Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[FrostedGlass]

I am with you. I gave up on trying to make sense of the “twist” and also the “shack” long ago.

I laughed out loud at that one. For me, it's like one of those things that, once seen, you can't un-see it.

 

[Justice101]

@ 303gmf.. I share yours and sunshineray's thoughts and always have. The search that night should never have been stopped by LE, I don't care how tired people were, you call assistance in from other districts if necessary, you do whatever you have to do to find those two girls on a cold February night. Two girls that were known to be responsible young ladies, that would never have chosen to put their families through worry like this. It should have been police protocol. But it was just the right thing to do, that is why.

I disagree.

With that kind of thinking, that would increase by at least twenty-fold the number of (eventually determined to be un-necessary) searches. 99.9% of missing teens like this are either runaways (which LE would have quickly ruled out in this case) or they may have assumed the girls made different plans/walked back/got another ride)...or it was a body recovery operation not a search for the living. Why further endanger the searchers late at night when they could regroup in the morning when they had light to resume? How are you going to search a creek at night with a bunch of volunteers?

There are 460,000 kids that are reported missing each year. 460,000! There is a good reason why paid professionals make rules for when and how to do searches. 50% of missing teens are found within 3 hours. Who would have thought that one of the world's most bizarre and sinister double murder cases would have taken place on two teenage girls there on that trail in a little town in Indiana?

In my opinion, I think they had to exercise the best judgement they could given what they had at the time. It's easy to second guess when you are on the sidelines and not the decision maker.

Here is what I believe LE knew at the time:
1) The girls did not answer to when yelled out to by dozens of people searching that area that night. Imagine how far some of their voices would have carried...all the way up the creek and all the way down. No answer. Crickets chirping. No cell phone pick up. Two people.. if one was hurt, the other would have answered.

2) Given that, you could almost presume they had either (a) left the area on their own or (b) they were already deceased (drowning, fall from bridge, etc. in which case a search for finding them alive or at all in the dark was not the case).

This is just my (informed) opinion though...

 

[Nancy1954]

@ Justice101.. I forgot to add JMO.. and it is just my opinion. But I stand by my opinion. We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I disagree.

With that kind of thinking, that would increase by at least twenty-fold the number of (eventually determined to be un-necessary) searches. 99.9% of missing teens like this are either runaways (which LE would have quickly ruled out in this case) or they may have assumed the girls made different plans/walked back/got another ride)...or it was a body recovery operation not a search for the living. Why further endanger the searchers late at night when they could regroup in the morning when they had light to resume? How are you going to search a creek at night with a bunch of volunteers?

There are 460,000 kids that are reported missing each year. 460,000! There is a good reason why paid professionals make rules for when and how to do searches. 50% of missing teens are found within 3 hours. Who would have thought that one of the world's most bizarre and sinister double murder cases would have taken place on two teenage girls there on that trail in a little town in Indiana?

In my opinion, I think they had to exercise the best judgement they could given what they had at the time. It's easy to second guess when you are on the sidelines and not the decision maker.

Here is what I believe LE knew at the time:
1) The girls did not answer to when yelled out to by dozens of people searching that area that night. Imagine how far some of their voices would have carried...all the way up the creek and all the way down. No answer. Crickets chirping. No cell phone pick up. Two people.. if one was hurt, the other would have answered.

2) Given that, you could almost presume they had either (a) left the area on their own or (b) they were already deceased (drowning, fall from bridge, etc. in which case a search for finding them alive or at all in the dark was not the case).

This is just my (informed) opinion though...

I think I’ll have to side with @Nancy1954 on this one.
You acknowledge that LE would have concluded quickly that these girls were not runaways and maybe they had just “made other plans”. Certainly by midnight that should have been clearly not the answer...movies were out, friends had been called, they didn’t call to say “ oh, we forgot you were picking us up 8 hours ago”. So now it’s OK for LE to just shrug, head home and come back tomorrow to look for the bodies?
Each missing child presents a unique situation. The heck with statistics. These two young girls were missing, they were not dressed for the weather overnight, there was no indication they had left the area. I don’t care how much of my taxpayer money it costs....find them. They need help. If 460,000 kids go missing and 99.9% turn up OK...great! These girls however were not OK. The situation presented to LE that night indicated that they were not OK. No one dreamed they had been murdered, but everyone knew they were not OK.
It is not LE’s fault that these children are dead, but it was, in my opinion, the first of many mistakes they’ve made in this case.
Just my thoughts.

