Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[Arkay]

But the chances of these poor girls encountering so much evil from multiple sources seems astronomical.

It does seem far-fetched, to have multiple encounters that day with several different sources of evil, and which ultimately culminated in their murders.

Still, whatever and whomever they did in fact encounter was evil enough.

Unfortunately.

 

[m00c0w]

You are correct about the dates. Thanks. Have you read the RL search warrant? It is clearly geared towards the things I mentioned. It is also evident that they think the killer may well have taken pictures of the scene, not just the clothing souvenirs.

Also the KAK interviewer specifically asked him if he knew RL and followed up with "interesting" when he denied it.

Lastly, I said nothing about RL killing the girls. My thoughts may not fit your narrative, but that doesn't mean its "quite a stretch". It's important to be open to all possible scenarios, and what I posted is entirely plausible given what we now know about the crime.

Peace

My point regarding souvenirs was that they were specifically looking for something the killer would have done to memorialize the killing, for the killer (I was including photos in this; sorry it wasn't clear). They never implied that the killer would have given away anything to anyone, or shared anything with anyone else.

It is possible that RL could have shared photos he took of a pretty messed up crime scene with some random person we have no evidence of him ever interacting with, but I'm not sure about it being entirely plausible... just my opinion, of course.

I am slightly confused, though. If you are simply stating that maybe RL took photos of the crime scene, how does that fit in with sharing them with KAK? It may have made some sense with the KAK warrant being after RL, but that's not what happened. If they discovered RL through KAK, that most likely would have been in the warrant because that would have been pretty damning information. So what is your actual thought?

It's easy to imagine them coming across each other online if they had similar "interests". I have no idea if they did, but I am sure KAK had relationships with people from all walks of life, all over the world given his "line of work".

Again, I have no idea if they are connected, but I believe LE thought they might be given the wording of RLs search warrant.

"Know what your kids are doing online".

JMO, of course.

What I meant is that RL didn't really seem like the kind of person to be on the internet, much less to meet people, and he was legally prohibited from driving anywhere... so that would make it hard to meet someone like KAK. I would find it more likely that he and TK knew each other somehow, but there's nothing that I've seen that even hints at them knowing each other. I'm still confused as to where you think LE is indicating they might have known each other based on the search warrant. Can you cite a specific section?

 

[Detective Willy]

I think this crime would have been solved in the first 6 months if it was committed by RL.

So many people saying he looked like BG and the bodies were found on his property.

IMO he would have been investigated thoroughly by multiple LE agencies and they could not find a shred of evidence of his involvement.

 

[m00c0w]

New GH video; he discusses the probable cause. It's one of his good ones, pretty easy to listen to. At the 27mm, he talks about the crime scene/bodies being moved.

Thanks for this! Very thorough examination. (I'm also glad it seems like GH did not go down the rabbit hole of "staged" vs "posed".)

 

[newredtabby]

My point regarding souvenirs was that they were specifically looking for something the killer would have done to memorialize the killing, for the killer (I was including photos in this; sorry it wasn't clear). They never implied that the killer would have given away anything to anyone, or shared anything with anyone else.

It is possible that RL could have shared photos he took of a pretty messed up crime scene with some random person we have no evidence of him ever interacting with, but I'm not sure about it being entirely plausible... just my opinion, of course.

I am slightly confused, though. If you are simply stating that maybe RL took photos of the crime scene, how does that fit in with sharing them with KAK? It may have made some sense with the KAK warrant being after RL, but that's not what happened. If they discovered RL through KAK, that most likely would have been in the warrant because that would have been pretty damning information. So what is your actual thought?


What I meant is that RL didn't really seem like the kind of person to be on the internet, much less to meet people, and he was legally prohibited from driving anywhere... so that would make it hard to meet someone like KAK. I would find it more likely that he and TK knew each other somehow, but there's nothing that I've seen that even hints at them knowing each other. I'm still confused as to where you think LE is indicating they might have known each other based on the search warrant. Can you cite a specific section?

I did not say, and am not saying that LE thought they necessarily knew each other. The warrant states that RL's phone was near the crime scene THE NIGHT OF THE MURDERS doing "something". And the warrant specifically mentioning that this type of killer often memorializing the crime in photos, leads me to believe they thought what he was doing was exactly that.

If he was at the crime scene for 3 hours ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDERS sending and receiving texts on his phone, what would he have been sending and receiving, and to whom? That's my train of thought.

Again, I have no idea if there is a connection to KAK, but I believe LE thought there might be. And we know for sure that IF he was sending these pics to someone, KAK is the perfect person who would want to receive them.

That's my logic, and that's why I believe it is plausible. Plausible only means you can envision a way something could happen given what you know. It doesn't mean it is certain or even probable.

