguise them, they listened to it themselves, and they said, yeah, that's good enough.

This old boy ain't buyin' it.

Auditory Pareidolia

For the record, I'm back to square one. Simplicity. Occam's razor. Likely a local who knew the area. Possibly a transient serial killer. Caught up to the girls on the bridge, marched them down the hill and across the creek, murdered them, and left.

Hopefully the killer is caught soon, the truth comes out, and I will personally eat as much crow as due to me for how wrong I've been over the years.

Agree with all of this.

My question is why did they leave any sound at all between guys ... DTH? They could have released it with no sound between or deleted the spaces completely.

The only reason I can come up with is they want BG to wonder and worry about what’s on the recording between the words. It’s totally possible BG was so high on adrenaline that he doesn’t remember the exact things spoken. I almost wonder if LE wanted him to worry they said something that points to his identity. For example, that guy in the blue coat or the weirdo with the funny hat.

But that doesn’t make much sense either because both AW and TL have said there’s nothing on the recording that suggests either girl knew him.

We just don’t know...

 

[Charlot123]

Commentary on Find A Grave can be edited by anyone and is not an official source of information, especially on time of death details. The autopsy in this case is sealed so time of death is not public information.

Each family chose the date for the obit that made the most sense to them at the time, as they've explained in different interviews.

To me, find-a-grave is an open source database. I am going by today’s information in it. As you have said, such databases are edited, once new information emerges.

The traffic in such databases is large. Usually they are a good source of information, although mistakes might happen.

Why hasn't that date ever been fixed? It's such an easy thing to do especially the funeral home's website. That one and the Legacy site should just fix it already.

It is the 13th on the tombstone.

I wouldn’t comment on the date, because who I am to know what happened there?

 

[Charlot123]

The Find a Grave database may be open but the autopsy isn't.

When Robert Ives filed the official petition to keep the Delphi autopsies sealed, the information that both girls were killed in February 13th was contained on this legal court document:

Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports filed

Filed By:
State of Indiana


File Stamp:
03/28/2017

Order Issued

On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German. The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows: 1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana. 2) An investigation into these killings is ongoing.


This information at one time was pinned on all Delphi threads.
Source: Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #47

So I'm gonna go with what's in the court petitions, not what's on Find a Grave. MOO.

I am not going with any source of information anymore. I see nothing credible.

My opinion, in 4 years, LE, with their different sketches, have thoroughly muddled the waters.

Too many YouTube channels and podcasts have been generated, without any real value.

If no one recognized the person on a photo, video, or recording, something is wrong. If no one responds to the appeal of a humongous reward, something is very wrong. Besides death, only fear can be an eternal silencer, and it is a bad thing.

I wish LE success in solving the case, it is horrible. RIP the girls.

My ever-lasting condolences to both mothers, Anna and Carrie. I hope they will get some closure.

 

[Yemelyan]

I am not going with any source of information anymore. I see nothing credible.

My opinion, in 4 years, LE, with their different sketches, have thoroughly muddled the waters.

Too many YouTube channels and podcasts have been generated, without any real value.

If no one recognized the person on a photo, video, or recording, something is wrong. If no one responds to the appeal of a humongous reward, something is very wrong. Besides death, only fear can be an eternal silencer, and it is a bad thing.

I wish LE success in solving the case, it is horrible. RIP the girls.

My ever-lasting condolences to both mothers, Anna and Carrie. I hope they will get some closure.

You don't think the court petition to seal the autopsy report, something that was sworn by the chief prosecuting attorney, is credible?

 

[Nancy1954]

I am almost through reading a book called.. 'American Predator'.. about a serial killer named Israel Keyes. What I have learned for sure from this book is that none of us know for sure exactly what/who we are dealing with here. And why should we if LE might not even know? Four years is an awfully long time in my opinion for no new information. Because LE just might not have any. Israel Keyes was an aberration, the first time LE had EVER come across a serial killer of THIS kind. So who is to say that there isn't another Israel Keyes out there? We can sit here and try to come up with any/all kinds of conjecture that we like but the bottom line is.. NOT A ONE OF US ACTUALLY KNOWS the MONSTER that we are dealing with here.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Agree with all of this.

My question is why did they leave any sound at all between guys ... DTH? They could have released it with no sound between or deleted the spaces completely.

The only reason I can come up with is they want BG to wonder and worry about what’s on the recording between the words. It’s totally possible BG was so high on adrenaline that he doesn’t remember the exact things spoken. I almost wonder if LE wanted him to worry they said something that points to his identity. For example, that guy in the blue coat or the weirdo with the funny hat.

But that doesn’t make much sense either because both AW and TL have said there’s nothing on the recording that suggests either girl knew him.

We just don’t know...

I think the other reason is LE doesn’t want to mislead what they have for evidence by suggesting “guys down the hill” was a complete sentence. The alternative option would’ve been for LE to release a separate one word audio clip with the word “guys” but then people would get going on the road to two different voices along with ridiculing LE for releasing a one word audio clip.

Given the tone of various comments over time by both LE and the families, I’ve come to conclusion what they say is really not intended to provide the general public with additional details of the crime - the purpose is to extinguish wild rumours and reduce hurtful speculation.
JMO

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I am almost through reading a book called.. 'American Predator'.. about a serial killer named Israel Keyes. What I have learned for sure from this book is that none of us know for sure exactly what/who we are dealing with here. And why should we if LE might not even know? Four years is an awfully long time in my opinion for no new information. Because LE just might not have any. Israel Keyes was an aberration, the first time LE had EVER come across a serial killer of THIS kind. So who is to say that there isn't another Israel Keyes out there? We can sit here and try to come up with any/all kinds of conjecture that we like but the bottom line is.. NOT A ONE OF US ACTUALLY KNOWS the MONSTER that we are dealing with here.

