Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[ChuckInHouston]

Ultimately I believe KK and TK, possibly one more will be charged in this case. KK, an admitted perv, and last person to have contacted victim via social media. The fact that LE knows two different people were using the AS profile on multiple devices. KK’s admission that TK is no longer speaking with him. KK lying about going to grand parents house during timeframe of murders. LE must be very careful before charging anyone. You only get one bite at the apple. Personally I believe KK is helping implicate TK, or is in the process of cutting a deal, but LE needs something concrete on TK before they will finalize it.

 

[Charlot123]

Has this been shared?

Delphi victim's mom on handling of case: 'They don't know what they're doing, still'

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — The mother of one of the girls murdered in Delphi five years ago said she has lost faith in law enforcement. Libby German’s mom, Carrie Timmons, is making that statement one week after I-team 8 revealed stunning new details in the case. Last week, I-Team 8 with the help of...

www.wishtv.com

Poor woman! One feels incredibly compassionate towards her.

 

[Kell1]

I would like to argue regarding the fame factor.. as it's one of my theorised possible motives
he doesn't have to seek fame by communication..this is something of the past prior to the digital age where its longer possible to hide ur identity...
rather.. he can seek fame by committing a strange or unusual murder( as in the staging of the crime ) that will grant him an unusual offender lable or coverage ...I know he didnt know he was being recorded

I have to disagree , respectfully

Im not up for an argument, but I can speak from experience, and training.

And ill say this once more, thinking "outside the box" works in business, etc.. Its not always a great idea in an investigation. Stay with the evidence let that lead, you.

There are MANY true crime fans who interject far flung theories, (take a look at any Zodiac thread )because they read books etc...

AS my LT said, "look at what you have, look at it again, question everyone, and those with alibis twice"

Now , People who seek notoriety for crimes, will almost certainly display SOME form of desire for the crime itself to be known.

For example, If the bodies were displayed, or theres communication with the police, the media, the families, or posted somewhere online etc...then theres some ground to make that assumption, in this case however they were hidden, and they were hidden an already secluded area, no communication with anyone whatsoever .

Behaviorally that doesn't scream of someone seeking attention, that's someone who hopes they are never found and they can live the rest of their lives in the shadows

Now they may seek to relive the experience, which is why they sometimes take trophies, but that is differnt from seeking notoriety.

Most murders are not committed for notoriety, it makes good literature, and a great story, but very few killers (i dare say any) kill simply to be linked to something .

As Ive stated before attention seeking is a secondary component of infamy, its the crime that matters most, they boast about it once the media feeds, their need for power .

May they revel in it privately?, possibly, but that is not attention or notoriety seeking.

Once you understand that , you can look at it realistically, .. Did this guy go kill 2 girls, just to be linked to a unsolved crime?

Why leave DNA? why hide them if you want to be known?, why not display their bodies for shock value?, why not communicate with police, families, the general public, online, anonymously ? ....As for attention seeking, Id have to say absolutely not

The presence of DNA (depending on the source) suggests a sexual motive for the crime , other possibilities, exist, but that seems to be the prevailing angle .

 

[sandy_80]

I have to disagree , respectfully

Im not up for an argument, but I can speak from experience, and training.

And ill say this once more, thinking "outside the box" works in business, etc.. Its not always a great idea in an investigation. Stay with the evidence let that lead, you.

There are MANY true crime fans who interject far flung theories, (take a look at any Zodiac thread )because they read books etc...

AS my LT said, "look at what you have, look at it again, question everyone, and those with alibis twice"

Now , People who seek notoriety for crimes, will almost certainly display SOME form of desire for the crime itself to be known.

For example, If the bodies were displayed, or theres communication with the police, the media, the families, or posted somewhere online etc...then theres some ground to make that assumption, in this case however they were hidden, and they were hidden an already secluded area, no communication with anyone whatsoever .

Behaviorally that doesn't scream of someone seeking attention, that's someone who hopes they are never found and they can live the rest of their lives in the shadows

Now they may seek to relive the experience, which is why they sometimes take trophies, but that is differnt from seeking notoriety.

Most murders are not committed for notoriety, it makes good literature, and a great story, but very few killers (i dare say any) kill simply to be linked to something .

As Ive stated before attention seeking is a secondary component of infamy, its the crime that matters most, they boast about it once the media feeds, their need for power .

May they revel in it privately?, possibly, but that is not attention or notoriety seeking.

Once you understand that , you can look at it realistically, .. Did this guy go kill 2 girls, just to be linked to a unsolved crime?

