Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[infinit]

IMO the lack of details tells us nothing. They don't release that type of thing to the public.
With that said, I think they were probably strangled.

That's not true though, there are a number of unsolved homicide cases from the same year and same state where cause of death has been released: 2017 Homicides in Indianapolis

 

[FrostedGlass]

That's not true though, there are a number of unsolved homicide cases from the same year and same state where cause of death has been released: 2017 Homicides in Indianapolis

Your correct.
Carroll Co. is very tight-lipped with that type of info, though. How many details have you seen about this case?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Bringing this here just so we can feel worse about the chances of an arrest ever being made in this case.
This is from 2019 but I would guess it still applies.

Study claims Indiana is pretty bad at solving homicides

 

[JnRyan]

Here is another good article from Psychology Today! This attempts to define an organized serial killer versus a disorganized serial killer.
How the FBI Profiles Serial Offenders
MichMan015

Well, I'm certainly no forensic psychologist. (My only 'forensic' experience is in white collar crimes and that was in determining the extent of the monetary damages.) And one article isn't really going to be a solid basis. But based solely on this article, I see aspects of both organized and disorganized here. And some not too clear cut.

The crime was premeditated or purely spur of the moment? While I don't believe he had known the girls or even met them previous to that day, I can see an argument for premeditated murder. That is, he fantasized about such a killing or abduction for quite some time, possibly years. If he had been to the trail sometime before the murders he might have even looked at various spots on the trail for possibilities as well as other locales. So if he stumbles across two potential victims in his ideal location (bridge) with the ideal circumstance (no others nearby) is this premeditated even he had no idea who the girls were? Could he have seen the girls go out on the bridge and hung back out of sight watching his back trail till he went out to quickly act out what he had rehearsed over and over in his mind? Or was it purely happenstance - i.e., he saw the girls and situation and immediately sized up it as opportunity and improvised it all the way? (That's probably still premeditation in the legal sense, but I'm getting at how planned out, i.e., organized, this killer was.) Of course, there is the chance he had something else in mind and something went sideways with one of them and he realized he had to kill the other girl. (I tend to believe, though, that murder was his intent from the beginning.)

Unlike Ted Bundy (organized killer) he did not take the bodies else where after the murders based on what the sheriff has stated. However, he apparently directed the girls to an area off the trail to a spot where he killed them, so was that an actual attempt to hide the bodies? Organized or disorganized? (They consider BTK to be an organized killer but he left all but one of the bodies in the residences where they were killed.)

And, of course, we don't even know if this is a serial killer. To the best of our knowledge the DNA found at the scene doesn't match anything in CODIS from another murder or sexual assault.

I often wonder if this killer is basically a loner living in a sloppy residence with no sexual relationships. Or is this a family guy, who after committing the murders, picked up take out dinners and got home in time in Lafayette or Indianapolis to sit down with his spouse or girl friend for a meal? If the second is the case, I can see those around him seeing a resemblance to one of the sketches but dismissing him as a very unlikely killer. After all, when the sketch of Morgan Harrington's killer in Charlottesville VA came out Jesse Matthew's co-workers at the Charlottesville cab company made fun of him as looking like the killer. Five years after Harrington's murder, Matthew killed UVA student, Hannah Graham.
Murder of Morgan Dana Harrington - Wikipedia

 

[Justice101]

[QUOTE=" After all, when the sketch of Morgan Harrington's killer in Charlottesville VA came out Jesse Matthew's co-workers at the Charlottesville cab company made fun of him as looking like the killer. Five years after Harrington's murder, Matthew killed UVA student,[/QUOTE]

This is so true! And the co-workers even joked to him that he grew dreadlocks in order to disguise his appearance which he had done. And they still (to my knowledge) did not turn him in. They even knew he had visited his grandmother in Fairfax multiple times when the 2005 rape occurred that got his DNA.

People sometimes say they can't believe person X could do such a thing.. .but it does happen

 

[JnRyan]

And the co-workers even joked to him that he grew dreadlocks in order to disguise his appearance which he had done. And they still (to my knowledge) did not turn him in. They even knew he had visited his grandmother in Fairfax multiple times when the 2005 rape occurred that got his DNA.

I had forgotten about changing his appearance and his connection to northern VA. And what does LE frequently say - the killer may have changed his appearance recently.

 

[Falling Down]

@Falling Down.. I don't think we are all ever going to agree on what LE chose NOT to do after midnight, but I was stating that LE could have gotten help from another district, NOT volunteers. Men and women that had the ability, training and qualifications to search that surrounding area that night, when the searchers on call got too tired. As for not being able to see anything, what about that huge searchlight in the cemetery that they used the very next evening? It could have been used the first night. It is MY OPINION that LE didn't feel that the girls were in trouble. That they were being young teenage girls. If it had been MY daughter out there missing that cold February night, they would NEVER have had me say it was okay to call off that search until morning. Everyone is different, we all react to things differently, and before I get replies that the families are not to be blamed, I am NOT in any way putting blame on ANYONE involved (except the murderer), I am only stating MY OPINION. We all agree that it would not have changed the outcome. JMO

To gather all those resources on short notice would have been impossible. Of course they had lights the next night, it was a death investigation.

