Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[Megnut]

I agree with this possibility.

One thing that has always bothered me is the creek crossing. Why do that? If the assumed location below the cemetery is where the bodies were found, that means BG walked them (and himself) through cold running water, up an embankment, and all to gain a couple hundred feet. Did that extra distance honestly isolate them from view that much better than if he killed them just below the house on the hill south of the creek? One of the photos from skibaboo's map was taken from the assumed crime scene looking toward the bridge. You can see the bridge, which means from the bridge, you can see the assumed crime scene (albeit from quite a distance). And I've also read that the assumed crime scene can be seen from the house on the hill. So was crossing the creek really worth it? Jmo.

In reality, BG might very well have done this at that location regardless of there being better, more isolating choices. And this is barring the girls didn't run across in an attempt to flee.

But, my thought is that maybe to make the creek crossing logical, BG had more to gain than a couple hundred feet, like maybe closer to a quarter mile distance. Jmo...

Crossing the creek does seem strange, but as you say, one of the girls may have tried to flee.

The perpetrator had a plan that day. What we don't know is how closely he stuck to that plan. If one of the girls attempted to flee, for example, he may have been forced to improvise.

IMO it's possible his plan was abduction. He may well have intended to march both girls into a waiting car, toward what horrors we can only imagine, but things went sideways, resulting in murders ahead of plan.

If abduction was the plan, had he been successful, I wonder where we'd be now. It might've appeared that the girls simply evaporated. Without L's phone, there might've been no video to recover. Where might he have taken them? What terror was in store? A prepared lair? A basement?

I think the girls may have fought back, preventing him from realizing his fantasy.

Heroes both. I think their actions will provide the clues which will ultimately convict the person responsible.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

BG watching Doug Carter at April 2019 press conference. Just my thoughts.

 

[TheVisual]

What you write is very important to consider. I think how Carter has presented himself leaves some people believing his sole focus is that of an investigator who’s actively involved in working this case. But as superintendent of ISP it seems to me his objective is to inspire confidence in the ISP and their police work.

I recall many who were convinced there was going to be an arrest within two weeks because the media was asked to give the family some space. So much for reading into words….

So really he probably doesn't know anymore than we know and is just a talking head being told what to say by those behind the scene. JMO

 

[AC4RD]

(kensnipped for brevity)
One thing that has always bothered me is the creek crossing. Why do that? If the assumed location below the cemetery is where the bodies were found, that means BG walked them (and himself) through cold running water, up an embankment, and all to gain a couple hundred feet. Did that extra distance honestly isolate them from view that much better than if he killed them just below the house on the hill south of the creek? One of the photos from skibaboo's map was taken from the assumed crime scene looking toward the bridge.

A possible answer: In one of GH's YT videos, in an overview of the area, GH points out a "bluffs" area on the east side of Deer Creek, the opposite side from where the girls were found. It's a little farther upstream from the crossing place. I'm sorry I don't have the GH link but I've taken a screenshot of the location:

https://kuzenski.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/bluffslocation1.jpg

The idea GH presented on that podcast was that the killer may have been planning to direct the girls to that area below the bluffs, which is very secluded and not easily seen from almost anywhere. The theory (which sounds reasonable to me, MHO) is that the killer was marching the girls to that location and one or both broke away and ran. I don't remember now if GH is the author of the idea of if it was one of his correspondents.

Crossing the creek, as I understood the idea, was never planned by the killer. The girls ran, and crossed the creek, attempting to get away. Libby presumably lost a shoe on the way to the creek crossing point. BG followed and caught the girls on the other side of the creek, in or near that slight depression in the ground where they were found. :-(

 

[TwoLea]

So really he probably doesn't know anymore than we know and is just a talking head being told what to say by those behind the scene. JMO

And bungling it. He made more than one erroneous statement at the same event and had to correct himself in the following days.