Why leave DNA? why hide them if you want to be known?, why not display their bodies for shock value?, why not communicate with police, families, the general public, online, anonymously ? ....As for attention seeking, Id have to say absolutely not

The presence of DNA (depending on the source) suggests a sexual motive for the crime , other possibilities, exist, but that seems to be the prevailing angle .

then why bother and stage a bizarre scene ?
there is a shock factor for those who will find it ? they will never forget it ( thats in some way the words of le )
the small town will never forget this shocking crime
isn't this a shot at infamy ?
WHY THIS LOCATION ? ITS NOT EXACTLY BY THE ROAD AND HIDDEN FROM THE WORLD KIND
he wants some NOTORIETY but without being too explicit as to risk being caught
sure I AM just inserting my own gut feelings and thoughts.. but we don't know much anyway concerning FACTS
I didnt say this was his main motive.. motives can be a number of things
it can be sexual , thrill kill /hate,rage/ and fame seeking all in one
fame might not be the right word tho..leaving a mark is more accurate

 

[TL4S]

I am not that knowledgeable about crime scene staging, etc., but in the April 2019 PC, DC told the killer that he thinks the killer still has a little bit of conscience left. Combining that statement with the fact that the bodies were "staged" makes me wonder if maybe the killer partially covered them.

The crime scene has been described by LE and RI as "odd" and "bizarre," with "signatures." I'm not sure that necessarily means the killer did these things for notoriety or shock value, but maybe as an unconscious act.

I also have to wonder if the moving and staging was not in part related to the idea of the killer possibly digitally documenting the crime scene to perhaps make it look sexual, more for the killer's purpose than to thwart the investigators. I don't know.

The location of the crime, while remote, does not seem like an overly well-hidden spot. I feel like he got them out of view to commit the crime, left them out of view, but wasn't betting on them never being found. It doesn't seem that remote. And if he did cover them partially, it wasn't completely because searchers were still able to spot them. JMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Ultimately I believe KK and TK, possibly one more will be charged in this case. KK, an admitted perv, and last person to have contacted victim via social media. The fact that LE knows two different people were using the AS profile on multiple devices. KK’s admission that TK is no longer speaking with him. KK lying about going to grand parents house during timeframe of murders. LE must be very careful before charging anyone. You only get one bite at the apple. Personally I believe KK is helping implicate TK, or is in the process of cutting a deal, but LE needs something concrete on TK before they will finalize it.

If LE indeed knows two different people were using the AS profile, I wonder why only KAK was charged with the 30 felonies?

 

[sandy_80]

my understanding is that ( killer who stages a scene ) wants it to be seen and discovered ..in contrast to a killer who leaves a victim as it is or buried or hidden..
was he only staging a scene to confuse the investigation or for shock or for his own visual sadistic pleasure..can be true all or separately

 

[StarryStarryNight]

My understanding is staging is an attempt to fool police and posing is done for the perverted satisfaction of the killer.
That being said I can see a situation where the killer poses the victims in a shocking way that pleases him but knowing that it will horrify most everybody else. His thinking might be that this posing will be reported by MSM and he will exult in it. A kind of anonymous fame for him.
If that’s the case in Delphi the killer must be very disappointed because LE has released nothing specific about the crime scene. Seems to me if fame and notoriety were his driving force he would have stoked things up himself by contacting LE, or sending letters to newspapers, or leaking details of his handiwork in some way. I don’t think anything like that has happened.

 

[HistoryNut]

I must admit that RL's build and voice looked and sounded like BG, but at his age, I highly doubt that he would be able to cross that bridge. I wonder if that's why the police eliminated him as a suspect. However, it still doesn't answer the question of why he tried to create a fake alibi.

 

[TL4S]

It's anyone's guess what the killer did when he moved and staged the girls, but it appears from the odd crime scene and signatures that the killer was deeply, subconsciously invested in the moment. That's jmo.

According to this link, showing remorse for the victim by covering them is a red flag for a staged crime scene.

Crime Scene Staging: The FBI, and the Wrongful Death Expert Witness - Official FBIretired Website | Investigators / Experts

 

[IQuestion]

I wish y'all would move over to the KK thread when discussing the "creation and premeditation of fake alibis." But since we are on the subject: True, RL did try to create an alibi even before interviewed by police. But, wait for it.....Didn't KK also try to create a fake alibi with a minor on "snpcht" by saying, "Yeah, we were supposed to meet but she didn't show up." ??? As a matter of fact, KK has so "many rehearsed" and over the top to reactions & excuses to things even before the investigator asks him the questions. Just an open question for this morning: What kind of deal would you offer to a self-acknowledged perv who set up two minor children to be sexually assaulted and slaughtered?

