Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

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Even when the 2nd sketch was released Apr/19, LE acknowledged the younger man might not have looked the same two years after the murders.

“On Wednesday, police said the man in the second sketch could be in his 20s to late 30s. His appearance could be different, police say, if he has grown facial hair or has longer or shorter hair.

"The Delphi community should reflect back on people they know in the community that look similar to the sketch released on April 22," the release said….”
2 sketches in Delphi murders case are not of the same man, police say
 
This is what we know about the two sketches (see post #449):

BG Sketch #1 is not the same person as BG Sketch #2.
BG Sketch #1 is no longer a person of interest.
BG Sketch #1 was composed from Witness Account #1.

BG Sketch #2 is representative of the face of the person captured in the video.
BG Sketch #2 is a more accurate depiction of the suspect.
BG Sketch #2 was composed from Witness Account #2.

For what it's worth, it appears the FBI has completely disregarded the first sketch.

<snip>

I've isolated my confusion to a single bullet item. It's the first term here, namely:

BG Sketch #1 is not the same person as BG Sketch #2

If this is accepted, it follows then that two people resembling the killer were present on that day, but only sketch 2, the one least resembling the killer in the video, is the killer. That almost can't be right. We are told the video is of the killer. The guy in sketch 1 looks by far the most like the video. But LE says sketch 2 is the guy in the video. Then consider that sketch 1 was out there for two years as the person to report if you see him.

It makes more sense to assume LE wants you to forget you ever saw sketch 1, but still to understand that the two drawings each represent different attempts to reconstruct ONE person, the killer. LE wants you to use sketch 2 and forget sketch 1. But there weren't two such people there that day
 
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I've isolated my confusion to a single bullet item. It's the first term here, namely:

BG Sketch #1 is not the same person as BG Sketch #2

If this is accepted, it follows then that two people resembling the killer were present on that day, but only sketch 2, the one least resembling the killer in the video, is the killer. That almost can't be right. We are told the video is of the killer. The guy in sketch 1 looks by far the most like the video. But LE says sketch 2 is the guy in the video. Then consider that sketch 1 was out there for two years as the person to report if you see him.

It makes more sense to assume LE wants you to forget you ever saw sketch 1, but still to understand that the two drawings each represent different attempts to reconstruct ONE person, the killer. LE wants you to use sketch 2 and forget sketch 1. But there weren't two such people there that day

It makes sense to me. A double homicide of two teens occurs, initially thought to only be missing until their bodies were discovered the following day. Local people are horrified that something so unthinkable could’ve occurred. Police ask for tips, everyone tries to think back who they might’ve sighted a couple of days prior and offer that information to LE. They might’ve received a dozen tips of sightings so it’s the job of LE to determine if one was of the killer.

After a few months tips are dwindling so they release the sketch of the older guy. But as time passes and maybe additional investigation firms down a timeline so they become doubtful on the older guy sketch, perhaps it wasn’t Feb 13th after all as possibly someone came forward who matched the sketch but was out and about on a different day. There’s no point in LE holding out a sketch of someone who’s not the suspect, so rather than holding a PC announcing they were wrong, two years later they frame it with a positive approach around taking a New Direction and release the next best sketch. We can’t blame LE with going with the best that they have to work with. Investigations often go down one path until eventually it reaches a dead end, so then they follow another. JMO
 
It makes sense to me. A double homicide of two teens occurs, initially thought to only be missing until their bodies were discovered the following day. Local people are horrified that something so unthinkable could’ve occurred. Police ask for tips, everyone tries to think back who they might’ve sighted a couple of days prior and offer that information to LE. They might’ve received a dozen tips of sightings so it’s the job of LE to determine if one was of the killer.

After a few months tips are dwindling so they release the sketch of the older guy. But as time passes and maybe additional investigation firms down a timeline so they become doubtful on the older guy sketch, perhaps it wasn’t Feb 13th after all as possibly someone came forward who matched the sketch but was out and about on a different day. There’s no point in LE holding out a sketch of someone who’s not the suspect, so rather than holding a PC announcing they were wrong, two years later they frame it with a positive approach around taking a New Direction and release the next best sketch. We can’t blame LE with going with the best that they have to work with. Investigations often go down one path until eventually it reaches a dead end, so then they follow another. JMO
I think this is the most plausible explanation. Although, such a scenario would make Carter’s “combination of the two” remark seem very misleading and unnecessarily confusing.
 
I think this is the most plausible explanation. Although, such a scenario would make Carter’s “combination of the two” remark seem very misleading and unnecessarily confusing.

I agree it’s especially confusing if one views a police sketch as a photograph. My question would be, if he knew the appearance of the suspect was a combination of the two sketches why not release an accurate sketch which is a combination of the two sketches?

