Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[Arkay]

Either Valentine was a day when someone dumped him, and it became a “gift to all women"

Sorry not intending to stereotype in a derogatory way, that style of casual everyday clothing is absolutely common amongst young and old males in rural areas where I live too. I was really trying to avoid the term “grandpa” clothing which has been said here many times. Regardless if BG was attempting to dye his hair and wear makeup to pass himself off as the person in the Anthony Shots pic, he obviously overlooked a very important detail of similar clothing attire. JMO

@Charlot123 IMO Valentine's Day may in fact be a day that was painful to him, if he was dumped as you suggest, or maybe he was an incel type, and wanted to "have" a female for himself on Valentine's Day.

OR it could be a very easy way to entice a young girl to meet that day if they've had previous internet contact. If LG was entranced by the prospect of meeting Anthony_shots, and the person behind that screen name promised to give her a Valentine's Day present, that would be enticing to a teenager. I've taught 13 and 14 year old girls for 25 years, and there is definitely an awareness at that age of who does or doesn't have a boyfriend or a gift for Valentine's.

@MistyWaters The real person in the fake Anthony_shots account, the cop/model in the pictures, lives in Alaska, so maybe he is rural, too. But a completely different aesthetic in clothing and style than BG. I agree that the clothing he's wearing looks NOTHING like the real man in the photos, but IMO absolutely no amount of makeup or hair dye could make BG resemble the young, handsome, ripped model in the pictures. Which IMO may be what led Libby to start taping him as he approached---she knew immediately this guy was not whom she excitedly anticipated meeting.

@Kell1 just want to say I admire how clearly your experience informs your posts. I learn a lot from them.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Surely if they have the perps DNA anyone LE has put forth as a POI would have been cleared! I was hopeful there was DNA, but I really don’t think there is moo

They have DNA. It has been stated more than once.
The question is - where did they find it?
The Crime Scene starts at the bridge and extends all of the way to the place that the bodies were found.
Now- here is something that I have kicked around. This is my own "possible theory" and may not be accurate:
What if either KAK or his relative had DNA found on the bridge, on the trail, etc... but they could not get a good sample where the bodies were located?
What if the DNA there was degraded by the fact that there was SO MUCH DNA from the girls themselves OR because of some type of potential cleaning agent being used?

Maybe, just maybe LE knows that KAK was full of it when he told them he had no recollection of ever being near MHB , but they can't place him (or the other) with the bodies?

AMOO JMO MOO

 

[IQuestion]

Just MHO, but it seems very unlikely to me. JTH was driven by sociopolitical ideology--he had a profound dislike of the right wing of American politics, and his personal disasters (iMO) caused him to lose stability, leading to the violent assault with weapons. He was, IMO, an ideological criminal.

The murders of Libby and Abby seem to me to be the acts of a sexual criminal, someone in the grip of a toxic paraphilia. It's true one person could have acted on two very different derangements, but it seems very unlikely--again, just MHO.

Another opinion if I may: there's a lot of mention lately of various persons of interest. Why not tell us who your POI is? Initials are required of course, so you might also add a bit of identifying description ("the lefthanded dog groomer who painted her house bright green after the murders" or whatever). I'd be interested in knowing who all the POIs are, for our group!

Great question!!! Even though I think I just got "pigeon holed" as a housewife-type jurist (would love to argue that one someday lol.....it's all good my fellow WS'ers) But after seeing a video of KK dancing on a stage, surprisingly light on his feet, a lot slimmer and his tendency to "not admit anything until LE proves they have the evidence", combined with the "bridge walker-step-drag" walk of the man on the bridge. (It looked like someone having hip issue, and lo and behold...it turns out it may be a circulation issue affecting his foot, TK....)
KK is my "High tec troller" and senior (TK) is the "guy who pulls the trigger." It wouldn't be the first time we have seen really bad perps work in concert. KK already related a time he had an underage female in our home and Papa Bear.....oh well you know the rest of what he did. So KK knew his Dad did something illegal then, but he didn't say anything about it for 5 years. Yep, they are my #1 Draft pics...so to speak.
PS...If anybody ever accuses me of planning a crime via my computer, I'm blaming it all on you guys for making me want to know more about these two and spending hours and hours reading.

 

[Ravenmoon]

KAK appears to me to be a pathological liar.
This begins with his peers as far back as middle school, even his own step brother.
They have made statements about KAK pretending to be on tour with popular musicians, having lots of money , sports cars, and of course the biggest of all lies his creation of Anthony Shots.

In the case of how best to deal with these people, it seems like getting angry is one of the worst ways to communicate- after all it seems like these people believe their lies (to a degree) in order to continue making up more stories.

They do not seem to be easy to crack, they deny evidence that is in front of them OR they deflect by pointing us in a whole different direction. This sounds familiar to me with the way KAK talks ...and talks.... and talks.

LE knows who is behind this. No one can tell me different. They know.
Why son't we have that information right now?
Because someone is holding back, someone is lying and they are so close- but to indulge us with anymore information would be destructive to the case they are building. They get ONE chance to prove their case.