JMO

 

[Facinatingtimes]

View attachment 344982
le statement regarding the latest leak

I only started listening to the Murder Sheet when the KAK interview hit. The hosts seem like genuinely good people who are conscious of fact and sensitivity (at least that is my take on them). I wonder how they feel about this statement and Kelsi’s comments…

 

[m00c0w]

I did not say, and am not saying that LE thought they necessarily knew each other.

Again, I have no idea if there is a connection to KAK, but I believe LE thought there might be.

(snipped for conciseness by me)

See, this is where I'm getting confused. You're saying you're not saying LE might have thought they knew each other, just that you think LE thought they might know each other?

As far as him being "at the crime scene" for three hours, they only have an approximate location. He may have been helping with the search; he may have been somewhere else on his property altogether. Historical cell tower records are not very accurate with regards to location, which is why they said "in the proximity of" instead of at the site, or a certain distance away from the site. I strongly believe that is just wordsmithing to make the case for the warrant.

JMO

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Recently, late at night, I overheard a domestic situation between a man and woman that very quickly escalated from a verbal attack on each other, to an act of violence committed on the woman.

I couldn't see their faces, only their silhouettes as it was dark out...but I could hear them and most of what they were saying.

I called 911.

I told the police what I heard and gave them the direction I could see they were headed to as they walked.

Police vehicles showed up quickly and they located the couple within minutes.

Afterwards, it really reminded me about just how brave Libby was that day.

In an instant where you have such an unsettled and panicked feeling it takes true instinct and quick thinking to secretly video the situation.

All I could think to do in that moment was call 911.

I had no idea it was going to turn from an arguement to violence, and it did...so fast....

After following this case (and so many others) you'd think I'd remember to video what I could see and hear (in case it could later be used in a courtroom!)

Libby's impulse to video BG continues to amaze me.

JMO

 

[newredtabby]

(snipped for conciseness by me)

See, this is where I'm getting confused. You're saying you're not saying LE might have thought they knew each other, just that you think LE thought they might know each other?

As far as him being "at the crime scene" for three hours, they only have an approximate location. He may have been helping with the search; he may have been somewhere else on his property altogether. Historical cell tower records are not very accurate with regards to location, which is why they said "in the proximity of" instead of at the site, or a certain distance away from the site. I strongly believe that is just wordsmithing to make the case for the warrant.

JMO

<modsnip> I am simply using what we now know to show there could be a plausible connection that LE was exploring between RL and the murders. Based on the search warrant, the FBI special agent was accusing RL of the entire crime, RL being BG, committing the murders, taking the "souvenirs" and all. I don't, personally, think that makes sense, but I DO think there could be other connections to RL. There are just too many things we now know that makes RLs behavior really sketchy.

BTW, if RL was helping with the search that night or was somewhere else on his property, then he is caught in another lie. RL stated in an interview that the night of the murders he was in his home the entire time working on his tropical fish aquarium, so....

 

[FrostedGlass]

In GH video, he says the redacted word of the missing clothing was 'undergarments'. He said it was actually 2 items and it was exactly what you would think but they wanted it redacted. [26mm]

That brought to mind the undergarments found under the bridge. Is it possible that the FBI forgot about those or are we talking about 2 sets of UGs.

 

[m00c0w]

If he was helping with the search that night or somewhere else, then he is caught in another lie. RL stated in an interview that the night of the murders he was at his home the entire time working on his tropical fish aquarium.

It's also possible he was at home the entire time working on his tropical fish aquarium. I mean, I highly doubt he was out taking photos of the crime scene for two hours to send over to KAK while people were out searching for the girls all over his property with his permission.

They said it was "likely" that he was outside of the house, "in the proximity" of the crime scene. They're hedging bets and wordsmithing to get the warrant. GH even makes these exact same points in the video FrostedGlass posted. Basically identical to what I'm saying.

 

[m00c0w]

<modsnip> I am simply using what we now know to show there could be a plausible connection that LE was exploring between RL and the murders. Based on the search warrant, the FBI special agent was accusing RL of the entire crime, RL being BG, committing the murders, taking the "souvenirs" and all. I don't, personally, think that makes sense, but I DO think there could be other connections to RL. There are just too many things we now know that makes RLs behavior really sketchy.

The main point of confusion is not about RL to the murders... that is clear as day. It's the belief that LE thinks there is a connection between RL and KAK based on the search warrant. You've said it multiple times now.

"Again, I have no idea if there is a connection to KAK, but I believe LE thought there might be."

 

[AC4RD]

So IOW, just as another example if the initial CS investigators state the victim didn't appear to struggle/fight AND the ME later finds tissue under the victim's fingernails can one state there was 'no visible sign of a struggle'?