In my opinion it was a lame attempt to backtrack from his earlier “this is the face”. The odds are quite high the suspect will be a combination of the two sketches - caucasian, between the ages of 18 and 59, facial hair or not, with two eyes a nose and a mouth.

“The sketch isn’t a photograph. A sketch is a sketch and that’s really important for everybody to understand," Carter said. "I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”..”
https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/isp-were-one-tip-away-from-solving-delphi-murders
 
I have tried to think of things as well -

His route - but LE believes he’s familiar with the Delphi area and trails so there’s nothing that would stand out about that as unique.

Cause of death - Surely anyone who knows anybody associated with Delphi, who exhibits behaviour indicating they’re capable of killing another human is sufficient? How the girls were murdered is secondary. It’s not as if someone would be sitting back “oh I know he only kills people by stabbing” awaiting an officially announced COD.

Vehicle - This one has reached a dead end a few times in prior cases. Unless LE are absolutely certain the suspect is known to be associated with a specific vehicle it can just as easily lead an investigation in an entirely wrong direction. Besides, LE has access to vehicle registry information without the need for public assistance.

Any items found near or at the crime scene - Was anything found that would be unequivocally associated to the killer, we don’t know.

Audio/video - LE claims that’s it, as far as the killer’s audio and video. As for the girls chatting, if LE, other specialists and professionals and the family are unable to identify any ‘clues’ from the audio, there’s no point in LE releasing to the public what would obviously cause needless heartbreak and anguish to their loved ones.

Shoes - If a footprint was discovered in mud, was it clear enough to determine shoe size, make and style of footwear almost 24 hours later and can LE rule out nobody else created that footprint? We don’t know the answer to that either.

I can’t think of anything else…..?

We don't know if ropes were used and tied a significant way. We don't know what murder weapons were used. Maybe a specific type of hunting knife that not EVERYONE uses? Signatures could also be familiar somehow to a person who is very close to the killer, but, again, we don't know what the signatures are. There's, unfortunately, A LOT of information we STILL don't know.

I agree, it's time for LE to share more.
 
“The sketch isn’t a photograph. A sketch is a sketch and that’s really important for everybody to understand," Carter said. "I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”..”
https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/isp-were-one-tip-away-from-solving-delphi-murders

I have a slightly different interpretation of the quote in bold, but it's based off of only reading the statement. If it's part of a longer interview with additional context then I could be definitely be wrong.

I read this that Carter believes the individual will end up being a combination of sketch 2 and the video still. The reason for my interpretation is that he was previously talking about how a sketch isn't a photograph. Then he makes the statement about it likely being a combination.

I could definitely be wrong and apologize if I missed a more complete audio/video of the interview that provided additional context.
 
I have a slightly different interpretation of the quote in bold, but it's based off of only reading the statement. If it's part of a longer interview with additional context then I could be definitely be wrong.

I read this that Carter believes the individual will end up being a combination of sketch 2 and the video still. The reason for my interpretation is that he was previously talking about how a sketch isn't a photograph. Then he makes the statement about it likely being a combination.

I could definitely be wrong and apologize if I missed a more complete audio/video of the interview that provided additional context.

He's talked about his view of the sketches in other places, though, and he has said explicitly that it's both of the two sketches that he believes capture elements of the killer's face.

Here's one example of his answer in an interview he did:
I also believe very strongly that the sketches we have, obviously, are not photographs. They are what a person remembers. And I believe that when an arrest is made — and I still think that will happen, that we’ll be able to lay those two sketches over one another and remove them and find the face of the killer.

Source: Delphi Murders: Superintendent Doug Carter Interview / 4 Year Anniversary - CrimeLights

Also this interview (from two weeks after the April 2019 press conference) gives a complete view of his interpretation of the two sketches, at around minute 3:46:
Interviewer: To be clear...you don't want them to look at both sketches anymore, you only want the newly released sketch, correct?
Carter: That's correct. But remember - a sketch is not a photograph, it's something similar to a resemblance. The likelihood of this being something between the two is probably pretty strong. But again, that's a subjective opinion based on what I believe.

Source:
 
Exactly. Both sketches are depictions of the killer. That is, NOT two different people.

Not everyone thinks they look like the same person. I see sketch 1 as an older, seedier version of sketch 2 with a mismatch or two. (That chin, mostly.)

That kind of thing can be expected. Two different witnesses and apparently two different sketch artists. The eye of the beholder is in play at every phase of the process.
 
