Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

[taylorss]

Tricia gave permission to discuss the underwear after it was shared in an approved podcast.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

I’ve been listening to the Scene of the Crime podcast. I am happy there is an excellent, informative podcast about the facts of this case. There were things I did not know (like LE finding girls undergarments).
bbm

ETA: The "I've been" comment is by another poster, not me.

thanks! Didn’t know there was more out there....

Btw I never heard confirmed more than one undergarment? Was there more?

 

[SMK777]

Was it actually confirmed that the girls undergarments belonged to Libby or Abby, and was not just discarded garbage from another time? I recall past speculation about the latter.

 

[sandy_80]

I thought the source of the underwear thing was ( police scanner transcripts ) that day..
@SMK777
no this info wasnt given publicly by LE ..nor confirmed to be belonging to the victims.. they came from the source i posted above..as officers were allegedly arriving to the scene

 

[Yemelyan]

If you consider a local photojournalist for the Logansport Pharos-Tribune to be MSM, then that is a source for the information that there were articles of the girls' clothing found in the creek.

The business page of said journalist showing his watermarked photos of the search which were published in more than one media outlet, along with info about a searcher, the clothing and the creek:
Log into Facebook

(Click on the captions of pictures at this link to see his comments about what he saw that day.)

 

[Tnsmith0712]

I would agree. I was agreeing with the poster that the willingness to murder made the pool smaller.

The only way I guess you could connect the Delphi crime with JBC’s is that they both involve abduction and murder/attempted murder of minor females under the age of 14.

The crimes are equally brazen early afternoon and/or right next door. Appeared to have a place thought out for the attacks. Deaths and the attempt thereof was quick.

 

[Andreee]

Yes

Not really, but there is always hope.

 

[Falling Down]

And sometimes, the sexual gratification comes from the violence itself, and there is no actual sexual assault---just the act of murder.

Any number of crimes and serial crimes fit that description here in the U.S. going back over 40 years.

Good post.

 

[Falling Down]

I'm one of the few who thinks them being teenage girls has absolutely nothing to do with what happened. I think he was pestering them for money or any valuables he can exchange for drugs and when they eventually said no or told him off he killed them using a knife he had. Most likely cut their throats because he was so angry, maybe coming down from his high. Its an event that doesn't make too much sense from a sexual assault or kidnapping standpoint when there's two. I believe it's also part of the reason it hasn't been solved, its because the guy is either dead already or homeless drifting from place to place. Motive was always money.

Why would someone rob two young teenagers? Why wait there on the trail for people to cross his path to rob, watching opportunities walk on by, but then go after A&L?

Why go through all the trouble to walk the entire length of a bridge that's falling apart, to rob someone or some people?

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

That is the interesting question. Once he's isolated the bridge it's seemingly very simple to identify the ideal location across the creek. The tree cover is so thin immediately down the hill you'd have to be a fool not to take them a bit further.

The difficult aspect would be finding the bridge itself. But I don't think we should underestimate how many lowlifes there are who prowl for opportunities and locations. The guy who tried to abduct the 11 year old girl at the bus stop recently was already on camera, even if he had succeeded. There have to be offenders a bit brighter than that who make sure that lack of surveillance cameras is a top priority.

Let's say it had been a trail that lacked a bridge. Everything else remains the same. Would there be as much insistence that only a local could know about that trail?

I've often wondered the same. Take the bridge out of the equation, would a killer even care to attack there? Would anyone beyond Carroll County and the immediate surrounding countryside care to go there to walk/hike?

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

If you consider a local photojournalist for the Logansport Pharos-Tribune to be MSM, then that is a source for the information that there were articles of the girls' clothing found in the creek.

The business page of said journalist showing his watermarked photos of the search which were published in more than one media outlet, along with info about a searcher, the clothing and the creek:
Log into Facebook

(Click on the captions of pictures at this link to see his comments about what he saw that day.)

There's some false information that he put on that post. Far as I'm concerned, he didn't see much.

IT HAS BEEN A TRAGIC DAY IN CARROLL COUNTY, INDIANA, the scene of a double murder. One thing they never teach you in journalism school is how creepy it feels to have to cover a homicide. For several hours I photographed the search for two missing 13-year-old girls. This type of endeavor is stressful for the searchers, the first responders and also the media at the scene. Detectives found the bodies of two missing teens near a rural hiking trail below the abandoned Monon high railroad bridge. The bridge itself in incredibly beautiful making it difficult to witness a horrific murder scene so nearby. From 75-yards away I could see girls clothing in Deer Creek east of the bridge and knew full well that the girls where found very nearby. To walk in a place that a murderer had walked only a handful of hours earlier is extremely upsetting, but as journalists it is part of the business that simply needs done to tell the news of our area. Photos by J. Kyle Keener / Pharos-Tribune copyright 2017
2 Posts · 6 Items ·
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Detectives found the bodies of two missing teens near a rural hiking trail below the abandoned Monon high railroad bridge.

Loaded sentence, 100% inaccurate.

