Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #142

[photographer4]

We might be missing something here guys...
The video according to HLN last night was 43s long right? The "guys, down the hill" part is at or near the end. We've heard LE comment that they saw the feelings the girls were experiencing, though LE did not specify which girl. I'd like to ask - what is on the rest of that video? Surely its not all BG making his approach right? So I wonder, what else was on that video that we've not been told about? Any chance LG turned around and gave a view of her surroundings? Any chance there is something in that video that shows what the kids suddenly realized they'd walked into? If so, what could that be? A trap of some sort? A waiting car with doors open along that private road at the end of the bridge? What else is on that video that we aren't told / shown? LG has been called brave for having the presence of mind to make that video - I'm now inclined more than ever to think its not all just BG approaching. Something more has to be on that. Were they looking for their escape and finding none? What did the girls and subsequently LE see on that video aside BG's approach???

 

[k-mac]

I agree the meet up was planned to some extent. Now we know why LE said parent’s should know what their children are up to and doing online (paraphrasing here). But how do we reconcile LE telling others there was no reason to be afraid? IMO they all had every reason to be fearful and maybe still even now. IMO

yes very contradictory.
I think the earliest information is usually the closest .(so parents watch what ya kids are doing)

Things that come out after a week usually have controlled purpose.
(the later ....maybe to avoid hysteria?)

I wonder at times if they seen the video and thought it would all come together quickly.

moo

 

[k-mac]

We might be missing something here guys...
The video according to HLN last night was 43s long right? The "guys, down the hill" part is at or near the end. We've heard LE comment that they saw the feelings the girls were experiencing, though LE did not specify which girl. I'd like to ask - what is on the rest of that video? Surely its not all BG making his approach right? So I wonder, what else was on that video that we've not been told about? Any chance LG turned around and gave a view of her surroundings? Any chance there is something in that video that shows what the kids suddenly realized they'd walked into? If so, what could that be? A trap of some sort? A waiting car with doors open along that private road at the end of the bridge? What else is on that video that we aren't told / shown? LG has been called brave for having the presence of mind to make that video - I'm now inclined more than ever to think its not all just BG approaching. Something more has to be on that. Were they looking for their escape and finding none? What did the girls and subsequently LE see on that video aside BG's approach???

It would have been very easy for him to have pushed one of them off the bridge from that height it would have been disabling for sure...likely bone breaking.
Carter saying about seeing the girls reactions and feelings thats what comes to mind to me.
Push one off and grab onto the other one while aiming a gun at the one on the ground.

I still think they made a run for it to the creek.

moo

 

[photographer4]

It would have been very easy for him to have pushed one of them off the bridge from that height it would have been disabling for sure...likely bone breaking.
Carter saying about seeing the girls reactions and feelings thats what comes to mind to me.
Push one off and grab onto the other one while aiming a gun at the one on the ground.

I still think they made a run for it to the creek.

moo

Ok, if they dashed towards the creek, then are you thinking this was BEFORE BG ordered them down the hill or that they were ordered and bolted afterwards?

I think there is something more to the video that we're not told / shown. It cannot just be 43s of BG's approach and him ordering them down the hill. The kids must have realized / seen / noticed something right as he was approaching that scared them (LE have said that they saw the feelings the girl(s) felt - didn't say which girl or why, or even how they saw it). Its bothering the hell out of me. What is the rest of the 43s clip and what else was recorded (audio / video/ pics) on that device? At some point, did BG take the phone from the girls and use it himself to record their fear?? Is that why we're told its about power to him?

 

[Trebor5591]

When the FBI profiler on the panel last night talked about killers joining search parties as a way to hide their connection to the crime but how they risked dropping something near the crime scene that might point LE toward them, I thought of somebody folks have talked about that may have lost something while helping with the search and people think it’s a little suspicious.

Sorry I am not understanding you. Who were folks talking about who lost something while helping with the search that people think is suspicious?