I've isolated my confusion to a single bullet item. It's the first term here, namely:

BG Sketch #1 is not the same person as BG Sketch #2

If this is accepted, it follows then that two people resembling the killer were present on that day, but only sketch 2, the one least resembling the killer in the video, is the killer. That almost can't be right. We are told the video is of the killer. The guy in sketch 1 looks by far the most like the video. But LE says sketch 2 is the guy in the video. Then consider that sketch 1 was out there for two years as the person to report if you see him.
EXACTLY my confusion.
 
The Delphi case wasn't helped by the sketch that was released first, because, IMO, it looked too much like a photograph, which led to a feeling in the public that every feature was 100% accurate and that it was a "real" person.

Let's say you go grocery shopping and spend about the same amount of time you usually would observing other shoppers (that is to say, not that much time because you didn't realize that anything untoward was going on). Later that same week, police come to your door and tell you that you may have observed a murderer in the baking goods aisle and they are hoping you can describe him well enough to make a composite sketch of his face.

So you sit with a forensic sketch artist and they help you make a composite - by definition, creating a face, from your memory, by piecemeal. Setting aside the biological question of if piecemeal fashion is even how our brain remembers faces (there's good evidence that it's not), the sketch artist might start at the top and ask you to describe the hairline of a man you saw in the store that day. Or, they might show you a book of several different hairlines to choose from. Then they'd work their way down - looking at several different versions of eyebrows, nose shape, cheekbones, choosing a face width, lip sizes, chin. You probably are not going to be accurate on every feature. You're going off your memory and it's not that strong because you didn't realize you'd be quizzed on this later. Probably the face had one or two elements that you're pretty sure about because they were more noticeable, for whatever reason. Let's say its the nose and a widow's peak in the hair. But the eyes and chin you end up picking for the composite are more generic because you're just not sure.

So now that the sketch is done, is that a real person you're looking at? I'd say no, it's not a real person. It's your memory, and at best it's a resemblance, as Doug Carter called it. Some features may be pretty close to accurate and others are definitely off or, at least, don't contribute to what the person actually looks like. Furthermore, it is a common technique for sketch artists to slightly exaggerate those features in the image that you were confident about (think about how a cariacature artist might draw Jay Leno's chin). The hope is that by drawing them in a slightly exaggerated fashion, it would help that feature stand out to a person who knows this man well enough to recognize him from a not-totally-accurate rendering.

Let's say that both you and one other shopper were able to complete composite sketches of a man seen in the baking aisle. How similar might they be? You noticed his nose and hair. The other shopper didn't notice those things, but noticed eyes and lips. Neither of you really noticed how old the person was. The images created from the memories of each of you actually could look like different people to the brain of someone who wasn't in the store and never saw the man at all. But are they different people? Maybe you are describing one man, and the other person someone else. Maybe it's the same man, but you each noticed different things, or one of you had a better memory. We will never really know, because people notice and remember different things and these sketches are memories, not photographs. What's likely is that when the man from the grocery store is found, he won't look exactly like either sketch but there will be small things you can pull out of each one that were somewhat correct.

So what good to the public is a composite sketch then, if it's not going to look exactly like a real person? The hope is that it looks similar enough that 1. another witness in the area is triggered to come forward to describe what they observed, or 2. someone who knows that subject personally is able to recognize some of the features well enough to talk to police about their suspicions. Usually this does not occur in a vacuum. The recognition occurs because someone sees a resemblance AND puts together information about that person's actions that fit what is known about the crime.

See this in action in this case: EU graduate, former Afton cop charged with Missouri murders

A woman's 75 year old mother was raped and murdered. A witness saw a man driving a jeep in the vicinity of the crime. The composite sketch of that witness's memory was placed on a billboard that the victim's daughter drove by every day. Every day she stared at it and thought, "I don't know who that is." But one day a lightbulb went on and she realized she recognized the chin - just the chin - though the rest of the face was wrong. She realized the chin looked like that of a man she used to date years before. She went to police with that information and that man, Jeffrey Moreland, was later linked to her mother's murder by DNA as well as other murders and rapes.
 
I could be completely wrong on this but it seems to me that most sketches released by LE are not as real looking as OBG sketch is. OBG sketch looks like it was drawn from a photograph. This makes me think that OBG was drawn form the poor quality video. JMHO
 
The Delphi case wasn't helped by the sketch that was released first, because, IMO, it looked too much like a photograph, which led to a feeling in the public that every feature was 100% accurate and that it was a "real" person.

Let's say you go grocery shopping and spend about the same amount of time you usually would observing other shoppers (that is to say, not that much time because you didn't realize that anything untoward was going on). Later that same week, police come to your door and tell you that you may have observed a murderer in the baking goods aisle and they are hoping you can describe him well enough to make a composite sketch of his face.