In my example, is such a statement in an affidavit really truthful?

Good point ... and I don't have even a guess about that. That example didn't occur to me. But it should have, obviously.

There are a lot of variables--how you interpret "visible" and when the judgement on visibility is made and what the writer intends to convey and whether he or she is shading it one way or the other for some reason ... and it may be that one person's "visible" isn't the same as someone else's even apart from whatever other factors affect it. (That long sentence basically restates "I don't have even a guess.") Some of our members with law or legal experience may be able to tell both of us.

 

[sandy_80]

Good point ... and I don't have even a guess about that. That example didn't occur to me. But it should have, obviously.

There are a lot of variables--how you interpret "visible" and when the judgement on visibility is made and what the writer intends to convey and whether he or she is shading it one way or the other for some reason ... and it may be that one person's "visible" isn't the same as someone else's even apart from whatever other factors affect it. (That long sentence basically restates "I don't have even a guess.") Some of our members with law or legal experience may be able to tell both of us.

SOMEBODY suggested the inclusion of no visible signs of struggle is to indicate the killer wouldn't have scratches or signs on him ?

 

[Diddian]

KAK was talking to Libby.
He has said so.
He said Libby was annoying , and claims that he blocked her. ( Doubtful, unlikely , basically ridiculous)
He continued to message Libby after her death despite having the knowledge that she was gone.


MOO

EBM sp

I can’t remember from the transcript of LE’s interview with KAK, but did he admit to messaging LG after she was gone?

Or, is it possible he’d provided access to the a_shots account to another person or persons, one of whom continued to message LG after she was gone Because THAT person was unaware she was gone?

 

[cujenn81]

Out of curiosity, I reread the podcast transcriptions I posted (which can easily be found in the media thread) many moons ago and found the following information/statements particularly interesting in light of recent developments —

More than 20 people who were contacted by LE in connection to this case were arrested on unrelated charges.

70 subpoenas and 12 search warrants (that we know of) were executed in the months following the crime. The two executed at Ron Logan’s property, as well as the one on Bicycle Bridge Road about 5 miles away, have already been mentioned. On February 25, another search warrant was executed at a residence on Canal Street in Peru, IN (30 miles away). LE said the persons at this particular residence were in no way connected to Libby and Abby.

Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said the property owner has “been covered” by the investigators.

2019 Press Conference
“During the course of this investigation, we have concluded the first sketch released will become secondary. As of today, the result of new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe that the sketch -- which you will see shortly -- is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls. We also believe this person is from Delphi, currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis, or works here. We believe this person is currently between the age range of 18-40 but might appear younger than his true age."

LE later clarified that the new sketch -- who is the man on the bridge -- is not the same person as the initial sketch. The person in the first sketch might not even exist as depicted. It might be a fabrication based on several combined and fading memories.

“To the murderer, I believe you have just a little bit of a conscience left, and I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not--is not what they're experiencing today."

April 22, 2019
PRESS RELEASE: "New Face of the Delphi Murder Suspect"

The official release contradicted Carter in two minor ways --

1. The release described the suspect as someone in their mid-20s to mid-30s; Carter described him between the ages of 18 and 40 but may appear younger.

2. The release said "We have a witness. You made mistakes. We are coming for you, and there's no place for a heartless coward like you to hide that gets his thrill from killing little girls." ; Carter never mentioned the mistakes or the witness.

The caption displayed by the new sketch on the official press release: “This is the face of the suspect that goes with the body on the video on Liberty German's phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered."

Sgt. Robert Ives:
“Well, human nature being what it is, it’s hard for me to believe anybody could do something so bizarre and horrible and not feel compelled to tell somebody about it.”

In January 2019, Sheriff Tobe Lazenby stated that further evidence had been sent to the FBI at the end of 2018 and they were conducting DNA testing research. This could indicate that new methods of extraction, such as the M-Vac system or the new method for extracting DNA from a rootless hair are being used.

Sgt. Kim Riley:
“The way the girls were found, how they were found, what had happened to them. It was just a lot of things were going through their minds and just trying to figure out the crime scene. Is it here? Is it there? How much of a crime scene do we have here? And that was one of the questions that was being discussed too, ya know. How big of a crime scene do we got? What are we dealing with? How much evidence do we have here to deal with?”

“I mean, if you’ve never been there, you gotta remember we’re in Indiana—we’re in central Indiana—and the ravines are not deep here, but we do have ravines, small hills, and there was basically a creek that ran through there—real close to the crime scene. It was down in the lower gully—I guess you’d call it—where the bodies were found. There was two hills on each side and plus one on the side of the—on the side of the creek. So, you know, trying to figure out where did they come from, how did they get here, which way did the suspect, or suspects, go. Uh, those are all things they’re trying to figure out to see how large of a crime scene they gotta make.”