 

[M. Kay]

Questions about posing, staging, taking items: all could be part of revenge killing, The group, or 'gang' could have been known to RL without his knowing their intentions. His alibi attempt has been explained enough. I don't know more, yet all BG had to do was corner, then direct them 'down the hill' for an abduction that went wrong in panic. Perhaps they were never intending to kill them there. Or, take more time? Send a message?

 

[MistyWaters]

I wonder what is the reason for this wording in the search warrant “it also appears the bodies were moved and staged”

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/LOGAN-WARRANT-final_Redacted.pdf

Staging is not the same as posing, as starrystarrynight mentioned it’s an effort at deception, altering the crime scene in some way to fool investigators into believing no crime occurred. Was the staging an attempt to make it appear they accidentally fell? We don’t know but nothing in the SW indicates any fundamental weirdness or posing. LE announced a double homicide fairly quickly so any staging must’ve been unsuccessful. By the phrasing on the SW “it also appears” is not even conclusive that moving and staging the bodies took place.
JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I wish y'all would move over to the KK thread when discussing the "creation and premeditation of fake alibis." But since we are on the subject: True, RL did try to create an alibi even before interviewed by police. But, wait for it.....Didn't KK also try to create a fake alibi with a minor on "snpcht" by saying, "Yeah, we were supposed to meet but she didn't show up." ??? As a matter of fact, KK has so "many rehearsed" and over the top to reactions & excuses to things even before the investigator asks him the questions. Just an open question for this morning: What kind of deal would you offer to a self-acknowledged perv who set up two minor children to be sexually assaulted and slaughtered?

Great post.

Why did BG choose the area of the Monon High Bridge (MHB) to carry out his terrible fantasy?

Over many months I researched murders in rural areas across a bunch of states, mainly IN and surrounding states but also a handful of cases further afield. FBI stats (ca. 2018/2019) show there have been 15 abductions of pairs of juveniles by strangers across the entire country since 1974. So that's 30 juveniles, not all were murdered.

I tried to find unsolved cases where one person or a pair were abducted and murdered in rural areas, within and bordering IN. Bottom line is this case is kind of a 'one-of-one' case, I couldn't find even one case that came close to it regarding circumstances, age(s) of victim(s), the rural trail angle, etc.

If BG was willing to make such an extra effort to do what he did that day, vs. known cases where killers make much less of an effort to kill, then does it stand to reason this individual made a huge effort before he went to the Monon Trail and the MHB that day?

JMO

 

[TL4S]

Great post.

Why did BG choose the area of the Monon High Bridge (MHB) to carry out his terrible fantasy?

Over many months I researched murders in rural areas across a bunch of states, mainly IN and surrounding states but also a handful of cases further afield. FBI stats (ca. 2018/2019) show there have been 15 abductions of pairs of juveniles by strangers across the entire country since 1974. So that's 30 juveniles, not all were murdered.

I tried to find unsolved cases where one person or a pair were abducted and murdered in rural areas, within and bordering IN. Bottom line is this case is kind of a 'one-of-one' case, I couldn't find even one case that came close to it regarding circumstances, age(s) of victim(s), the rural trail angle, etc.

If BG was willing to make such an extra effort to do what he did that day, vs. known cases where killers make much less of an effort to kill, then does it stand to reason this individual made a huge effort before he went to the Monon Trail and the MHB that day?

JMO

It does appear that a user of a_shots made an effort to groom L in the days/weeks before the murders. Effort was also made by that same user to communicate with L and her friends after the murders. That doesn't answer the question about why the MHB in particular, but an effort to communicate in a likely criminal fashion with one of the victims prior to the crime is suspicious. IMO.

 

[Diddian]

I must admit that RL's build and voice looked and sounded like BG, but at his age, I highly doubt that he would be able to cross that bridge. I wonder if that's why the police eliminated him as a suspect. However, it still doesn't answer the question of why he tried to create a fake alibi.

I know several people in their mid-70’s who frequently downhill ski in winter and hike difficult trails in our national forests and parks In the summer. My own father was still hiking on mountains in his early 80’s -despite painful arthritis in his knees and hips - hunting for elk until weeks before he died (he suffered a heart attack shortly after being given morphine to relieve pain from pneumonia that had developed from a cold and he had a DNR order).

Whether a person in their mid-70’s could comfortably manage that bridge would likely depend upon how active they were generally.

 

[minazoe]

BG was the boss of that bridge when he walked across that day...he also had tiny little feet maybe like a size 8 ...you can tell ..remember they have some footprint evidence. they have a lot to go on..

