Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #143

[Spartygirl]

It’s very convenient that this document was accidentally available just at the time when a podcasting, Indiana bar lawyer, was looking at the case files.

A clerk at a state level court system would be unlikely to screw up in this way, IMO. In my experience clerks know what they’re doing; in fact more often rests on the clerks than the judges in getting a case through the courts successfully.

This is just my opinion obviously, but considering the gravity of what leaked, and the circumstances, I don’t think it was an accident.

There have been a few "LEAKS" in other cases I have followed

It's good for us when that happens, IMO, as I always get impatient while waiting for either an arrest or court/trial to see them.

It's NOT good for the clerk or person who accidently leaked them.
One we know for sure was by accident, by a clerk, so we know it can and does happen.
JMO

 

[Prime8]

The court filing was un-redacted, it was Murder Sheets podcast that did the redacting.

Yes, but there is now an un-redacted version of the transcript that has been made public, not by the podcast. I'm wondering where that was leaked from.

 

[LeBlack]

Except that it’s full of innocent people names, including some young victims who thankfully they redacted, and there is a risk to the county/state of being sued for that leak. I’m on the fence about it being an accident or a sanctioned strategic plan, or maybe a rogue decision to leak.
Edited to add: If it was a strategic plan, maybe it didn’t happen the way the Murder Sheet podcasters said it did. Maybe it was never up online where anyone could see victim and innocent names but leaked to them redacted and with that cover story.

Except they had to rush release and missed redacting a name of a victim.

 

[sandy_80]

some are saying the podcast claimed they had permission from le ..
you know what this means ? that this dude can def use this in court as an unprecedented violation of his rights..I swear i keep being baffled about just how bad this le is handling things

 

[JnRyan]

BBM
“The Delphi Task Force requested the FBI to remove the physical descriptors listed on the flyer. Investigators do not want to discourage or stop the public from submitting a tip because the person does not specifically meet the height, weight, and age description. Investigators would like the public to focus on the photo of the man on the bridge, the voice recording, and second sketch that was released by law enforcement."
Some suspect info removed from FBI poster on Delphi killings | wthr.com

Interesting. I don't know what to make of this info. Has the Task Force come to the conclusion that the person's appearance - particularly hair and weight - could be different enough 5 years late to the point where they want the info removed? Has follow up interviews of witnesses by newer investigators caused them to lose some confidence in the description? If it is the later, I would hardly expect LE to admit it to the public as it might cause the public to question the sketches.

Also, in spite of ISP Superintendent Carter's theory that the suspect is somewhere between the 2 sketches, the 'investigators' (whoever that may be now) want the public to focus on the 2nd sketch?

I suspect there is enough doubt as to what happened that day that as the Task Force participants change the prevailing opinion changes about certain aspects of the timeline and persons involved.

 

[TL4S]

I've read and reread the interview regarding a_shots communicating with L. During this specific part of the discussion, LE brings up several subjects, quickly and consecutively.

1. KAK originally denied talking to L after the beginning of Feb. That he blocked her because she was annoying to him. He denies any other communication to her being from him.
2. They have images. This part includes the mention of a nude (unclear what this means), but also the grooming pictures (Ferrari, money, etc.)
3. A_shots money account going to L
4. Kik messages with "all these my daddy references"
5. Two different authors, different phrasing, multiple account log ins, with SC and Kik, from same residence
6. KAK's phone search history deleted from 2/10 to 2/15, with nothing in between, while all other devices have complete histories
7. The timeframe of the grooming and build up to a meeting is wiped from phone

They then go on to surmise the complexity of the a_shots persona is not just KAK's idea alone. That the search history continues into Vegas, where nobody else was there but KAK and his dad. And...still sending SC messages to L despite knowing she was dead.

KAK says he must have sent a group SC, but the officer says, "but again, that one in there that -" and KAK says, "I, I know what you mean. I had nothing to do with that." Then goes on to say he has no clue who killed the girls. Officers suddenly switch back to the issue of KAK not being a car guy. Circling back to the beginning when they talked about KAK's dad being a car guy.

Okay, there is stuff going on here that KAK is admitting to, sometimes in a roundabout way. I don't think LE has to sit there and lie to coerce him into talking, they literally have the proof in hand, reading from it, and he doesn't deny most of it. To my eyes, it reads clearly that LE is suspecting KAK's dad as the other "author," and that each had communicated with L and L's friend, both before and after the murders.

Next, they question him about his claims to be with his dad on the day of the murders. Again, phone evidence instead puts his phone at a house on Country Club Rd, looking up *advertiser censored*.

There's a short discussion about Friend 2, which really leads nowhere other than LE, for the second time, using his statements about his friends to pretty much disprove other things he's said or done. In this case, it's memory-related.