So you sit with a forensic sketch artist and they help you make a composite - by definition, creating a face, from your memory, by piecemeal. Setting aside the biological question of if piecemeal fashion is even how our brain remembers faces (there's good evidence that it's not), the sketch artist might start at the top and ask you to describe the hairline of a man you saw in the store that day. Or, they might show you a book of several different hairlines to choose from. Then they'd work their way down - looking at several different versions of eyebrows, nose shape, cheekbones, choosing a face width, lip sizes, chin. You probably are not going to be accurate on every feature. You're going off your memory and it's not that strong because you didn't realize you'd be quizzed on this later. Probably the face had one or two elements that you're pretty sure about because they were more noticeable, for whatever reason. Let's say its the nose and a widow's peak in the hair. But the eyes and chin you end up picking for the composite are more generic because you're just not sure.

So now that the sketch is done, is that a real person you're looking at? I'd say no, it's not a real person. It's your memory, and at best it's a resemblance, as Doug Carter called it. Some features may be pretty close to accurate and others are definitely off or, at least, don't contribute to what the person actually looks like. Furthermore, it is a common technique for sketch artists to slightly exaggerate those features in the image that you were confident about (think about how a cariacature artist might draw Jay Leno's chin). The hope is that by drawing them in a slightly exaggerated fashion, it would help that feature stand out to a person who knows this man well enough to recognize him from a not-totally-accurate rendering.

Let's say that both you and one other shopper were able to complete composite sketches of a man seen in the baking aisle. How similar might they be? You noticed his nose and hair. The other shopper didn't notice those things, but noticed eyes and lips. Neither of you really noticed how old the person was. The images created from the memories of each of you actually could look like different people to the brain of someone who wasn't in the store and never saw the man at all. But are they different people? Maybe you are describing one man, and the other person someone else. Maybe it's the same man, but you each noticed different things, or one of you had a better memory. We will never really know, because people notice and remember different things and these sketches are memories, not photographs. What's likely is that when the man from the grocery store is found, he won't look exactly like either sketch but there will be small things you can pull out of each one that were somewhat correct.

So what good to the public is a composite sketch then, if it's not going to look exactly like a real person? The hope is that it looks similar enough that 1. another witness in the area is triggered to come forward to describe what they observed, or 2. someone who knows that subject personally is able to recognize some of the features well enough to talk to police about their suspicions. Usually this does not occur in a vacuum. The recognition occurs because someone sees a resemblance AND puts together information about that person's actions that fit what is known about the crime.

See this in action in this case: EU graduate, former Afton cop charged with Missouri murders

A woman's 75 year old mother was raped and murdered. A witness saw a man driving a jeep in the vicinity of the crime. The composite sketch of that witness's memory was placed on a billboard that the victim's daughter drove by every day. Every day she stared at it and thought, "I don't know who that is." But one day a lightbulb went on and she realized she recognized the chin - just the chin - though the rest of the face was wrong. She realized the chin looked like that of a man she used to date years before. She went to police with that information and that man, Jeffrey Moreland, was later linked to her mother's murder by DNA as well as other murders and rapes.
That’s an amazing story.:eek:
 
The two sketches are worthless at this time. Partly because of all the attempts by LE to try and clarify why there are two sketches, disregard this one, oh no don’t really disregard it sort of look at it as if it melded into the other one, one is the killer one is not, two different people, not really. The other reason they are worthless is that there is no context on the second sketch. I know LE said it came three days after the murders blah blah blah, but why are they pointing at that as the killer now? Some further context was needed for people to buy into that. It wasn’t provided and frankly I think most people still are going with the first sketch. Everybody is confused including LE.
 
The two sketches are worthless at this time. Partly because of all the attempts by LE to try and clarify why there are two sketches, disregard this one, oh no don’t really disregard it sort of look at it as if it melded into the other one, one is the killer one is not, two different people, not really. The other reason they are worthless is that there is no context on the second sketch. I know LE said it came three days after the murders blah blah blah, but why are they pointing at that as the killer now? Some further context was needed for people to buy into that. It wasn’t provided and frankly I think most people still are going with the first sketch. Everybody is confused including LE.

I'm inclined to agree. The most probable outcome is kind of like that other case I mentioned - that there are just a couple of features in one or the other sketch that are correct and if the right person had a lightning bolt moment they could tell police what they knew. But no one is going to figure it out from comparing side by side pictures. It's going to have to be someone that knows a suspect personally and can put the image together with their knowledge of his actions on that day or since that are suspicious.

I think even Carter said that at this point people should focus most on the body of the person in the video. Because even without a face, you would know the body and movements of your father, brother, etc.
 
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