 

[heartgoesout]

Does anyone have the link where "the twist" was said?

 

[somequestions]

libby is and aways will be a hero. That does not mean that different things may have been found out.

In my opinion, Libby is not just a hero. She is the reason this is not a cold case. Abby and Libby worked together and stayed together to get the audio/video that LE has in this case. In my opinion, without it, I do not think we would ever know who murdered both of them. You can have evidence, but you still need someone to connect it to. The LE sketches in this case proved to me that there are many people who think they have seen this person on the bridge.

Will the phone video end up solving their own murders? Time will tell.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Does anyone have the link where "the twist" was said?

If you are asking about when it was first said, it was prior to Mar 8, 2017 because we were discussing it then.
I have a cut/paste of what he said; I believe one of our members transcribed it. I looked through the media links but didn't see it. I kept a Youtube link to the interview but it's dead.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Does anyone have the link where "the twist" was said?

DELPHI DOUBLE MURDER UPDATE INTERVIEW WITH SHERIFF TOBE LEAZENBY - 9tube.tv

At 9 mins in...

...." it's got a whole new, it's got a whole twist to it that, even I, as a 30 year veteran, have never seen."

 

[Falling Down]

I mentioned a similar thought many moons ago, all the attacking about rough terrain, dark, cold etc made me wonder why so defensive?
Maybe being from a mountain resort state clouded my judgement of searching capabilities and terrain limitations in what appears basically farmland and creek area and lack of search and rescue teams, idk

That's what a lot of it boils down to for me regarding the night search. We're talking about a relatively small area, in the grand scheme of things, but people want to make it out like this is a huge park-like area. There's no park, just trails, a nature reserve totaling maybe 6 acres or so, and private lands with trails on them.

It's a small-ish gorge with wooded areas more easily passable during Winter.

 

[FrostedGlass]

DELPHI DOUBLE MURDER UPDATE INTERVIEW WITH SHERIFF TOBE LEAZENBY - 9tube.tv

At 9 mins in...

...." it's got a whole new, it's got a whole twist to it that, even I, as a 30 year veteran, have never seen."

That's the one. I'd like to give credit to our member who transcribed this but I didn't make a note:
SL: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Uhhmm that was the same obvious concept or thought process we had as well because um, you know, as I've (stumbles on words and says Excuse me) shared with other outlets, that we've had our share of, even double homicides, but they were elderly folks back in the 90s and it turned out to be, um, unfortunately, grandchildren involved in their deaths, and uh, so yeah, we were able to catch those pretty quick, but uh, umm, this one's just, it's, it's got a whole new, it's got a whole twist to it that, even I, as a 30 year veteran, have never seen.

 

[Falling Down]

Even with a carefully crafted response, the answers are confusing. For example:

Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.

(bbm) What in the world does that mean?

From: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

I happen to agree, upon initial inspection, so to speak, there may have been no obvious signs a double homicide had happened.

 

[Falling Down]

If LE thought for a while that the girls died from exposure, that's the only thing that makes sense about the decision to cancel the search dog team.

What was done to the scene that made LE request pics from the area before the murders?

Who does crime scene investigations for Delphi?

I'll say it again, the area is so small that the chance that anyone thought they may have died from exposure was most likely not on their minds. People would have searched within mere feet of where the girls were found.

 

[Falling Down]

I’m certain he did indeed expect they’d be found alive, as did the families. Even now we still grapple with the fact how nobody heard screams, how nobody witnessed anything suspicious enough at the time for LE to suspect foul play was involved in the girls’ disappearance.

At worst, after the Snapchat photo surfaced, it may’ve been feared they fell off the bridge into the creek. But without the use of ropes and pullies to engage in a very dangerous nighttime operation to search the creek banks, I can’t imagine a small county would’ve had the expertise to undertake such a operation considering the treacherous steep banks.

For every unsolved case here on WS, it we wanted to critique with the benefit of hindsight, we’d find at least one action had LE done differently, the crime might’ve been solved by now. In this Delphi case, even if the bodies had been found a few minutes after midnight, I don’t think it would’ve made any difference to the outcome other than the crime scene could’ve been processed maybe about four hours earlier in daylight but the girls still wouldn’t have been located safe and alive. JMO

Good post and I agree about the timing of finding the deceased. It doesn't matter, they'd been deceased since before 3 PM. It wasn't a criminal investigation until the bodies were found.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'll say it again, the area is so small that the chance that anyone thought they may have died from exposure was most likely not on their minds. People would have searched within mere feet of where the girls were found.