Then, lastly, they ask why KAK is covering for someone. They give him a hundred opportunities to name that somebody else. He doesn't.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

some are saying the podcast claimed they had permission from le ..
you know what this means ? that this dude can def use this in court as an unprecedented violation of his rights..I swear i keep being baffled about just how bad this le is handling things

I was shocked no one…prosecutors, LE, or defense…asked for the transcripts not to be released.
It’s possible though that LE has others sources for the important information and don’t really need the transcript.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I've read and reread the interview regarding a_shots communicating with L. During this specific part of the discussion, LE brings up several subjects, quickly and consecutively.

1. KAK originally denied talking to L after the beginning of Feb. That he blocked her because she was annoying to him. He denies any other communication to her being from him.
2. They have images. This part includes the mention of a nude (unclear what this means), but also the grooming pictures (Ferrari, money, etc.)
3. A_shots money account going to L
4. Kik messages with "all these my daddy references"
5. Two different authors, different phrasing, multiple account log ins, with SC and Kik, from same residence
6. KAK's phone search history deleted from 2/10 to 2/15, with nothing in between, while all other devices have complete histories
7. The timeframe of the grooming and build up to a meeting is wiped from phone

They then go on to surmise the complexity of the a_shots persona is not just KAK's idea alone. That the search history continues into Vegas, where nobody else was there but KAK and his dad. And...still sending SC messages to L despite knowing she was dead.

KAK says he must have sent a group SC, but the officer says, "but again, that one in there that -" and KAK says, "I, I know what you mean. I had nothing to do with that." Then goes on to say he has no clue who killed the girls. Officers suddenly switch back to the issue of KAK not being a car guy. Circling back to the beginning when they talked about KAK's dad being a car guy.

Okay, there is stuff going on here that KAK is admitting to, sometimes in a roundabout way. I don't think LE has to sit there and lie to coerce him into talking, they literally have the proof in hand, reading from it, and he doesn't deny most of it. To my eyes, it reads clearly that LE is suspecting KAK's dad as the other "author," and that both had communicated with L and L's friend, both before and after the murders.

Next, they question him about his claims to be with his dad on the day of the murders. Again, phone evidence instead puts his phone at a house on Country Club Rd, looking up *advertiser censored*.

There's a short discussion about Friend 2, which really leads nowhere other than LE, for the second time, using his statements about his friends to pretty much disprove other things he's said or done. In this case, it's memory-related.

Then, lastly, they ask why KAK is covering for someone. They give him a hundred opportunities to name that somebody else. He doesn't.

A thousand likes on this!
A clear concise summary. Things are kinda scattered in the transcript, and you brought it all together so well!

 

[Marzipan]

If it was a leak, I would find it more likely that someone tipped them to look at the court filing at a certain time that day. They have claimed to have sources who have lead them to certain court filings in the past. I think LE and the courts would easily be able to know if it was accidentally uploaded and made public, my guess is many filings are open to attorneys, but this one was not so it may have been the default to have it visible and someone didn't change that. Having known many attorneys in my life, I'm not sure TMS host would lie that he accessed it legally from the Indiana site, most lawyers don't want to get in any hot water that could jeopardize their license.

There apparently is an un-redacted version out there (which I will not be looking for). Does anyone know where that came from?

If there’s an unredacted one that shares innocent and victim names and other people got that and shared it, then my heart is breaking and I’ll just be polite here and call that a cluster…debacle. Staff do make mistakes but that’s rough.

 

[TL4S]

Interesting. I don't know what to make of this info. Has the Task Force come to the conclusion that the person's appearance - particularly hair and weight - could be different enough 5 years late to the point where they want the info removed? Has follow up interviews of witnesses by newer investigators caused them to lose some confidence in the description? If it is the later, I would hardly expect LE to admit it to the public as it might cause the public to question the sketches.

Also, in spite of ISP Superintendent Carter's theory that the suspect is somewhere between the 2 sketches, the 'investigators' (whoever that may be now) want the public to focus on the 2nd sketch?

I suspect there is enough doubt as to what happened that day that as the Task Force participants change the prevailing opinion changes about certain aspects of the timeline and persons involved.

I'm willing to go off the deep end for a minute, trying to make this work.

What if the 2019 "change in direction" was a tactical change. There were multiple witnesses involved in the first sketch (older), and it's based on somebody people saw in the area that day. That's been publicly stated. We hear the younger sketch was made by a single individual who "saw something they thought needed reporting." I do not think for a minute that it's the model used in the a_shots account, but what if it is KAK? Who knows where the witness saw this "something that needed reporting," or even if that's true.