JMO

I read an FBI article that said that at any given time studies have shown that there are about 50 active serial killers roaming the country. The fact that FBI billboards went up all over the country after the Delphi murders indicated to me that there must have been something about the crime scene or the murders that pointed toward the BG being a serial killer. I also think LE is on to a suspect and it won’t be that much longer until he is taken into custody.

 

[minazoe]

I am almost through reading a book called.. 'American Predator'.. about a serial killer named Israel Keyes. What I have learned for sure from this book is that none of us know for sure exactly what/who we are dealing with here. And why should we if LE might not even know? Four years is an awfully long time in my opinion for no new information. Because LE just might not have any. Israel Keyes was an aberration, the first time LE had EVER come across a serial killer of THIS kind. So who is to say that there isn't another Israel Keyes out there? We can sit here and try to come up with any/all kinds of conjecture that we like but the bottom line is.. NOT A ONE OF US ACTUALLY KNOWS the MONSTER that we are dealing with here.

JMO

they do look up to other SK's and try to top them..as repugnant as IK is, he did get caught, he really screwed up and interestingly was also caught on film. the thing about him is that he did not clear up all the killings he was responsible for and also did not display his victims..( as far as we know)...I cant remember if they decided the mother daughter murdered on the parkway side by a national park picnic bench were no longer attributed to IK....I wondered a while back if Delphi could be related to the Seattle case..

moving around has long been one strategy to keep ahead of authorities.

mOO

 

[TL4S]

I am almost through reading a book called.. 'American Predator'.. about a serial killer named Israel Keyes. What I have learned for sure from this book is that none of us know for sure exactly what/who we are dealing with here. And why should we if LE might not even know? Four years is an awfully long time in my opinion for no new information. Because LE just might not have any. Israel Keyes was an aberration, the first time LE had EVER come across a serial killer of THIS kind. So who is to say that there isn't another Israel Keyes out there? We can sit here and try to come up with any/all kinds of conjecture that we like but the bottom line is.. NOT A ONE OF US ACTUALLY KNOWS the MONSTER that we are dealing with here.

JMO

You are completely right, we have no clue to the inner workings of the killer, how he committed the crimes, or why. But we also don't know, for a fact, that the Delphi killer is a SK. JMO

 

[asyousay]

I said 3 years ago they wouldn’t catch the person because you could already get the vibe LE was completely clueless.


The sketches did a lot of damage as they are worlds apart and that confused the public as well.


It’s so unfortunate that the police have failed them when they did their best to help them with clues imo

 

[minazoe]

most people who kill two little girls for no reason and leave them out in the trees are serial killers.

<modsnip>

in my mind this is a serial killer type of murder , this is sexual sadisim and pedophilia.

This is mOO and I respect all other opinions on this board.

 

[Nancy1954]

You are completely right, we have no clue to the inner workings of the killer, how he committed the crimes, or why. But we also don't know, for a fact, that the Delphi killer is a SK. JMO

Exactly my point TL4S.. we don't even know if the Delphi monster is a serial killer. He has obviously 'covered his tracks' very well. I wouldn't be surprised if.. like Israel Keyes.. he has no record to find. Scary how these monsters learn from others much like themselves.

 

[MistyWaters]

My opinion, in 4 years, LE, with their different sketches, have thoroughly muddled the waters.

.

If you view this case through the lens that LE don’t yet know who the suspect is, that the best they can do is work with the evidence they have hoping it will lead the way forward to a future arrest, then it’s not muddying the waters at all. As time passes often so does investigative focus, especially if a case isn’t solved immediately. It only becomes frustrating if one believes “they know” and are dropping clues for the public to figure out who it is, as if the real life murders of Libby and Abby resembles some sort of virtual reality game.

If anything I think DC made a mistake by leading people to believe either of the sketches perfectly depicted the suspect. I’m sure other police officers were grimacing as he made the grandiose announcement “this is the face...”.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If you view this case through the lens that LE don’t yet know who the suspect is, that the best they can do is work with the evidence they have hoping it will lead the way forward to a future arrest, then it’s not muddying the waters at all. As time passes often so does investigative focus, especially if a case isn’t solved immediately. It only becomes frustrating if one believes “they know” and are dropping clues for the public to figure out who it is, as if the real life murders of Libby and Abby resembles some sort of virtual reality game.

If anything I think DC made a mistake by leading people to believe either of the sketches perfectly depicted the suspect. I’m sure other police officers were grimacing as he made the grandiose announcement “this is the face...”.

JMO

I think LE has completely muddled the waters with their handling of the two sketches. If they would have stopped after saying new information has led us to believe this second sketch is the killer so forget about the first sketch, that would have been OK. But they didn’t. They have pretty much used every possible way to combine and swirl those two sketches together like a giant finger painting while at other times they have stated only the second one has any relevance.
In my opinion, the sketches themselves aren’t irrelevant, but all the confusion and backtracking and attempts to clarify by LE have made them irrelevant. That is a shame. By clearly explaining the situation with the second sketch when it was presented and putting it into context it could have mattered. Two years later after all LE has said, they don’t seem to know what the sketches mean either.
Just my thoughts.