 

[PnzrIVausf.G]

well when I was looking at that white symbol on his shirt,I swear I could see some dark green binoculars just above that symbol on him but if that's true than depending on the model I mean theoretically he could have started stalking them hundreds of yards back in the opposite direction from which they started the trail on.I love optics telescopes/binoculars astronomy in general,like starrystarrynight up there with the pleides avatar which is a good choice,I like to look at pleides too but day time viewing with binoculars,if i had open fields in the middle of nowhere and had my binoculars out and if the distance was great,something big enough like a car would catch my eye especially if it stopped.I might get curious as to whats going on and I'll look but like i'd look and i'd just see two kids getting out and walking a trail and dismiss it but if the observer happened to have homicidal/pedophilia tendencies than that person perhaps saw their opportunity to prey on those two girls.car leaves girls start walking he follows from behind....if indeed those are binoculars.

 

[K.jill]

Ok, if they dashed towards the creek, then are you thinking this was BEFORE BG ordered them down the hill or that they were ordered and bolted afterwards?

I think there is something more to the video that we're not told / shown. It cannot just be 43s of BG's approach and him ordering them down the hill. The kids must have realized / seen / noticed something right as he was approaching that scared them (LE have said that they saw the feelings the girl(s) felt - didn't say which girl or why, or even how they saw it). Its bothering the hell out of me. What is the rest of the 43s clip and what else was recorded (audio / video/ pics) on that device? At some point, did BG take the phone from the girls and use it himself to record their fear?? Is that why we're told its about power to him?

Always thought Libby got him on video from a distance and then put the phone in a pocket. Instead of putting the phone in her pocket did she turn the camera to Abby? And if so, bg would likely have known he was on video. I would not be surprised if Libby tossed the phone in brush at some point so he could not retrieve it easily.
visualizing this makes me so sad and angry!
Someone posted a couple of months ago that they want vengeance for Abby and Libby.
Vengeance, me too.

 

[Prime8]

Any DNA experts here? Would a mixed sample be of any use at all?
I follow another case where there is apparently no useful dna. Katherine Janness in atlanta. It was an extremely violent and gruesome attack with an edged weapon. The murder was so depraved and brazen, makes me think of jack the ripper and Black Dahlia. I have not been able to wrap my mind around how the killer did not cut him/her self during the attack. Can it really be explained by the killers blood mixing with the victim’s?

Paul Holes said on the HLN special last night that if a large proportion of one person's blood mixes with a small amount of second person's blood, it would be very difficult to extract a profile from that second person.

We might be missing something here guys...

I don't think we're missing something, we've just never been given very much. All we know is that BG came into view in the background at one point and at the very end said "guys, down the hill". That's about a grand total of 4 seconds max, there is obviously a whole lot we don't know.

 

[IceIce9]

When the retired FBI profiler on the HLN panel last night was talking about the killer being a huge risk taker because the murders were in broad daylight in a public place, I thought of JBC and his audacious attack on the little girl in Lafayette.
When HLN talked about how quickly BG had to have crossed the bridge and accosted the girls, I thought of JBC and how he doesn’t appear to be afraid of heights and how quickly he snatched the Lafayette victim.
When HLN talked about the short timeline I thought of the killer probably hearing DG calling for the girls but still finishing what he came for, and I thought about JBC continuing to attack the Lafayette victim even though people and LE were outside actively looking for her.
When the FBI profiler on the panel last night talked about killers joining search parties as a way to hide their connection to the crime but how they risked dropping something near the crime scene that might point LE toward them, I thought of somebody folks have talked about that may have lost something while helping with the search and people think it’s a little suspicious.
All the talking they did, I never thought of KAK or DN, or other POIs in this case over the years.
But JBC and the other guy I could see them being talked about last night.
Just my thoughts.

Like losing their keys or something?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Like losing their keys or something?

Something like that.

 

[JudgeJudi]

KAK factory reset a phone two days before the search warrant at his Dad's house. Then he turned that phone into LE himself days after the search was done.

Only thing is, wouldn't LE tech forensics have picked up on that, with Libby's phone, if anthony_shots communication showed up? So is that what happened way back at the beginning, LE techs missed the connection?

It seems that LE can retrieve everything before the factory reset. I'd love to know what they were able to retrieve from Libby's phone before she went to the MHB.

Can mobile phone data be recovered after a reset - NSI Global

Can mobile phone data be recovered after a factory reset?