There are some holes in that theory; like the lack of clothing (maybe), the lost shoe and the bruises on her wrists. It's hard for me to imagine the convo he had with the dog team, though. Seems like they would have still offered to come if they knew the girls had been murdered.

 

[Falling Down]

There are some holes in that theory; like the lack of clothing (maybe), the lost shoe and the bruises on her wrists. It's hard for me to imagine the convo he had with the dog team, though. Seems like they would have still offered to come if they knew the girls had been murdered.

How would anyone know what killed them if it wasn't obvious, pre-autopsy?

I've yet to see anything definitive about what the CS looked like.

 

[Falling Down]

I think I’ll have to side with @Nancy1954 on this one.
You acknowledge that LE would have concluded quickly that these girls were not runaways and maybe they had just “made other plans”. Certainly by midnight that should have been clearly not the answer...movies were out, friends had been called, they didn’t call to say “ oh, we forgot you were picking us up 8 hours ago”. So now it’s OK for LE to just shrug, head home and come back tomorrow to look for the bodies?
Each missing child presents a unique situation. The heck with statistics. These two young girls were missing, they were not dressed for the weather overnight, there was no indication they had left the area. I don’t care how much of my taxpayer money it costs....find them. They need help. If 460,000 kids go missing and 99.9% turn up OK...great! These girls however were not OK. The situation presented to LE that night indicated that they were not OK. No one dreamed they had been murdered, but everyone knew they were not OK.
It is not LE’s fault that these children are dead, but it was, in my opinion, the first of many mistakes they’ve made in this case.
Just my thoughts.

All they had were two SC images passed around to the searchers hours after the search started.

All they knew about the girls' last movements was they got to the bridge.

After that, ???

 

[Charlot123]

I disagree.

With that kind of thinking, that would increase by at least twenty-fold the number of (eventually determined to be un-necessary) searches. 99.9% of missing teens like this are either runaways (which LE would have quickly ruled out in this case) or they may have assumed the girls made different plans/walked back/got another ride)...or it was a body recovery operation not a search for the living. Why further endanger the searchers late at night when they could regroup in the morning when they had light to resume? How are you going to search a creek at night with a bunch of volunteers?

There are 460,000 kids that are reported missing each year. 460,000! There is a good reason why paid professionals make rules for when and how to do searches. 50% of missing teens are found within 3 hours. Who would have thought that one of the world's most bizarre and sinister double murder cases would have taken place on two teenage girls there on that trail in a little town in Indiana?

In my opinion, I think they had to exercise the best judgement they could given what they had at the time. It's easy to second guess when you are on the sidelines and not the decision maker.

Here is what I believe LE knew at the time:
1) The girls did not answer to when yelled out to by dozens of people searching that area that night. Imagine how far some of their voices would have carried...all the way up the creek and all the way down. No answer. Crickets chirping. No cell phone pick up. Two people.. if one was hurt, the other would have answered.

2) Given that, you could almost presume they had either (a) left the area on their own or (b) they were already deceased (drowning, fall from bridge, etc. in which case a search for finding them alive or at all in the dark was not the case).

This is just my (informed) opinion though...

I am in a totally different area of knowledge, but I agree.

Truth is, we can’t predict human behavior, nor circumstances. You are afraid for one kid because of his/her behavior, and something bad happens to another one…how often have we seen it?

The days the girls were killed, another kid in Indiana disappeared, and they announced Amber Alert for her - probably, her previous behavior or circumstances indicated there was a reason to.

With A@L, going by normal algorithm, two normal, athletic girls, friends, one obviously very strong, walking in an area super close to home. And maybe, the police thought, the girls did run away - they were teenagers, right? And there were two of them. So, two girls being attacked by a killer and dying, and then some ugly PM staging, 5 minutes away from their homes, who would have thought of it? Falling, trauma, cold, elements, yes. Some weirdo in the forest? Probably, no.

I don’t think anyone could blame either DG, or the relatives, or the searchers, or the police at that time. And we don’t know, maybe the police did an excellent job, they seemingly tried. It is another thing that LEO are not succinct, verbose and there are communication issues. (Like, “twist” meaning that instead of two alive girls, they found two bodies? Give me a break, it is not a twist, it is horror and nightmare).