 

[TL4S]

A possible answer: In one of GH's YT videos, in an overview of the area, GH points out a "bluffs" area on the east side of Deer Creek, the opposite side from where the girls were found. It's a little farther upstream from the crossing place. I'm sorry I don't have the GH link but I've taken a screenshot of the location:

https://kuzenski.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/bluffslocation1.jpg

The idea GH presented on that podcast was that the killer may have been planning to direct the girls to that area below the bluffs, which is very secluded and not easily seen from almost anywhere. The theory (which sounds reasonable to me, MHO) is that the killer was marching the girls to that location and one or both broke away and ran. I don't remember now if GH is the author of the idea of if it was one of his correspondents.

Crossing the creek, as I understood the idea, was never planned by the killer. The girls ran, and crossed the creek, attempting to get away. Libby presumably lost a shoe on the way to the creek crossing point. BG followed and caught the girls on the other side of the creek, in or near that slight depression in the ground where they were found. :-(

Yes, that's the bluff I was talking about and I could definitely get on board with the idea of one or both running across the creek rather than BG directing them to that particular spot. And of course we're all thinking about this from the perspective of general logic, not the mind of somebody prepared to murder two young girls. I don't even want to understand that mindset...

I just can't ever forget JH saying all the reenactments were wrong, and how it shows the true facts aren't known to the public, that we watch the news and think we're picking up on something that isn't accurate. I don't think JH messes around and so I believe him.

 

[MistyWaters]

So really he probably doesn't know anymore than we know and is just a talking head being told what to say by those behind the scene. JMO

It seems to me his primary objective was to erase the focus from a sketch that had been promoted as “this is our suspect” for almost two years by introducing an entirely different sketch, plus adding a one word audio, while retaining the complete confidence of the public in that LE were competently moving forward in the investigation. By tossing in a few other cleverly blatant remarks making it appear he knew exactly who was the perpetrator, I’d say overall he was very successful. But almost two years have since passed, unfortunately no arrest. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

And bungling it. He made more than one erroneous statement at the same event and had to correct himself in the following days.

I do think he’s briefed from time to time but the people of Indiana ought to be very concerned if the superintendent of Indiana State Police is as directly involved in just one unsolved murder case as it might appear.

Organization -
The Indiana State Police is currently led by Superintendent Douglas G. Carter, whose position is appointed by the governor. His command staff includes an assistant superintendent who holds the rank of colonel and four deputy superintendents, each holding the rank of lieutenant colonel who manage four primary areas of responsibility:[2]

• Financial Management includes the Fiscal Division and Logistics Division.
• Support Services includes the Criminal Justice Data Division, Laboratory Division, Records Division and Public Information Office.
• Investigations includes the Office of Professional Standards, Training Division and Criminal Investigation Division.
• Enforcement includes the Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Division, Human Resources Division and Operations Support Division.
  • Enforcement operations throughout the state are the responsibility of a north zone and a south zone commander, which is further composed of five separate areas, each commanded by a captain. These areas are divided into 14 districts, covering from four to 11 counties each and are commanded by a lieutenant.

Indiana State Police - Wikipedia

 

[Ekliptika]

Crossing the creek does seem strange, but as you say, one of the girls may have tried to flee.

The perpetrator had a plan that day. What we don't know is how closely he stuck to that plan. If one of the girls attempted to flee, for example, he may have been forced to improvise.

IMO it's possible his plan was abduction. He may well have intended to march both girls into a waiting car, toward what horrors we can only imagine, but things went sideways, resulting in murders ahead of plan.

If abduction was the plan, had he been successful, I wonder where we'd be now. It might've appeared that the girls simply evaporated. Without L's phone, there might've been no video to recover. Where might he have taken them? What terror was in store? A prepared lair? A basement?

I think the girls may have fought back, preventing him from realizing his fantasy.

Heroes both. I think their actions will provide the clues which will ultimately convict the person responsible.