If they really just wanted to have a scapegoat to calm everyone down, they could have nailed it on people that have died since the crime... or chosen someone based on the court of public opinion. Let's be glad this isn't how they have handled it.

They continue to take DNA samples from people.. why would they do this if there was nothing to compare it to?

AMOO

 

[IQuestion]

RAVENMOON Maybe all it not lost. (Keeping my fingers crossed on this one.) As you said, "only one chance to prove their case" but I think LE has more than one chance at this guy (these guys.). Right now KK is only on charges related to internet....nothing face-to-face, yet. But if LE can just find one person who met up with him after being contacted by someone posing as A-shots or EmAn I think a pattern will have been established. The end game for these online predators is to gain enough trust to get the victim to meet with them. No matter what, KK is going to be spending a lot a time away from the life he used to have.

 

[HistoryNut]

They have DNA. It has been stated more than once.
The question is - where did they find it?
The Crime Scene starts at the bridge and extends all of the way to the place that the bodies were found.
Now- here is something that I have kicked around. This is my own "possible theory" and may not be accurate:
What if either KAK or his relative had DNA found on the bridge, on the trail, etc... but they could not get a good sample where the bodies were located?
What if the DNA there was degraded by the fact that there was SO MUCH DNA from the girls themselves OR because of some type of potential cleaning agent being used?

Maybe, just maybe LE knows that KAK was full of it when he told them he had no recollection of ever being near MHB , but they can't place him (or the other) with the bodies?

AMOO JMO MOO

I agree. I think he was there which is why he was so concerned about how long DNA lasts.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

KAK’s search warrant was executed on 2/25/17. RL’s was executed on 3/17/17.

Furthermore, I haven’t seen anything to suggest LE thought RL “sent them to someone who might be interested in such a thing”. They thought souvenirs might have been taken, as a memento or to memorialize it. They included boilerplate language for photographs and things that can store photos, as a result.

It’s quite a stretch to think RL somehow knew KAK, killed two girls, took photos of the crime scene, and then sent those photos to KAK for some reason… while also leaving the girls on his property.

JMO

But it’s not a stretch, IMO, that RL could’ve been a part of this possible pedo ring.
IF this possibility is in fact true, we would probably not know about this until Abby & Libby’s case goes to trial. Especially since LE is keeping nearly everything about this case close to the vest.

YMMV.

 

[mrtnira]

I've personally surrendered trying to make assessments in many of these cases. I track some of these cases out of interest, and hope for resolution, but I don't think an accurate understanding is discernible right now.

Discussion is useful to develop analytical models, theories, and generally discuss how crimes are committed, how people follow patterns, etc. That is always useful. But, until the police release more information, a lot of us can't go any further on this.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

True. But the question remains: Why then was LE never able to point to RL as playing a role in the crime, even as a peripheral accomplice in some sense?

Maybe RL turned state’s witness? Or was a confidential informant of some sort.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Charlot123]

That is the correct interpretation of the video and the suspect. It is by far the greatest piece of evidence in the case, far beyond any of the recent gibberish. Bridge Guy is a young guy with a thick mop of brown hair and bangs covering his forehead. The part is evident at the crown. The hoodie is hanging behind his shoulders.

I concede that I argued otherwise several years ago, including here. I was convinced it was not hair only. Fortunately I wised up severely and defaulted to big picture realities. Distortion can only add. It does not subtract. If one version looks obvious as a hat and another version obvious as hair only, then the only reliable one is hair only. Distortion added the impression of a hat that was not there.

One or both of the Klines would have been arrested long ago, if not for presence of that video. Law enforcement would have been convinced that all the social media stuff had to link to guilt. Instead I have no idea how anyone can ignore that all of the second opinion and outside review stuff happened long after the Klines were a known quantity. So not only was Delphi not laser focusing on the Klines but obviously the outside review agency didn't suggest in that direction either. Otherwise Delphi never releases and promotes a sketch of a wavy haired young guy who looks nothing like either Kline. The Klines stuff was well known when Robert Ives was still involved, the same Robert Ives who emphasized to a high profile podcast series that he never came close to thinking it was more likely than not that a particular person he was aware of had committed the crime.

Anyone would be convicted in this case. That is obvious by the immediate avalanche of 99% certainty toward any name that surfaces, from Daniel Nations onward. Juries are comprised of housewife types who always think the boyfriend or spouse is guilty. That type is incredibly brainwashed by law enforcement and can't imagine that side ever misdirecting, concealing, or telling blatant falsehoods. I am convinced that Delphi now wants to get this over with. Mike Patty twice begged for an arrest during the HLN special. "They owe me an arrest." Not much later the height/weight was removed. We didn't mean that anyway. What are the odds it would have been removed if a perfect match to Tony Kline?

Law enforcement doesn't have direct or solid evidence against anyone. I think they'll soon set that aside and allow their best semblance of Leah Askey to get up there and make things up day after day, using the social media stuff as stickum.

