Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[LeBlack]

bbm
Thank you for your ideas!

I may add:
..... or when the person, who is speaking, doesn't resemble sketch #1 (OBG) and the video figure.

Announcements over microphone/loudspeakers, as you said.
Further I may add: Think of 2016/2017 - NOT now. Because of reasons, the voice may have changed a lot. Could be less rough.

Mustache vs no mustache or dental work can change speech

 

[LeBlack]

IMO I would agree it's not funding and it's not LE's lack of awareness of genetic genealogy that's holding them back. This is 2022 and Indiana already has at least one cold case solved through genetic genealogy (murder of April Tinsley).

So let's just look at the April Tinsley case where Indiana was able to solve successfully using genetic genealogy techniques (performed by Parabon, in that case): for April Tinsley, LE had an apparently full DNA profile and they had multiple samples matched to the same perpetrator (in the victim's underwear and also in used condoms left at other crime scenes). So they had no doubt that the sample they had was tied to the sexual assault of their victim. They weren't looking at possible innocuous DNA transfer like skin cells left on a shirt, for example; their sample was male biological fluid left on the victim's underwear that only could have gotten there one way, and they knew they were dealing with a serial sexual offender. To sum up: in April's case LE had a full DNA profile for comparison, multiple samples, and male biological fluid that can only get there through sexual contact.

My guess is that Delphi doesn't have these same testing conditions. They either have a partial profile (it's not very scientifically sound to try to do partial familial matching to an already partial DNA profile), or they don't have corroboration that the unmatched DNA sample they have was definitely left by the offender. These are both going to be major barriers to using either genetic genealogy (what Parabon does) or familial DNA searches of state and local crime databases (the latter methodology I believe is restricted by the state of Indiana anyway).

IMO there is something tying LE's hands here and it's not "they haven't heard of genetic genealogy yet."

When you have an area that families have been in the area for generations, everyone in town shows up to the family reunion.
They may have too many candidates, especially if they have only a partial profile.

 

[HistoryNut]

When you have an area that families have been in the area for generations, everyone in town shows up to the family reunion.
They may have too many candidates, especially if they have only a partial profile.

So true, and I believe standard DNA goes back 6 or more generations. Just imagine that rabbit hole. MOO

 

[AC4RD]

I may be misunderstanding this. First, if you've been convicted or arrested, depending on the state, in certain states, your DNA information goes to CODIS or whatever it is, and is available for LE reference, right?

But for the commercial DNA sequencing services, "Why hasn't LE found a DNA match for Bridge Guy yet in the commercial DNA services' data?" may be that they can't even look without a valid search warrant or other court order, right? (See pasted material below.)

In the medical system from which I retired recently, collecting genetic information from patients required very specific informed consent for every use that might be made of it, with the consent process strictly overseen by an independent ethics board operating under federal guidelines.

I don't know how the commercial services work, but from the '23andme" website (the only commercial service I checked), if I understand it, Officer Krupke can't just roll up and ask to take a peek at your data, again, pasted material below. So Tobe can't just compare that crime scene DNA with the commercial service data, he's got a process, isn't this correct?
--------------------

Guide for Law Enforcement - 23andMe

" Requests for 23andMe User Information

23andMe chooses to use all practical legal and administrative resources to resist requests from law enforcement, and we do not share customer data with any public databases, or with entities that may increase the risk of law enforcement access. In certain circumstances, however, 23andMe may be required by law to comply with a valid court order, subpoena, or search warrant for genetic or personal information.

23andMe requires valid legal process in order to consider producing information about our users. 23andMe will only review inquiries as defined in 18 USC § 2703(c)(2) related to to a valid trial, grand jury or administrative subpoena, warrant, or order. Administrative subpoenas must be served on 23andMe by personal service just like subpoenas in a court setting. 23andMe will consider releasing additional account information or transactional information pertaining to an account only in response to a court order issued pursuant to 18 USC § 2703(d). In addition, 23andMe will only consider inquiries from a government agency with proper jurisdiction.

To date, 23andMe has never received a request to preserve information potentially relevant to legal proceedings pursuant to 18 USC § 2703(f). If we do receive a valid preservation request, we will preserve a temporary snapshot of the relevant records for 90 days, after which we will automatically remove the information from our servers unless we receive a renewed valid preservation request for an additional 90-day period.