JMO

When I first learned about this case and tried to gain oversight of the area and lay of the land using Google Maps, this was exactly what came to my mind as of what the perps original plan was. I think the position of the secluded bridge end with nowhere to go and the dirt road conveniently placed right underneath, it looked like the perfect spot for someone planning to abduct a victim. All he had to do was to park a car somewhere, cross the bridge to the main trail side and wait for someone to cross that bridge, make sure there where no one else on the trail heading for the bridge and then follow his victim across the bridge and he had someone trapped that he could either lure, manipulate or intimidate to go Down the hill to his waiting car. However, these 2 girls made a run for it, and for some reason that I still think is not logical, he decided to chase them and kill them rather than just flee the scene in his car. Maybe he was afraid that the girls would be able to recognize him or the car, maybe he got angry or maybe he panicked. Crossing that creek did not and still does not make any sense to me, unless it was not planned.
As I learned more about the case, I realized that my first assumption might not be right, that maybe this was more complicated. Maybe crossing the creek was planned and maybe the spot where they were killed was chosen. I think that if we knew more about the details from the crime scene, we would be able to have a more accurate assumption of what happened that day, but for now LE of course cannot make that public information for obvious reasons.
We Will have to wait until the day comes, when the families can finally say that today was the day. I hope that 2022 is the year.
Disclaimer: all above is just my opinion and speculation.

 

[Yemelyan]

So really he probably doesn't know anymore than we know and is just a talking head being told what to say by those behind the scene. JMO

Right. I'm sure he's been briefed on the case and kept up to date on the investigation's progress, but is he out there interviewing suspects, analyzing crime scene evidence for leads, and developing theories of the crime? No, IMO. Is he trying to get the investigators the resources they ask for and inspire confidence in the investigation among the families of the victims and the public (as @MistyWaters wrote)? Yes.

I do think parts of that 2019 press conference were scripted for him with input from the FBI but he apparently inserted some of his own thoughts and feelings as well. MOO

I also think, just my personal opinion, that even people like Leazenby do not have as much insight into the inner workings of the investigation as we might think. Last year in the HLN special when he talked about there not being any other usable audio on the video from the man he qualified his statements with the phrase "from what I know."

 

[StarryStarryNight]

BG watching a YouTube video on where he bought the baby goat he was carrying in his jacket.

 

[Snow_In _June]

Abby had a sleep over at Libby’s home on the evening of Sunday 12th February 2017. Neither one of them had to go to school on Monday 13th February 2017 as this was an official day off school for all pupils called a Snow Day.

When they woke up on Monday morning they had breakfast, spent some time doing some administrative tasks for Libby’s Grandma.

At some point in time during the morning Libby & Abby got bored of admin and decided they wanted to go to Monon HIgh Bridge to take photographs.

Although it was February, Monday 13th Feb has been described as unseasonably warm.

In Any Case

They persuaded Libby’s older sister “ Kelsie”to drop them off on her way to her then boyfriend's house.

Libby was given instructions by her Grandma she could go as long as she and Abby had a lift home from the trails.

Libby must have called her Dad at some point because he did stop to pick the girls up on a return from an errand.

He called Libby’s phone a few minutes out from parking, 15:11 hrs

He called again when he parked. 15:14

There was no answer from Libby’s mobile phone.

He got out of his car and went to look for Libby & Abby along the trails.


He is reported as passing a senior gentleman and asking if he had seen two girls? The senior gentleman apparently said no but there were a couple under the bridge.

If this is true now I understand why Libby’s Dad took the 501 and not the 505 he was quite simply going to look for his Daughter and Her friend below the bridge based on the information he was given by the senior gentleman instead of over the bridge.

I can’t imagine how this Father feels he was so close yet so far.

As far as the girls, they made their way from the drop off point. To the Bridge! two pictures were uploaded to snap chat at 2:07. It does not mean to say the photos were taken at 2:07 one shows a photo of Abby crossing the bridge from the North West. The other shows a photo in the direction of travel towards the South East end of the bridge.