They were found on private property less than a 1/4 mile from the NW approach to the Monon High Bridge. By a private trail.

From 75-yards away I could see girls clothing in Deer Creek east of the bridge and knew full well that the girls where found very nearby.

OK, so maybe he used his camera to zoom in. I've yet to see with my eyes or hear with my own ears from LE that any clothing from the girls were found in the creek, certainly not anything that lines up with this reporter's FB post. I just searched for anything about clothing being in the creek in the MSM pertaining to the case, and came up zero on Google.

"knew full well the girls were found very nearby", well that right there says he didn't know where they were found. The one image he took from the bridge is over the creek, close to the NW end of the bridge. Line-of-sight the CS cannot be seen, it is well beyond the bend in the creek seen in the photo, the CS is obscured by trees. As the crow flies it's around 1,000 feet or so from where he was standing.

This is where "early news reports" in these cases meet reality.

It just irritates me that a huge amount of time has been wasted on this, and it's lead to all manner of crazy theories about what happened. All I know is it's plainly obvious BG wasn't there long at the CS. What actually happened there is anyone's guess, and I'm glad LE have been tight-lipped about specifics.

JMO

 

[somequestions]

Does anybody actually believe this will be solved?

Yes...someday.

This case is different from other cases in that you have actual evidence, video and audio of someone believed to be the killer. While it may take time, I think eventually it will be solved. The question is how long will it take to solve it?

The fear is that this man on the bridge was not 18-40 and local to the Delphi, Indiana area at the time of the crime. Because of that, maybe someone who might have called in a tip thinks to themselves that the person they have in mind does not fit the age and locality of the person LE is looking for. LE pointed to the second sketch and said "This is the person responsible.."

Most men who kill children are in their 20's and 30's. Most unusual places that are not well-known are known only to locals. It makes sense that LE thinks what they do, but I wonder if they are wrong in this case. Unfortunately we do not know what they know.

It could very well be the man pictured in the second sketch, but I wonder how they came to the conclusion that he is the person responsible for the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German? What if he was just someone an eyewitness saw walking out on the trails that day? The real killer then walked away.

 

[Falcon500]

Somewhere on some site, probably this one, I posted that the worst thing that the police could do is release sketches (or composite drawings as they were once called) to the public. Unless a living victim spent hours or days with a suspect the sketches cause weeks, months, or even years of unnecessary work for investigators. I’m betting that 80% of the calls that this task force received were about people who “kind of looked like the sketch”.

Look what’s happened on this forum. Back and forth, this guy, that guy, why a guy like that was there, was he a drifter, a truck driver, a bird watcher, when in fact the suspect could easily live in Delphi.

 

[Yemelyan]

There's some false information that he put on that post. Far as I'm concerned, he didn't see much.





Loaded sentence, 100% inaccurate.

They were found on private property less than a 1/4 mile from the NW approach to the Monon High Bridge. By a private trail.



OK, so maybe he used his camera to zoom in. I've yet to see with my eyes or hear with my own ears from LE that any clothing from the girls were found in the creek, certainly not anything that lines up with this reporter's FB post. I just searched for anything about clothing being in the creek in the MSM pertaining to the case, and came up zero on Google.

"knew full well the girls were found very nearby", well that right there says he didn't know where they were found. The one image he took from the bridge is over the creek, close to the NW end of the bridge. Line-of-sight the CS cannot be seen, it is well beyond the bend in the creek seen in the photo, the CS is obscured by trees. As the crow flies it's around 1,000 feet or so from where he was standing.

This is where "early news reports" in these cases meet reality.

It just irritates me that a huge amount of time has been wasted on this, and it's lead to all manner of crazy theories about what happened. All I know is it's plainly obvious BG wasn't there long at the CS. What actually happened there is anyone's guess, and I'm glad LE have been tight-lipped about specifics.

JMO

To apply the same level of journalistic integrity equally to all sources, I think it's fair to say that there are other things that were reported early on, have never been confirmed by LE, yet are accepted as general facts. One example would be this early article: https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...-bodies-found-as-missing-carroll-county-teens

Which says "sources say" a set of footprints led searchers to the victims' bodies. LE has never confirmed this; in fact in the Carroll County Q&A TL refused to confirm, citing an evidentiary aspect of the case. Yet I think most of us would say, yeah - I could believe that this early report from "sources" had an element of truth.

My opinion is that despite some geographic inaccuracies, the Logansport reporter was one of the few MSM boots on the ground at the search and things he heard early on from searchers/sources are important to the case. He was a credentialed member of the MSM just like, say, the reporter Alexis McAdams who has also reported on some things that LE has never confirmed, like boots being taken as evidence from Packers and that Libby shot the video by holding the phone a certain way. I think we don't question these "facts" she's reported on as much, probably because they don't really speak to a motive in the case. But if what the Logansport reporter said was true, then we know the motive and it's even more horrific than we thought.

It's also my opinion that if LE are not going to release a cause of death in this case, or confirm whether there were footprints at the scene, they are certainly not going to confirm that clothing was found in the creek as this, if anything, points to an evidentiary aspect of the case.