What if during the CSAM investigation, when LE found all the links between a_shots and L, they started to suspect KAK's father as being the man in the older sketch. IDK, maybe they didn't have what they needed to nail his dad, so they switched tactics and started to put the pressure on KAK, hoping he'd fold (or his dad would).

By that point, KAK is probably crapping his pants, because he knows what happened. Maybe he knew it was his dad's work car, or his own Grand Am parked in the CPS lot. Maybe KAK holds that "one tip" LE needs to solve this case. But he's not coming forward.

Another year of investigation goes by and LE is ready to arrest KAK for the CSAM charges. Now they have something to bargain with him. He still doesn't fold. So, a public ask is released regarding the "creator" of the a_shots account, the physical description of the suspect is removed, but the younger (KAK) sketch remains. An HLN reporter is allowed to talk to KAK and release only the part of her interview that included KAK saying LE told him he was the last person to talk to L the day of the murders. More and more and more pressure on KAK. He's going to take the fall for this if he doesn't speak up. Question is, why doesn't he?

 

[Ravenmoon]

They searched KAK devices, NOT his father's

Yes? And? I have never said that his dads devices were searched.

 

[Silver_produce0]

@TL4S IMO those are excellent points. That explains why they are looking for the DRIVER of the vehicle that they can’t or won’t describe for us. It also explains why DC/TL haven’t dismissed the older sketch. I believe TL said something like, we’re not saying he’s not involved.

 

[Prime8]

Interesting. I don't know what to make of this info. Has the Task Force come to the conclusion that the person's appearance - particularly hair and weight - could be different enough 5 years late to the point where they want the info removed? Has follow up interviews of witnesses by newer investigators caused them to lose some confidence in the description? If it is the later, I would hardly expect LE to admit it to the public as it might cause the public to question the sketches.

I was listening to a podcast and they were discussing a missing child, who was 5 years old at the time. A few years later they had to put out a photo with an age-progression because people continued to call in tips of spotting a 5 year old and sometimes even younger kids. There was a public disconnect that this 5 year old child had been missing for years and would no longer be 5. So I think you may be right, that person from 5 years ago doesn't look the same.

 

[Ravenmoon]

depends what you mean by truthful ?
its an investigation not meant for the public and its very possible it does not contain any truth except that KAK is a *** which we already know and some crimes against minors

The documents are a reflection of KAK . Who he is, what he has done and the links that he has. When it comes to the devices in question- particularly the two that had the information about an iphone and a galaxy (? I think that is what they said) The morning of the murders.They show him (apparently via the interview) the records from the investigation. That sound to me like more than just LE making things up.

AMOO MOO JMO

 

[zencompass]

It is interesting that Doug Carter has not ruled out more than one murderer/participant.


From the following January 28, 2020 Indiana State Police video, Doug Carter says: at 11:10 Video Time

"And if, uh, you know, we've said this before. If either one of these individuals or a group whatever that might be, that were involved in this, there's multiple ways to resolve this, in your mind, in your heart and in your soul. And I hope you'll do the right thing one day."

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

One thing that's not gelling for me is this idea of a multi-person conspiracy. Conspiracy to what now?

1. Conspiracy to lure girls to be raped and murdered by KAK and his dad, or a bunch of redneck friends or whatever. Ok fine, but there's no real trend of missing girls/young women in the wider area going back years.

2. Maybe KAK works for a cabal/secret group of powerful local guys who like teenagers. Again, fine theory, but there are no missing teenagers to account for that. And also, most 'local powerful cabals' tend to include the chief of police, and in this case it's clear the police are *trying* to do something.

3. Trick girls into sending nudes. Well whoa, that seems like a HELL OF A LOT of effort to get some nude pics of teenage girls, which you could probably get on the dark web - or the non-dark web even - very easily. A multi-person conspiracy for this? No.

So then what other angles are there that would involve multiple possible people using the same devices to deceive young girls around the same central conspiracy? Maybe theory (1) above stands, and the Delphi girls were just the first, and the guys bottled it when they got an idea of what it's really like. But that doesn't explain the very efficient kidnapping and murder of those two girls; if it was the first time, it would have been less complex and more of a mess, IMO.

The only logical path I can see - from KAK's point of view - is that to muddy the waters by introducing the father, creates a possible successful defense in court. It means his defense team can point the finger at someone else, creating reasonable doubt. And then so could his father, if he ever got arrested, by pointing the finger right back.

It still doesn't explain *why* he would have gone after those girls, and how he/they pulled it off so professionally, without a) leaving a trending pattern in the wider geographic area over time of other victims, and/or b) having far more powerful friends than Delphi PD.

JMO.