At the time the photos were taken there was no visible person behind them. North West and no one visible person in front of them South East So how did Mr B***** Guy suddenly appear on the Bridge from nowhere.

I personally think we have already been shown how mysterious BG appeared from nowhere which is why Libby took the video.

She simply thought WTF where did he come from ? They couldn’t run as there was someone else blocking their exit.

I also think BG got it wrong and the target was actually the later two young women who were closely behind Libby & Abby on the trail​

Of course all in my own personal opinion
SIJ

Happy New & Peaceful Year to ALL *advertiser censored*

 

[MistyWaters]

Abby had a sleep over at Libby’s home on the evening of Sunday 12th February 2017. Neither one of them had to go to school on Monday 13th February 2017 as this was an official day off school for all pupils called a Snow Day.

When they woke up on Monday morning they had breakfast, spent some time doing some administrative tasks for Libby’s Grandma.

At some point in time during the morning Libby & Abby got bored of admin and decided they wanted to go to Monon HIgh Bridge to take photographs.

Although it was February, Monday 13th Feb has been described as unseasonably warm.

In Any Case

They persuaded Libby’s older sister “ Kelsie”to drop them off on her way to her then boyfriend's house.

Libby was given instructions by her Grandma she could go as long as she and Abby had a lift home from the trails.

Libby must have called her Dad at some point because he did stop to pick the girls up on a return from an errand.

He called Libby’s phone a few minutes out from parking, 15:11 hrs

He called again when he parked. 15:14

There was no answer from Libby’s mobile phone.

He got out of his car and went to look for Libby & Abby along the trails.


He is reported as passing a senior gentleman and asking if he had seen two girls? The senior gentleman apparently said no but there were a couple under the bridge.

If this is true now I understand why Libby’s Dad took the 501 and not the 505 he was quite simply going to look for his Daughter and Her friend below the bridge based on the information he was given by the senior gentleman instead of over the bridge.

I can’t imagine how this Father feels he was so close yet so far.

As far as the girls, they made their way from the drop off point. To the Bridge! two pictures were uploaded to snap chat at 2:07. It does not mean to say the photos were taken at 2:07 one shows a photo of Abby crossing the bridge from the North West. The other shows a photo in the direction of travel towards the South East end of the bridge.

At the time the photos were taken there was no visible person behind them. North West and no one visible person in front of them South East So how did Mr B***** Guy suddenly appear on the Bridge from nowhere.

I personally think we have already been shown how mysterious BG appeared from nowhere which is why Libby took the video.

She simply thought WTF where did he come from ? They couldn’t run as there was someone else blocking their exit.

I also think BG got it wrong and the target was actually the later two young women who were closely behind Libby & Abby on the trail​

Of course all in my own personal opinion
SIJ

Happy New & Peaceful Year to ALL *advertiser censored*

Just a couple questions, following your thorough summary -

How have we already been shown how the mysterious BG appeared from nowhere? If the SC photos were taken on or before 2:07pm and the video at 2:30 (FBI billboard) that allows plenty of time for him to begin walking along the bridge.

What is your source for “the later two young women who were closely behind Libby & Abby on the trail”?

 

[FromGermany1]

BG watching a YouTube video on where he bought the baby goat he was carrying in his jacket.

View attachment 328296

My theory: he is a serial k and does it for exitement and mental detox AND for the Media uprising. With each deed he has years to come with SM talk/crime forums and YT videos incl. comments as well as TV reports. He gets his mind stimulated for yeaeaears, although his (evil) actions only take some hours/days of planning and apparently only 1-2 hours to be "active" in an area, he loves and prefers: woods/trails/creeks/bridges/lakes. He is his own entertainer so-to-say. MOO
Certainly he has a nice gamer armchair to sit in .......