Yes, data can be recovered utilising a forensic data recovery process after a factory reset.

The 5 step forensic data recovery process NSI will use to recover data after a factory reset.

1. The first step involves the triage of the device and identifying the purpose of the digital forensic investigation and the tools that are going to be utilised. We take on both private and legal matters and have legally qualified digital forensic examiners that have been called upon by law firms to provide expert witness testimony.
2. Step 2 is the collection of data from the device. This involves the device being connected to our proprietary hardware in our forensic lab and a digital forensic technician beginning an extraction of the device.
3. Step 3 is the analysis phase of the forensic process. The digital forensic technician processes the raw binary data that has been extracted. Factors such as the way in which the device was used since the data was deleted, if there were any software updates or factory resets, and the amount of memory on the device, will determine the success of the recovery.
4. Step 4 is the reporting phase of the investigation. Once data is recovered and analysed, we then create reports based on our client’s requirements such as messages between a group of people at a particular time. If required, legally admissible reports can be prepared and examiners can present evidence in court.
5. Step 5 is the completion phase. Our examiners prepare the device and reports for the client and go through the findings with them.

 

[k-mac]

Ok, if they dashed towards the creek, then are you thinking this was BEFORE BG ordered them down the hill or that they were ordered and bolted afterwards?

I think there is something more to the video that we're not told / shown. It cannot just be 43s of BG's approach and him ordering them down the hill. The kids must have realized / seen / noticed something right as he was approaching that scared them (LE have said that they saw the feelings the girl(s) felt - didn't say which girl or why, or even how they saw it). Its bothering the hell out of me. What is the rest of the 43s clip and what else was recorded (audio / video/ pics) on that device? At some point, did BG take the phone from the girls and use it himself to record their fear?? Is that why we're told its about power to him?

I hold the theory that he threatened them, pushed one of them off the bridge, ordered the other one down the hill and a struggle ensued and they made a break across the creek toward Ron Logans property where he caught up to them.
Still cant rule out 2 of them in my head either

Where the girls expecting to meet someone at the end of the track?
Just not the creepy guy who presented himself....

Knowing the video time stamp now.... I think he was at the end of the bridge waiting for them.


moo

 

[photographer4]

I hold the theory that he threatened them, pushed one of them off the bridge, ordered the other one down the hill and a struggle ensued and they made a break across the creek toward Ron Logans property where he caught up to them.
Still cant rule out 2 of them in my head either

Where the girls expecting to meet someone at the end of the track?
Just not the creepy guy who presented himself....

Knowing the video time stamp now.... I think he was at the end of the bridge waiting for them.


moo

Ok, so you're thinking he pushed one off the bridge? Then why, on the audio that we have from LE does he use the plural "guys"?? If he had pushed one and taken control of the other, would he be using the plural "guys"?? Doubtful in my opinion. We were told by LE at some point (I think during a q & a) that LE believe he used manipulation to control them. That doesn't seem to me like he chucked one of them over the bridge. Besides which, Libby was already at the end, I think on stable ground when she filmed BG approaching and Abby wasn't far off being beside her, so I'm not thinking that is super likely. I appreciate the outside the box thinking though.

 

[PnzrIVausf.G]

Anyone know the frequency these girls walked that trail?

 

[mom2chloe]

this is the only relevant piece of info we got new here.

And its a biggy IMO.

We have a predator stating out loud HE WAS THE LAST PERSON TO COMMUNICATE WITH LIBBY.

The relevance of this can't be eliminated.
Considering the family don't want to face the possibility of Libby doing things behind their back.
Its understandable...but this line has been hush hushed from the get go and it really really shouldnt have.

I have 3 kids....adult now.....and I didnt trust them at that age...for their own benefit.
Comes out in dribs and drabs I was right!!!
And in saying that my 3 are all well rounded perfectly good adults and were perfectly good kids.

Normal wing spreading to not share everything with your family.
Friends (girls especially) love bonding with secrets.
Appropriate age behaviour.They vary in levels of worry obviously kid to kid.

Now the internets dark influence on these kids nowadays...scary.