Convicted attempted murderer JBC has the same little feet and wears the same little rounded toe boots. He told the judge he was definitely going to murder his victim, he was in the process, all in under 30 minutes time, this includes a intermission with the police at the door.

where is TK right now? why is he free? who are the killers? they have to prove it.

I don't find it a stretch that JBC would be party to collecting and subscribing to some kind of network like this given his
proclivities..I think KAK is the keyhole...but doesnt match the foot prints..

so a sexual predator was talking to and had a meet up scheduled with the dead girl the day she died yet he doesn't fit the evidence..

We are missing something..they obviously didn't find a single thing to tie RL , not footprints, dna, or any materials that would suggest he could be a predator.

if he saw something...shame on him..but he should RIP , hopefully we will know someday soon. mOO

 

[AC4RD]

If LE indeed knows two different people were using the AS profile, I wonder why only KAK was charged with the 30 felonies?

That's a very good question. My own guess--completely untainted by any biit of relevant education, training, or experience--is that maybe LE said two people were involved in using the AS profile, attempting to get KAK to say "No, you're wrong, only I had access to that account."

If they could get him to say that, then later at trial KAK's defense attorney couldn't raise the "it was some other dude" defense about the AS catfishing. KAK would have locked the AS actions firmly on himself, if they could have gotten him to bite on that bait.

I thought this before, when the interrogator said (paraphrased) "We can tell from the writing style that two people used that account." That struck me as very hard to believe--online chat being that distinctive? So distinctive that you rule out it being one person writing in various voices or personas or moods?

That's tough enough with Shakespeare--thousands of lines in 36 plays and 150+ sonnets and people have been arguing for 200 years about whether this scene sounds like Kyd or Bacon, whether that sonnet sounds like Jonson or Raleigh. Can we really think some ungrammatical online chats can be definitively sorted into Authors A and B? Like saying THIS text message came from Bobby and THIS one came from Win-Fu? Seems very hard to believe, just MHO.

Remember that LE isn't obligated to be truthful when interrogating suspects. To me, the most likely scenario is that LE was floating the "two different AS profile users" to lock KAK into a firm statement that he was responsible for all the messages. Just MHO, as always.

 

[MistyWaters]

That's a very good question. My own guess--completely untainted by any biit of relevant education, training, or experience--is that maybe LE said two people were involved in using the AS profile, attempting to get KAK to say "No, you're wrong, only I had access to that account."

If they could get him to say that, then later at trial KAK's defense attorney couldn't raise the "it was some other dude" defense about the AS catfishing. KAK would have locked the AS actions firmly on himself, if they could have gotten him to bite on that bait.

I thought this before, when the interrogator said (paraphrased) "We can tell from the writing style that two people used that account." That struck me as very hard to believe--online chat being that distinctive? So distinctive that you rule out it being one person writing in various voices or personas or moods?

That's tough enough with Shakespeare--thousands of lines in 36 plays and 150+ sonnets and people have been arguing for 200 years about whether this scene sounds like Kyd or Bacon, whether that sonnet sounds like Jonson or Raleigh. Can we really think some ungrammatical online chats can be definitively sorted into Authors A and B? Like saying THIS text message came from Bobby and THIS one came from Win-Fu? Seems very hard to believe, just MHO.

Remember that LE isn't obligated to be truthful when interrogating suspects. To me, the most likely scenario is that LE was floating the "two different AS profile users" to lock KAK into a firm statement that he was responsible for all the messages. Just MHO, as always.

Very good answer! This is what I think too. Surely everyone knows that LE is legally allowed to lie during interrogations, particularly to gain confessions.

 

[IQuestion]

Perhaps the delay is this: "There are times when police want access to social media posts that have been deleted by the provider or the user. A few platforms like Instagram and WhatsApp do not back up or save that information. Once it is gone, it is really gone."
On other platforms (paraphrasing) EVEN WITH THE USER'S PERMISSION it can take months or even years for the companies to grant police access.

Here is why gaining access to social media accounts is tough for police

Gaining access to a social media account often times requires a subpoena or court order, and even then it is not guaranteed the social media company will comply.

www.wishtv.com

Hmmm, I'm thinking somebody sitting in jail is going to be sitting there for a long, long time. This hi-tech stuff isn't high speed when it comes to legal requests. So ultimately who gives permission anyway ...the purchaser of the phone, the adult parent who pays the bill or the kid who lies about their age to get onto various sites?
Side note. When I was growing up "catfish" was an ugly thing that dwelled in dark murky water. What's old is new again.