 

[Snow_In _June]

its simple

If Abby was photograped by Libby and there was nothing behind Abby and Libby photograpged the South East side of the bridge and there was nothing in front. BG appeared from fgriggin nowhere. The only way he can appear from nowhere without being seen is up and through the trusses and a gap big enough. I am almost sure we have all seen the video in a previous time of a person doing this.

 

[LeBlack]

Delphi murders: Why 'The Shack' film was mentioned in reference to killings
excerpt
"Law-enforcement officials tell Mack's family that Missy, the 6-year-old daughter, is the victim of a serial killer after blood and clothing items are found in an abandoned cabin."

 

[carbuff]

I too think the girls ran across the creek trying to escape.

It's pretty plausible that he was trying to get them into a car to take them elsewhere. If that happened, they might have been found miles away, if at all.

 

[TL4S]

LE says the crime scene begins at the trail head, but we say, no, it begins on the bridge, under the bridge, across the bridge...

LE says the body location is 1/2 mile from the bridge ( or 1/4 mile walk from video location, 3/4 miles from where the girls were dropped off, and 1 mile from Freedom Bridge), but we say, no, it's only 1/8 mile or less...

LE says, through two sketches, that the suspect has reddish-brown hair, but we say, no, it's this guy with black hair, or this guy with no hair...

LE says the girls died where they were found, but we say, no, they were carried there, moved there, staged there...

LE says "The Shack" was not a hidden message, but we say, no, it was...

LE says the killer gained control through "intimidation and manipulation," but we say, no, he lured them, he tricked them...

LE says "_________" (fill in the blank), but we say, no, because GH, AG, HLN reporters, RL, or some youtuber says "________" (fill in the blank).

This is so discouraging to me.

 

[DeDee]

I guess my feelings about what might have happened haven't changed a whole lot since early on. DC stating that the crime scene begins at the trail head, imo, indicates that BG might have seen, spoken to, or started following the girls pretty much right from the beginning. Him engaging them at the end of the bridge like he did...L's video just feels like he's bearing down on them, you know? And I think the girls felt that, too.

My interpretation of some of the things the family have said about the audio, plus the immediate "guys...down the hill" upon reaching them, is that he had engaged with them somewhere earlier on the trail. That is purely speculation, though.

As for the distance and body location, that is something based solely on comments made by LE, media and neighbors. If the distances weren't consistently farther than what the assumed location is, I would chalk it up to vagueness and let it go. After all, there are very reasonable arguments for the spot being below the cemetery. But the distances, even given in various terms of starting points, ARE consistently farther. IDK.

And I understand a lot of people think it really doesn't matter in the scheme of things, either, but I beg to differ. Walking them twice the distance, and what that means in terms of isolating and controlling them, time spent with them, finding them after-the-fact, exiting the cs, and whatever else changes with every added step. JMO.

Reading these and a few other recent comments about the CS reminds me of RL saying about the area:
"It's pristine."

If the location is on RLs land just over from the cemetery as I've always assumed due to CS tape placement, I've often wondered how they climbed up the steep embankment.

How would LEO know as a fact that the girls encountered BG anywhere else on the trail except while on the MHB? Initially, I thought that the "Guys" was when BG was talking to others with him but that may be because I'm a Southerner who would never see two young girls and call them "Guys."

Here's to hoping that 2022 contains: Today is the Day!
.

 

[MistyWaters]

its simple

If Abby was photograped by Libby and there was nothing behind Abby and Libby photograpged the South East side of the bridge and there was nothing in front. BG appeared from fgriggin nowhere. The only way he can appear from nowhere without being seen is up and through the trusses and a gap big enough. I am almost sure we have all seen the video in a previous time of a person doing this.

But why do you think BG appeared instantly after the SC photos were taken? The time gap could’ve been 20 minutes or more. Maybe he was standing off to the side of the trails watching them take photos on the bridge for several minutes before he approached?