 

[DeDee]

That's the one. I'd like to give credit to our member who transcribed this but I didn't make a note:
SL: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Uhhmm that was the same obvious concept or thought process we had as well because um, you know, as I've (stumbles on words and says Excuse me) shared with other outlets, that we've had our share of, even double homicides, but they were elderly folks back in the 90s and it turned out to be, um, unfortunately, grandchildren involved in their deaths, and uh, so yeah, we were able to catch those pretty quick, but uh, umm, this one's just, it's, it's got a whole new, it's got a whole twist to it that, even I, as a 30 year veteran, have never seen.

That does not sound as if TL is referring to finding the two girls dead from homicides after they were missing a day as being his "whole new twist". No way!

There's more to those remarks. He's shying away from divulging his true meaning behind them. The twist may be what makes this case so difficult for LEO to solve. The twist could be similar to Ive's signatures. Whatever it is, they can't seem to find the killer even though they feel as if he's local.

I've watched numerous videos of the terrain surrounding the Monon High Bridge and Deer Creek in order to know it is a treacherous area even if it is centered in a rather small area in scale. BG did not order them to go down a trail.

JMHOO

 

[Yemelyan]

That does not sound as if TL is referring to finding the two girls dead from homicides after they were missing a day as being his "whole new twist". No way!

There's more to those remarks. He's shying away from divulging his true meaning behind them. The twist may be what makes this case so difficult for LEO to solve. The twist could be similar to Ive's signatures. Whatever it is, they can't seem to find the killer even though they feel as if he's local.

I've watched numerous videos of the terrain surrounding the Monon High Bridge and Deer Creek in order to know it is a treacherous area even if it is centered in a rather small area in scale. BG did not order them to go down a trail.

JMHOO

There's a second reference to a "twist" by the same speaker. This information was given in Episode 2 of the podcast Scene of the Crime. Scene of the Crime: Delphi - Delphi: Missing on Stitcher TL was describing his feelings upon the exact moment of getting the call that the girls were found and were dead. He explains that "the twist" was that he had to go into investigative mode:

TL: Chief SM and I and the Delphi mayor and the fire chief were in the back part of the fire department and I remember, I believe Chief Mullin got a call that they located them. And they’re no longer with us....Being that close to a stream that can be unpredictable sometimes, not having those initial answers, we are thinking did they drown? Where specifically were they found? All those questions had not been answered at that point. Being in law enforcement, we had to have that thought run through our minds, was their criminal activity afoot here? It wasn’t long after that initial call, within the hour, it put a whole different twist on the whole scenario at that stage. That first hour, it set in...for me it was disbelief. But eventually not long after that, that our instincts and training kicked in and we went into investigative mode.

I think he's saying that criminal activity put a whole different twist on the scenario within the hour of him finding out that they were dead.

I would suggest - again, I don't know these people or what is in their minds - that when he compares this double homicide to the ones that occurred in the 90s (of elderly folks, where grandsons were responsible), he's saying that the twist was finding out that they were going to have to investigate homicides where the perpetrator is unknown and has no direct motive to kill the victims. It sounded like robbery was perhaps involved with the other homicides of grandparents and that the crime scenes in those cases would be examples of what DA Ives called "'a person was killed here' crime scene" where it was immediately obvious exactly what happened and exactly who the perpetrator was.

IMO he finds all of these related factors - the fact that they were dead instead of lost, the fact that they were murdered through criminal activity, the fact that it was unclear who would have a reason to do this - to be a "twist" away from the usual stuff he deals with every day.

Just explaining how I came to my conclusion, obviously none of us really know what another is thinking and I understand others will get more dramatic conclusions out of it.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

All they had were two SC images passed around to the searchers hours after the search started.

All they knew about the girls' last movements was they got to the bridge.

After that, ???

I’m a little confused as to what you’re getting at here. Are you saying the girls were not worth looking for because there wasn’t much information? I think the fact they were not where they were supposed to be for DG to pick them up was a good enough reason. If I’m misreading your response, my apologies.
That being said, my point was if it was my child missing under identical circumstances, I would not want LE coming up and telling me they were headed home for the night and citing a bunch of statistics as back up for leaving. I think they made a bad decision. Did it matter in the long run? No, unfortunately.