The meet up IMO was planned.

moo

I agree the meet up was planned to some extent. Now we know why LE said parent’s should know what their children are up to and doing online )paraphrasing here. But how do we reconcile LE telling others there was no reason to be afraid? IMO they all had every reason to be fearful and maybe still even now. IMO

It seems that LE can retrieve everything before the factory reset. I'd love to know what they were able to retrieve from Libby's phone before she went to the MHB.

Can mobile phone data be recovered after a reset - NSI Global

Can mobile phone data be recovered after a factory reset?

Yes, data can be recovered utilising a forensic data recovery process after a factory reset.

The 5 step forensic data recovery process NSI will use to recover data after a factory reset.

1. The first step involves the triage of the device and identifying the purpose of the digital forensic investigation and the tools that are going to be utilised. We take on both private and legal matters and have legally qualified digital forensic examiners that have been called upon by law firms to provide expert witness testimony.
2. Step 2 is the collection of data from the device. This involves the device being connected to our proprietary hardware in our forensic lab and a digital forensic technician beginning an extraction of the device.
3. Step 3 is the analysis phase of the forensic process. The digital forensic technician processes the raw binary data that has been extracted. Factors such as the way in which the device was used since the data was deleted, if there were any software updates or factory resets, and the amount of memory on the device, will determine the success of the recovery.
4. Step 4 is the reporting phase of the investigation. Once data is recovered and analysed, we then create reports based on our client’s requirements such as messages between a group of people at a particular time. If required, legally admissible reports can be prepared and examiners can present evidence in court.
5. Step 5 is the completion phase. Our examiners prepare the device and reports for the client and go through the findings with them.

i hate to sound like an idiot but even after a factory reset isn’t all this info stored in the cloud somewhere via service provider or otherwise?

 

[ScumbagTrav]

Would having the date, time, and address and name for a probable cause affidavit be enough to request a copy from the Carroll County Circuit Court?

 

[k-mac]

Ok, so you're thinking he pushed one off the bridge? Then why, on the audio that we have from LE does he use the plural "guys"?? If he had pushed one and taken control of the other, would he be using the plural "guys"?? Doubtful in my opinion. We were told by LE at some point (I think during a q & a) that LE believe he used manipulation to control them. That doesn't seem to me like he chucked one of them over the bridge. Besides which, Libby was already at the end, I think on stable ground when she filmed BG approaching and Abby wasn't far off being beside her, so I'm not thinking that is super likely. I appreciate the outside the box thinking though.

yeah agreed.
Nothing is solid with the information we have at hand.

 

[PnzrIVausf.G]

Bothers me they said nothing not a "i got you on camera!",or a "eff off",why?What other force was at play here?A family member or friend of family?It's like they knew this guy was already weird and was taken aback because he just got a lot weirder.

 

[MadMcGoo]

It was good to hear Abby’s and Libby’s name on the news throughout my day. It’s hard to believe 5 years have passed. May this be the year for justice!!!

 

[Yemelyan]

Like all of you I have spent a LOT of time pondering this case. One thing that I have kept coming back to is: How is it that there is not a good DNA sample!!!
I have asked questions about this here and there has been plenty of discussion about it. Never crossed my mind that if the killer cut himself or was injured by one of the girls, his blood could have mixed with theirs and the DNA would be useless. This seems a simple and likely explanation.
Any DNA experts here? Would a mixed sample be of any use at all?
I follow another case where there is apparently no useful dna. Katherine Janness in atlanta. It was an extremely violent and gruesome attack with an edged weapon. The murder was so depraved and brazen, makes me think of jack the ripper and Black Dahlia. I have not been able to wrap my mind around how the killer did not cut him/her self during the attack. Can it really be explained by the killers blood mixing with the victim’s?

It's a long-ish read, but I think this will help you with what you want to know.

DNA Mixtures: A Forensic Science Explainer

DNA mixtures can be complex, but it depends greatly on the specifics of the case. The relative amounts of victim DNA vs DNA of other contributors in the mixture (which Holes was talking about) is just one of many factors.

There are many companies/labs with their own proprietary probabilistic genetic software that interprets DNA mixtures. Sometimes the confidence level in the results is greater and sometimes it's lower - it can still be presented at trial and the jury will have to decide.