If a 23andMe user completes a valid authorization to disclose their Genetic Information to law enforcement, then 23andMe will disclose the information identified in the authorization. 23andMe will not disclose any identifying information about the authorizing user’s genetic relatives or connections that 23andMe holds unless those users also provide express, written consent. "

 

[Prime8]

Regarding DNA and databases, I wonder how much good that will do here. Where I live, a large metropolitan area, I know of a lot of folks that done it just to see what their background is. What country, what race(s) or ethnic group. BUT when I go back to where I grew up, a MUCH smaller community, I haven't run across any. In fact, a couple of folks there believe I'm out of my mind to voluntarily give up my DNA. From what little time I've had in IN they are very much like where I grew up. Not to say there isn't any, just probably fewer of them from central IN than from places like CA, NY or VA.

I can't remember where, it may have been on The Murder Squad, but I know I've heard someone speaking on the topic of the limited populations that are in open genealogy databases. These databases are definitely not representative of the general population.

 

[Prime8]

Thanks for that article. That was on my mind when I wrote my post but I couldn't find an article. What I remembered was ISP Sgt Kim Riley addressing the same matter when answering a question from the media but I still cannot find that. So here we have an article from three and a half years where LE apparently still hasn't pursued familial searches. One excuse given in the article is limited resources. But in a case where there was over a 100 LE personnel involved in the early few months and now there is a building being leased to house the investigation that statement doesn't sound right. (Of course, that could be the reporter's misinterpretation, too.) I agree that LE probably wanted to do something with the DNA testing. But I wonder if LE may have discovered when submitting what they had that it wasn't adequate for such testing. Hence the submission at the end of 2018. That late 2018 submission may have been a "Hail Mary" attempt to find something better than what the earlier lab results produced?

We have a case here in VA, the Childs/Metzler murders, in August 2009. Just a few years later, the sheriff proclaimed they have the killer's DNA. Not just DNA, but he stated definitively that LE not only has DNA, but it is the killer's. And yet here we are over 10 years later and no progress there either on the DNA and many of us are starting to have doubts about that DNA.

I don't buy the excuses that the ISP lab can't do it (what about the FBI or private labs), lack of resources or LE just hasn't gotten around to it. The sad reality might be that LE just doesn't have what they need to do this DNA search. I'm truly starting to believe LE needs that 'one tip', because DNA may not be a significant factor in this investigation.

Paul Holes has publicly stated a few times that DNA will not solve this case. He has spoken to investigators in the case and is aware of what they have. It doesn't mean that a DNA match won't help build the case, just won't solve it.

 

[AC4RD]

Thank you, I wasn’t sure. But haven’t some criminals been caught because of the connection to their loved one who did that?

Another good example is Arliss Perry, a newlywed murdered in a church one night. A book claimed that her killing was carried out by an organization of Satanists; ten (or whatever) years later, DNA proved that the campus security guard who reported finding her body nude in the church is the person who killed her.

 

[AC4RD]

... I've heard someone speaking on the topic of the limited populations that are in open genealogy databases. These databases are definitely not representative of the general population.

Good point--no self-selected group *can* be genuinely random. "Unwise" said nearly 50% of people he knew (i think that was the number) had sent personal samples to one company or another; I said that none of my direct family, my wife's direct family, or any close friends, had sent samples. And another user (forgot who) said one niece was the sole member he was aware of from his own family. There are certainly some systemic factors there, demographics, personality, belief systems, religion--I can't even guess what factors play into it. Interesting question, isn't it?

 

[Yemelyan]

I may be misunderstanding this. First, if you've been convicted or arrested, depending on the state, in certain states, your DNA information goes to CODIS or whatever it is, and is available for LE reference, right?

But for the commercial DNA sequencing services, "Why hasn't LE found a DNA match for Bridge Guy yet in the commercial DNA services' data?" may be that they can't even look without a valid search warrant or other court order, right? (See pasted material below.)

In the medical system from which I retired recently, collecting genetic information from patients required very specific informed consent for every use that might be made of it, with the consent process strictly overseen by an independent ethics board operating under federal guidelines.

I don't know how the commercial services work, but from the '23andme" website (the only commercial service I checked), if I understand it, Officer Krupke can't just roll up and ask to take a peek at your data, again, pasted material below. So Tobe can't just compare that crime scene DNA with the commercial service data, he's got a process, isn't this correct?
--------------------

Guide for Law Enforcement - 23andMe

" Requests for 23andMe User Information

23andMe chooses to use all practical legal and administrative resources to resist requests from law enforcement, and we do not share customer data with any public databases, or with entities that may increase the risk of law enforcement access. In certain circumstances, however, 23andMe may be required by law to comply with a valid court order, subpoena, or search warrant for genetic or personal information.

23andMe requires valid legal process in order to consider producing information about our users. 23andMe will only review inquiries as defined in 18 USC § 2703(c)(2) related to to a valid trial, grand jury or administrative subpoena, warrant, or order. Administrative subpoenas must be served on 23andMe by personal service just like subpoenas in a court setting. 23andMe will consider releasing additional account information or transactional information pertaining to an account only in response to a court order issued pursuant to 18 USC § 2703(d). In addition, 23andMe will only consider inquiries from a government agency with proper jurisdiction.