People were searching well into the night, news reports which are still on YouTube bear this out. It's dark, it's cold, it's dangerous in that gorge. The latter is why they called off the ad hoc search that evening.

There was no Amber Alert, nobody witnessed anything. So no real sense of urgency.

There was an Amber Alert and related active murder investigation in Gary that same evening, the alert was for the daughter of the deceased who ended up being part of the murder. ISP put a lot of resources towards that, along I-65, etc. So there were resources pulled towards that area, I'd imagine Lafayette ISP barracks was involved in the Gary investigation re: the missing girl.

 

[minazoe]

ever since the carwash and the trestle I have had JBC in my sights. mOO

 

[carbuff]

ever since the carwash and the trestle I have had JBC in my sights. mOO

That and the fact he regularly spent weeks at a time camping out under bridges.

 

[WildHuncher]

I have to chose between "JBC is the killer" and "The killer left no clear DNA trace at the scene." Can't believe both things at the same time. It's also possible that both statements are false.

From the moment I realized the preceding, I haven't known what to think.

 

[Tower]

I disagree.

With that kind of thinking, that would increase by at least twenty-fold the number of (eventually determined to be un-necessary) searches. 99.9% of missing teens like this are either runaways (which LE would have quickly ruled out in this case) or they may have assumed the girls made different plans/walked back/got another ride)...or it was a body recovery operation not a search for the living. Why further endanger the searchers late at night when they could regroup in the morning when they had light to resume? How are you going to search a creek at night with a bunch of volunteers?

There are 460,000 kids that are reported missing each year. 460,000! There is a good reason why paid professionals make rules for when and how to do searches. 50% of missing teens are found within 3 hours. Who would have thought that one of the world's most bizarre and sinister double murder cases would have taken place on two teenage girls there on that trail in a little town in Indiana?

In my opinion, I think they had to exercise the best judgement they could given what they had at the time. It's easy to second guess when you are on the sidelines and not the decision maker.

Here is what I believe LE knew at the time:
1) The girls did not answer to when yelled out to by dozens of people searching that area that night. Imagine how far some of their voices would have carried...all the way up the creek and all the way down. No answer. Crickets chirping. No cell phone pick up. Two people.. if one was hurt, the other would have answered.

2) Given that, you could almost presume they had either (a) left the area on their own or (b) they were already deceased (drowning, fall from bridge, etc. in which case a search for finding them alive or at all in the dark was not the case).

This is just my (informed) opinion though...

It must depend on the jurisdiction. In my area, our SAR personnel, including highly trained volunteers, would have continued this search through the night for several reasons. The young age of the missing girls, their history of never running away before, their known starting location (they were dropped off on a specific hike, not missing from home), the cold temperatures and their lack of preparation (no jackets, food, tents). An adult may not get an overnight search, but SAR will keep searching for anyone deemed vulnerable, depending on many circumstances, especially weather. That could be related to our particular climate, etc. No untrained volunteers would be involved. My husband has trained to be a SAR volunteer and it is extremely difficult, physical and time consuming to qualify to be a volunteer, with required climbing and rope skills as well as wilderness first aid.
IMO, Jmo etc

edit: grammar

 

[TTF14]

I have to chose between "JBC is the killer" and "The killer left no clear DNA trace at the scene." Can't believe both things at the same time. It's also possible that both statements are false.

From the moment I realized the preceding, I haven't known what to think.

BBM - not sure what you mean by this?

 

[WildHuncher]

BBM - not sure what you mean by this?

Happy to clarify what I'm confused about.

From the first article I read about JBC, I was sold on him for Bridge Guy. Everything about him was the perfect match. I knew there was a chance it could all be a coincidence, but the odds seemed ridiculous.

The Gray Hughes podcast interview with Anonymous Insider Hearsayer seemed fairly plausible to me. It didn't hurt that, if all that stuff about impressive strength is true, that JBC with his impulsiveness and prison muscles was uniquely suited for the role of BG in what the phone caller was telling Hughes.

Then, however, I considered the attack JBC performed on his known victim. This guy leaves DNA. He's not exactly the Napoleon of Crime.

But the podcast version of BG left no DNA. Maybe JBC did it and the podcast is bogus. Maybe the podcast has good info and JBC isn't the guy. But I can't buy JBC leaving no DNA.

So suddenly nothing is clear. Not even my posts.

Maybe even the podcast is bogus and JBC didn't do this one.

 

[TTF14]

Happy to clarify what I'm confused about.