 

[DaveTheGreat]

Why would anybody be glad law enforcement is still tight lipped about motive if they even figured out one? How long has it been? More than 4 years? If you had a baby at that time your child would be almost in kindergarten next year.

I hope it gets solved but if thousands of tips and many professionals who have loads of information and technology available can't break it by now I'm not sure it ever will other than somebody running their mouth.

 

[Falling Down]

To apply the same level of journalistic integrity equally to all sources, I think it's fair to say that there are other things that were reported early on, have never been confirmed by LE, yet are accepted as general facts. One example would be this early article: https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...-bodies-found-as-missing-carroll-county-teens

Which says "sources say" a set of footprints led searchers to the victims' bodies. LE has never confirmed this; in fact in the Carroll County Q&A TL refused to confirm, citing an evidentiary aspect of the case. Yet I think most of us would say, yeah - I could believe that this early report from "sources" had an element of truth.

My opinion is that despite some geographic inaccuracies, the Logansport reporter was one of the few MSM boots on the ground at the search and things he heard early on from searchers/sources are important to the case. He was a credentialed member of the MSM just like, say, the reporter Alexis McAdams who has also reported on some things that LE has never confirmed, like boots being taken as evidence from Packers and that Libby shot the video by holding the phone a certain way. I think we don't question these "facts" she's reported on as much, probably because they don't really speak to a motive in the case. But if what the Logansport reporter said was true, then we know the motive and it's even more horrific than we thought.

It's also my opinion that if LE are not going to release a cause of death in this case, or confirm whether there were footprints at the scene, they are certainly not going to confirm that clothing was found in the creek as this, if anything, points to an evidentiary aspect of the case.

How would he have known anything in the creek area was related to the murders?

JMO

 

[somequestions]

Somewhere on some site, probably this one, I posted that the worst thing that the police could do is release sketches (or composite drawings as they were once called) to the public. Unless a living victim spent hours or days with a suspect the sketches cause weeks, months, or even years of unnecessary work for investigators. I’m betting that 80% of the calls that this task force received were about people who “kind of looked like the sketch”.

Look what’s happened on this forum. Back and forth, this guy, that guy, why a guy like that was there, was he a drifter, a truck driver, a bird watcher, when in fact the suspect could easily live in Delphi.

If when the case gets solved the suspect was living in Delphi at the time of the crime, I am going to be surprised. I will also be surprised if he is as young as the second sketch depicts.

But again, until you know what LE knows, it is hard to come to solid conclusions. In the Molly Bish case it could still be the man from the sketch who was driving the white car just like in the Abigail Williams and Liberty German case it could be the young man depicted in the second sketch seen out on the trails by an eyewitness. Both of these individuals may not have been caught because they simply were never found. Only when a case is solved can you begin to discuss what was done right or wrong concerning a particular investigation.

 

[Yemelyan]

How would he have known anything in the creek area was related to the murders?

JMO

JMO but I think, like the WRTV article I quoted above, he was reporting in part what he was hearing from "sources," i.e. searchers. He said at the link that he arrived to document the search at 10:30 and that they started hearing bodies were found at 12:15. I don't think much beyond the approximate location of the girls was widely known at that point. I'm not sure why he would lie about seeing the clothing in the creek if that's what he thought he saw. If he had gone there as a civilian searcher I would probably in fact question it, but he was there to string photos for numerous news outlets, and the info in his captions likely would have been used in the articles. Just seems weird for him to report a specific fact on the fb page he used for his official business like that if it was a lie. This is just my opinion of why I give credence to the information, I understand why others may disagree.

 

[taylorss]

I agree, IMO generally credited this report as being an accurate presentation of his interpretation of his contemporaneous observations. Since he was at the scene & then had to turn the 3D experience of everything he saw into flat words on a screen, there’s so much room for ambiguity.

IE just as made-up example, “nearby I saw....” can just as well mean: saw clearly across flat land from a mile away; was right there when I turned my head; after a short drive I came across; spotted hours later when I returned to the approximate location..... etc etc.

So .... yeah. I guess IMO the pics seemed to match with the text & there was nothing clearly inconsistent or off .... YMMV

 

[sandy_80]

Why would anybody be glad law enforcement is still tight lipped about motive if they even figured out one? How long has it been? More than 4 years? If you had a baby at that time your child would be almost in kindergarten next year.

I hope it gets solved but if thousands of tips and many professionals who have loads of information and technology available can't break it by now I'm not sure it ever will other than somebody running their mouth.

there are very old cold cases ( 20 to 40 years ) recently that updated and released new info.. and guess what.. no one cared or recalled anything

 

[Justice101]

My opinions:

1) Robbery of teenage girls would be highly unlikely.

2) Some clothing was also seen on a branch downstream but that could be totally unrelated. Unless LE says it, consider it suspect information.

3) I believe the case will be solved...eventually.

Everyone have a nice Memorial Day weekend!