To date, 23andMe has never received a request to preserve information potentially relevant to legal proceedings pursuant to 18 USC § 2703(f). If we do receive a valid preservation request, we will preserve a temporary snapshot of the relevant records for 90 days, after which we will automatically remove the information from our servers unless we receive a renewed valid preservation request for an additional 90-day period.

If a 23andMe user completes a valid authorization to disclose their Genetic Information to law enforcement, then 23andMe will disclose the information identified in the authorization. 23andMe will not disclose any identifying information about the authorizing user’s genetic relatives or connections that 23andMe holds unless those users also provide express, written consent. "

Yes - the FBI maintains a database (commonly called CODIS but it actually contains 3 levels...the national database, state level databases and local databases). DNA profiles here are available for LE to cross-check with samples from crime scenes. CODIS is built on information encoded in a type of highly heritable DNA called short tandem repeats (STRs). The national database maintained by the FBI will give LE information on partial matches but there is actually a small but significant technical difference between partial matches and specific familial search matching, so the national database is not available for familial DNA searches. There are about 14 states that currently use their state and local criminal databases for familial searches, however. Indiana isn't one of the ones that explicitly permit it. CODIS and NDIS Fact Sheet | Federal Bureau of Investigation

The commercial ancestry companies (23andme, etc) as well as genetic genealogy companies like Parabon, analyze a different type of inherited genetic information, called single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs). From these, they build family trees of related individuals. Ancestry companies will cooperate with LE with a warrant, but most of the time LE is actually using an open DNA database called Gedmatch or they are working with a private vendor lab like Parabon (which has its own proprietary database that they say is representative) to build out these family trees.

 

[MollyDDD]

Yes - the FBI maintains a database (commonly called CODIS but it actually contains 3 levels...the national database, state level databases and local databases). DNA profiles here are available for LE to cross-check with samples from crime scenes. CODIS is built on information encoded in a type of highly heritable DNA called short tandem repeats (STRs). The national database maintained by the FBI will give LE information on partial matches but there is actually a small but significant technical difference between partial matches and specific familial search matching, so the national database is not available for familial DNA searches. There are about 14 states that currently use their state and local criminal databases for familial searches, however. Indiana isn't one of the ones that explicitly permit it. CODIS and NDIS Fact Sheet | Federal Bureau of Investigation

The commercial ancestry companies (23andme, etc) as well as genetic genealogy companies like Parabon, analyze a different type of inherited genetic information, called single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs). From these, they build family trees of related individuals. Ancestry companies will cooperate with LE with a warrant, but most of the time LE is actually using an open DNA database called Gedmatch or they are working with a private vendor lab like Parabon (which has its own proprietary database that they say is representative) to build out these family trees.

Thanks for sharing this info.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

With all of this talk of familial DNA it makes me wonder if the suspect pool that LE has is a family. And maybe perhaps a few more other non-family members, jic.

 

[Dontknow?]

Yes - the FBI maintains a database (commonly called CODIS but it actually contains 3 levels...the national database, state level databases and local databases). DNA profiles here are available for LE to cross-check with samples from crime scenes. CODIS is built on information encoded in a type of highly heritable DNA called short tandem repeats (STRs). The national database maintained by the FBI will give LE information on partial matches but there is actually a small but significant technical difference between partial matches and specific familial search matching, so the national database is not available for familial DNA searches. There are about 14 states that currently use their state and local criminal databases for familial searches, however. Indiana isn't one of the ones that explicitly permit it. CODIS and NDIS Fact Sheet | Federal Bureau of Investigation

The commercial ancestry companies (23andme, etc) as well as genetic genealogy companies like Parabon, analyze a different type of inherited genetic information, called single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs). From these, they build family trees of related individuals. Ancestry companies will cooperate with LE with a warrant, but most of the time LE is actually using an open DNA database called Gedmatch or they are working with a private vendor lab like Parabon (which has its own proprietary database that they say is representative) to build out these family trees.

A couple of years ago military branches admitted to not processing thousands of rape/sexual assault crimes and passing it onto the police/Codis etc...As well as DNA info. Has there been progress with this info?

 

[Yemelyan]

A couple of years ago military branches admitted to not processing thousands of rape/sexual assault crimes and passing it onto the police/Codis etc...As well as DNA info. Has there been progress with this info?

Federal civilian and military law enforcement do participate in the CODIS program, per Department of Defense directives. Active military members who were arrested, but not convicted, of crimes can petition to have their DNA profiles expunged from criminal databases.