From the first article I read about JBC, I was sold on him for Bridge Guy. Everything about him was the perfect match. I knew there was a chance it could all be a coincidence, but the odds seemed ridiculous.

The Gray Hughes podcast interview with Anonymous Insider Hearsayer seemed fairly plausible to me. It didn't hurt that, if all that stuff about impressive strength is true, that JBC with his impulsiveness and prison muscles was uniquely suited for the role of BG in what the phone caller was telling Hughes.

Then, however, I considered the attack JBC performed on his known victim. This guy leaves DNA. He's not exactly the Napoleon of Crime.

But the podcast version of BG left no DNA. Maybe JBC did it and the podcast is bogus. Maybe the podcast has good info and JBC isn't the guy. But I can't buy JBC leaving no DNA.

So suddenly nothing is clear. Not even my posts.

Maybe even the podcast is bogus and JBC didn't do this one.

Ah, ok. Gotcha. I agree, JBC's DNA would have been there if the crime had gone down like the anonymous caller said (and for the record, I don't believe him).

 

[minazoe]

Happy to clarify what I'm confused about.

From the first article I read about JBC, I was sold on him for Bridge Guy. Everything about him was the perfect match. I knew there was a chance it could all be a coincidence, but the odds seemed ridiculous.

The Gray Hughes podcast interview with Anonymous Insider Hearsayer seemed fairly plausible to me. It didn't hurt that, if all that stuff about impressive strength is true, that JBC with his impulsiveness and prison muscles was uniquely suited for the role of BG in what the phone caller was telling Hughes.

Then, however, I considered the attack JBC performed on his known victim. This guy leaves DNA. He's not exactly the Napoleon of Crime.

But the podcast version of BG left no DNA. Maybe JBC did it and the podcast is bogus. Maybe the podcast has good info and JBC isn't the guy. But I can't buy JBC leaving no DNA.

So suddenly nothing is clear. Not even my posts.

Maybe even the podcast is bogus and JBC didn't do this one.

JBC did not have time to clean up his little project in the basement..I am sure he would have taken care of any DNA except for he got busted... they don't clean up DNA as they go..they do when disposing or concealing..mOO

 

[GA_Peach]

I have been away from this thread for a bit. Have the police made any statement about JBC? In the past, they have acknowledged that any alleged suspect is currently not a person of interest. To be clear, I am paraphrasing, not quoting, LE.

 

[Yemelyan]

I have been away from this thread for a bit. Have the police made any statement about JBC? In the past, they have acknowledged that any alleged suspect is currently not a person of interest. To be clear, I am paraphrasing, not quoting, LE.

After the first "we are looking into him," LE have not said anything for or against his involvement.

But as far as I know, there are several people linked to the case in MSM for whom LE has also issued no statement for or against, even oblique ones. None of these people have been named official POIs, but one is a local rapist who killed himself; one is a rapist and murderer from farther away who is now jailed and under suspicion for other crimes in the Midwest; one is an Indiana man who molested children who lived close to the Ohio border.

Sometimes I think LE has to come out and say "we are looking into this person, thanks" just to get the public to calm down. Can you imagine how many internet sleuths tipped JBC, though the only thing they knew about him was the Kokomo crime and whatever they dug up on his Facebook?

Having said that, I hope it is JBC so this nightmare will be over for the families. I don't think LE's silence so far says one thing or another about his involvement, unfortunately.

 

[minazoe]

I think with JBC there is a great deal to look into..this whole thing becomes very complex and requires intense untangling to figure out how many victims there could be, all of his movements before and after his many years in jail..because before this he was not known as a sex offender..possible murderer of children..

doesn't mean he wasn't doing these things...he was just never caught..

so they have the case to make with the nine year old
they have the Delphi case of significant interest
possible other victims/cases /cold cases etc.

JBC is a whole world of interesting and LE has gone dead silent.

mOO

 

[raja]

If we look at the assumption that some type of DNA like touch DNA was found on the sweatshirt why would it only be on the sweatshirt. I'm not saying that this is the case but you would think there would be other touch DNA on other clothing if that makes any sense. I can not get it out of my mind that the girls were covered, possibly drug through the mud obliterating DNA evidence. Perhaps the sweatshirt was off prior to that. I can not get the picture out of my mind that JBC posted the day after the murders of his dogs rolling in mud. This is certainly an out there thought but it keeps coming back to me.

 

[carbuff]

If we look at the assumption that some type of DNA like touch DNA was found on the sweatshirt why would it only be on the sweatshirt. I'm not saying that this is the case but you would think there would be other touch DNA on other clothing if that makes any sense. I can not get it out of my mind that the girls were covered, possibly drug through the mud obliterating DNA evidence. Perhaps the sweatshirt was off prior to that. I can not get the picture out of my mind that JBC posted the day after the murders of his dogs rolling in mud. This is certainly an out there thought but it keeps coming back to me.

That was a disturbing picture under the circumstances.