 

[zencompass]

When I was watching the video (post #934 of this page), I kept in mind that this video was made 7 months before KAK's arrest (August, 2020)

That's why Superintendent Doug Carter's words, "either one of these individuals" and "group" jumped out at me.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I would like to state things that I , personally , have taken away from the interview(both from LE and the Barbara McDonald interviews) and IMO believe are accurate.

KAK is obviously a pedophile.


TK is violent and has physically harmed a child- he fractured the boys orbital socket and repeatedly dunked his head in a filthy backed up toilet. During this incident, he also punched the childs mother after chasing her AND bit her on the stomach.


LE has evidence that the Anthony Shots account was in contact with LG more than KAK is willing to admit. She was enamored with Anthony Shots.
2 phones inside of the Kline residence were shown to have had contact with LG the day that she was murdered.


LE believes , that by examining the language and grammar used on the AS account, 2 different people were using it to contact young girls.
About a week after the murders the AS account was able to get the address of another 14 year old girl who said that after school, she would be alone for a couple of hours. That day , a man with a ski mask peered into her window.

All of my bets are on a person that KAK lived with and not on KAK himself- someone that has a history of violence.


AMOO MOO JMO

EBM to add all of these things can be read on documentation from the new LE interviews and / or the Barbara McDonald transcripts.

 

[Spartygirl]

I've read and reread the interview regarding a_shots communicating with L. During this specific part of the discussion, LE brings up several subjects, quickly and consecutively.

1. KAK originally denied talking to L after the beginning of Feb. That he blocked her because she was annoying to him. He denies any other communication to her being from him.
2. They have images. This part includes the mention of a nude (unclear what this means), but also the grooming pictures (Ferrari, money, etc.)
3. A_shots money account going to L
4. Kik messages with "all these my daddy references"
5. Two different authors, different phrasing, multiple account log ins, with SC and Kik, from same residence
6. KAK's phone search history deleted from 2/10 to 2/15, with nothing in between, while all other devices have complete histories
7. The timeframe of the grooming and build up to a meeting is wiped from phone

They then go on to surmise the complexity of the a_shots persona is not just KAK's idea alone. That the search history continues into Vegas, where nobody else was there but KAK and his dad. And...still sending SC messages to L despite knowing she was dead.

KAK says he must have sent a group SC, but the officer says, "but again, that one in there that -" and KAK says, "I, I know what you mean. I had nothing to do with that." Then goes on to say he has no clue who killed the girls. Officers suddenly switch back to the issue of KAK not being a car guy. Circling back to the beginning when they talked about KAK's dad being a car guy.

Okay, there is stuff going on here that KAK is admitting to, sometimes in a roundabout way. I don't think LE has to sit there and lie to coerce him into talking, they literally have the proof in hand, reading from it, and he doesn't deny most of it. To my eyes, it reads clearly that LE is suspecting KAK's dad as the other "author," and that each had communicated with L and L's friend, both before and after the murders.

Next, they question him about his claims to be with his dad on the day of the murders. Again, phone evidence instead puts his phone at a house on Country Club Rd, looking up *advertiser censored*.

There's a short discussion about Friend 2, which really leads nowhere other than LE, for the second time, using his statements about his friends to pretty much disprove other things he's said or done. In this case, it's memory-related.

Then, lastly, they ask why KAK is covering for someone. They give him a hundred opportunities to name that somebody else. He doesn't.

Thank you for this
I have not had time to read through it all or listen to any pods/youtubes about it due to life happenings so I appreciate this summary recap.

I need to think about all of this now and go over my notes from the beginning.

I do have saved, in the very beginning a few news briefs mentioning SC and catfishing. I, honestly, poo-pooed it away as that was not where my thoughts were at all regarding the girls' murder.

I also saved a SS of Libby's SC, KIK and other SM accts and .....
YES, there is A_Shots on there, liking some of Libby's posts/photos and I had saved these since the very beginning, but obviously, I did not look deeper into that aspect.

 

[Barbieshell]

It's not completely against the realms of possibility that BG is KAK himself.
He's a compulsive liar who partook in grooming behaviour and is a complete nonce with a sick stash of CSAM.
The voice sounds more like him, he could've left a phone at friend 1 or 2s house whilst he was off at the MHB where he went to possibly silence Libby when she threatened to out him and his disgusting ways (taking another of his many phones).
He's a complete wrongun who doesn't look like bridge guy but he's probably put on 100lbs since 2017......it's possible.
Yes he's provided DNA and hair samples but didn't someone once say the case wouldn't be solved on DNA alone iirc?
He played a blinder in all of his interviews in his memory lapses / deflections, he reminded me of Keyser Soze a bit the horrible .
This needs solving, the girls deserve justice and BG deserves the death penalty.
JMOO