I still see a cap, but it may not matter. If BG wore a scarf, he could very well be bald, and wear a wig.

 

[Charlot123]

But it’s not a stretch, IMO, that RL could’ve been a part of this possible pedo ring.
IF this possibility is in fact true, we would probably not know about this until Abby & Libby’s case goes to trial. Especially since LE is keeping nearly everything about this case close to the vest.

YMMV.

I personally feel that RL is more of a regular petty criminal than a pedo criminal. He probably saw something, but did not spill his beans. Either because the people he saw were bigger criminals, or, perhaps, like any person not quite on the right side of law, RL despised LE and would never tell them anything.

 

[ChuckInHouston]

I personally think they wasted too much time looking at RL. he only tried to create and alibi because he was on parole, and was not supposed to be driving. They arrested him for parole violations. It would have been really stupid to leave two bodies on your land, if you did the crime. I have seen nothing in RL's history to suggest he would commit this kind of crime. I believe him being an accomplice to someone else is also highly unlikely.

 

[HistoryNut]

I personally think they wasted too much time looking at RL. he only tried to create and alibi because he was on parole, and was not supposed to be driving. They arrested him for parole violations. It would have been really stupid to leave two bodies on your land, if you did the crime. I have seen nothing in RL's history to suggest he would commit this kind of crime. I believe him being an accomplice to someone else is also highly unlikely.

I have a different take on RL. Not one, but 15 tipsters identified him as BG. Two of his ex-girlfriends said he was violent. The FBI agent believed that he was the killer because of his build and voice, plus he made up a phony alibi. He had a history of reckless criminal behavior and spent time in prison. I'm not saying he was the killer, but IMO, he knew far more than what he said. I only hope that we'll know what really happened sometime soon.

 

[JnRyan]

At this point, over 5 years later, I believe trying to match up the clothing is a lost cause. I can't tell what kind of shoes the killer is wearing. I can't even tell if that is his hair, a hat or if he has a hood from a hoodie pulled up. Blue jeans are too generic. That blue jacket is the only thing I could focus on. And with only 2-3 months of cool weather he could have burned, buried or threw that out and wore another jacket. And if any of the clothing had blood on it then it is very likely gone. I really didn't pay attention to what color jacket my co-workers wore even if they had only one so if they quit wearing one it wouldn't have mattered to me. I don't believe those close to the killer - IF there is really anyone close to him - are missing seeing him in that jacket. At this point the video comes down to his face (if you can make a comparison with a known acquaintance) and how he walks and how he speaks.

I don't have much faith in the DNA since LE doesn't know if they have the killer's DNA. A partial DNA? A mixed sample with over 3 profiles and the labs can't isolate it with current technology? I hope an advancement in DNA technology comes along and cracks that part of it. They had KAK in 2017, arrested him in 2020 and asked the public for info 6 months ago. I don't believe the KAK saga is going anywhere now.

 

[Vern]

I have a different take on RL. Not one, but 15 tipsters identified him as BG. Two of his ex-girlfriends said he was violent. The FBI agent believed that he was the killer because of his build and voice, plus he made up a phony alibi. He had a history of reckless criminal behavior and spent time in prison. I'm not saying he was the killer, but IMO, he knew far more than what he said. I only hope that we'll know what really happened sometime soon.

After he did his interview and showed the crime scene on TV ... where they also talked him in to saying, "down the hill". Of course a tonne of calls about him followed, I'm just not sure they would have occured without that media interview. Just look back at the threads here to see a huge volume of posters insisting he must be BG after that interview.

 

[carbuff]

So kak was searching "how long dna lasts"?I don't believe le found his dna at the crime scene that i'm aware of at least.It makes me wonder why.I also don't think 2012 or 2017 are connected,they may have factors that are similar but that's just my opinion.

This really jumped out at me as an unusual thing to say. It seems like if he was indeed the killer, it's something he would have researched BEFORE he committed the crime. It's like he suddenly realized that he had some connection to the murders that was going to drag him in. Maybe even that somebody set him up to take the fall.

I dunno...

 

[carbuff]

Re: who is our POI?

Chadwell.

 

[Schatz]

Re: who is our POI?

Chadwell.

 

[Charlot123]

And this is why I have a problem with discussing pois. I am not “Chadwell team”.

But, say, one inhabitant reminds me of BG, and he could 100% be at MHB without raising any questions, plus, if checked, has an alibi. But…the motive? Do I know anything about the man indicating that he is into hebecides? That he is so psychotic? (Most people would probably vomit at the though of killing two adolescents, not enjoy it.) So basically, all that I have against the person is that he lives nearby. The rest is nonsense, my fantasy.

I think the people of Delphi know more, but they might be too scared to discuss it. LE has not produced, why, remains to be seen. Our pois are really, tied to the case by proximity. Or because we want “him” to be caught.

 

[PnzrIVausf.G]

Maybe even that somebody set him up to take the fall.

I dunno...

Like staging bodies?