Almost every state and jurisdiction, including military, still has a problem with rape kit analysis backlogs, IMO.

 

[FromGermany1]

Mustache vs no mustache or dental work can change speech

Also sometimes a changed way of life can do it, so BG's voice today would sound different than in Febr 2017 or the months after perhaps.

 

[jansplans]

I may be misunderstanding this. First, if you've been convicted or arrested, depending on the state, in certain states, your DNA information goes to CODIS or whatever it is, and is available for LE reference, right?

But for the commercial DNA sequencing services, "Why hasn't LE found a DNA match for Bridge Guy yet in the commercial DNA services' data?" may be that they can't even look without a valid search warrant or other court order, right? (See pasted material below.)

In the medical system from which I retired recently, collecting genetic information from patients required very specific informed consent for every use that might be made of it, with the consent process strictly overseen by an independent ethics board operating under federal guidelines.

I don't know how the commercial services work, but from the '23andme" website (the only commercial service I checked), if I understand it, Officer Krupke can't just roll up and ask to take a peek at your data, again, pasted material below. So Tobe can't just compare that crime scene DNA with the commercial service data, he's got a process, isn't this correct?
--------------------

Guide for Law Enforcement - 23andMe

" Requests for 23andMe User Information

23andMe chooses to use all practical legal and administrative resources to resist requests from law enforcement, and we do not share customer data with any public databases, or with entities that may increase the risk of law enforcement access. In certain circumstances, however, 23andMe may be required by law to comply with a valid court order, subpoena, or search warrant for genetic or personal information.

23andMe requires valid legal process in order to consider producing information about our users. 23andMe will only review inquiries as defined in 18 USC § 2703(c)(2) related to to a valid trial, grand jury or administrative subpoena, warrant, or order. Administrative subpoenas must be served on 23andMe by personal service just like subpoenas in a court setting. 23andMe will consider releasing additional account information or transactional information pertaining to an account only in response to a court order issued pursuant to 18 USC § 2703(d). In addition, 23andMe will only consider inquiries from a government agency with proper jurisdiction.

To date, 23andMe has never received a request to preserve information potentially relevant to legal proceedings pursuant to 18 USC § 2703(f). If we do receive a valid preservation request, we will preserve a temporary snapshot of the relevant records for 90 days, after which we will automatically remove the information from our servers unless we receive a renewed valid preservation request for an additional 90-day period.

If a 23andMe user completes a valid authorization to disclose their Genetic Information to law enforcement, then 23andMe will disclose the information identified in the authorization. 23andMe will not disclose any identifying information about the authorizing user’s genetic relatives or connections that 23andMe holds unless those users also provide express, written consent. "

The major autosomal testing companies have all pushed back against law enforcement searching their DNA databases for the obvious reasons of privacy and consent. However, anyone who has taken a test with 23&me, Ancestry, etc. can get a copy of their own DNA – it’s just a short text file – and upload it to a third-party site like GEDmatch. When the profile is first created at GEDmatch, the DEFAULT is to NOT allow sharing with LE. The user must manually toggle an “opt in” button to allow sharing. With this, they have given explicit approval for law enforcement comparisons. It’s unfortunate that only about half of the GEDmatch users do this.

 

[sam hamich]

Every time that I have seen the vid the thing that jumped out to me was the gait, the walk of the guy he seems to have a limp or preference for the right side

 

[HistoryNut]

Every time that I have seen the vid the thing that jumped out to me was the gait, the walk of the guy he seems to have a limp or preference for the right side

I can see what you mean, but I think he may have been drunk or otherwise impaired. Weird gait and all, he seemed to be abnormally confident crossing that bridge.

 

[Boxer]

Every time that I have seen the vid the thing that jumped out to me was the gait, the walk of the guy he seems to have a limp or preference for the right side

I see a man doing an an agressive cross over step, the block step one does to cut off a dog or to keep some one from passing.

 

[sunshineray]

Every time that I have seen the vid the thing that jumped out to me was the gait, the walk of the guy he seems to have a limp or preference for the right side

I think it's a 50/50 chance it's that or just a bad spot on the bridge he was avoiding. The clip is too short for me to decide.

 

[Lavender Moon]

I can see what you mean, but I think he may have been drunk or otherwise impaired. Weird gait and all, he seemed to be abnormally confident crossing that bridge.

I haven't considered that he may have been in some sort of altered state. I've read that Ted Bundy drank before he attacked. Probably a lot of those bozos do that. I do wonder, though, if he could have controlled two healthy girls who were probably full of adrenaline. Maybe it depends on how drunk he was.