DTH: And the crime scene begins on the bridge?

Sgt. Kim Riley:
“Well, the crime scene originally started where we found the bodies because that was all the crime scene we knew at that point and time. As we found evidence, looked into things and found the phone, that’s when we actually realized that the crime scene did start at the bridge. So, now we have to back up even more to bring that bridge into—into the crime scene. So, now we’ve got it—we’re moving the crime scene a third of an acre. Now we’re talking—‘cause it’s—walking, it’s about a quarter of a mile from where the bodies were found to where the video was taken.”

“We had, basically, to turn every leaf over from the crime scene all the way up the whole thing. And I don’t mean we turned every one, but I mean—it was just that dramatic of a crime scene. That’s what took so long.”

Superintendent Doug Carter:
“That was a bit of a challenge—to take a step back from this. We brought in, I think maybe five or six crime scene technicians. And our job at that point was to build a fence around them—not a literal one, one figuratively—and do everything we need to do to support them. The crime scene was very complicated.”

DTH: Compared to other investigations you do...

Superintendent Doug Carter:
“Well, I think it’s become commonly known that it includes, um, the Monon High Bridge. Um, it includes the-the-the trailhead. We’ve been there—it’s a cool little bridge to sit on and reflect, if you haven’t been there.”

“So, everywhere from the trailhead on. That’s all I can say about the crime scene.”

DTH:
Obviously, without telling us the parts that you don’t want to release, can you tell us what that’s like to watch that video?

Sgt. Kim Riley:
“It was scary. Uh, I guess would be one way to put it. Just [pause] seeing, um, you know—seeing, just seeing the feelings that were going through the girls at the time. I’m not going to say which one, in particular. But, just knowing that—I, you know, just knowing what they knew is—is just, is just frightening for, uh, a 13- or 14-year old girl to know.”

Robert Ives:
“All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene, and it’s probably not what you would imagine. What people will think I’m talking about... it’s probably not. And so, because of unique circumstances — which all unique circumstances of a crime are a sort of signature — you think, well this unusual fact might lead to somebody or that unusual fact might lead to somebody, and I wish I could tell you. But, again, that’s up to the state police.”

DTH: Was there a signature in this crime? Like, like when you characterize something as a signature. Like without telling us what it is.

Robert Ives:
“I would say there were two or three things. Ah, I’d say at least three.”

“People ask me do I think it will be solved and I do think it will be solved — because it’s so odd and so unusual, and people are so compelled to talk about the terrible things they do.”

DTH:
When we find out what happened here, do you think it’s going to be simple? Is it going to be the simplest explanation?

DC:
“No, I don’t think so, and that’s just my own personal opinion. Because, it’s uh, it’s complex.”

“It’s—from what happened down there to what happened over there is complex. And, there’s not a simple explanation.”

 

[m00c0w]

Since several people have talked about the phone tower data and there seems to be some confusion about towers versus GPS and accuracy between the two methods... let me explain what's going on here using some sourcing. This is something I have extensive experience in with my day job, so to see the data misrepresented is somewhat bothersome.

This article is a pretty good primer on how historical cell tower data works - you get a list of phone calls and texts from the telco, and with each call or text are the towers the phone was connected to during the session (sometimes more than one, in the case of a phone call that is jumping between towers). The data from that product is then analyzed according to the article:

Cell Tower Triangulation – How it Works

First, I refer you to Martin Yant’s earlier post on this subject: The post makes the point that data from a single cell tower is essentially worthless in trying to place someone in a partic…

wrongfulconvictionsblog.org

Of note, one of the first things they point out is "...data from a single cell tower is essentially worthless in trying to place someone in a particular location. The best you can expect is a band within a 120° “pie wedge” from the cell tower.". This is true from my experience, as well.

If you have one tower, you will wind up with a tower location and which sector of the tower the signal was present in:



You also get a signal strength that sort of allows you to estimate how far away from the tower the phone was, but it's still going to be somewhere within that 120 degree sector along that band. You can have miles of possible area to cover. If you have multiple towers that overlap, you can start to narrow down where the phone is using basic triangulation - the more towers, the better. AFAIK, there were only two towers in the area of RL's house, for instance, so your ability to pinpoint an exact location isn't going to be very solid. You'll still have a pretty sizeable chunk of area to account for.

Using cellmapper.net, you can actually see that his house sits at the very edges of sectors of both towers. With this, it may be possible to eliminate him having been at his house without knowing where he actually was on the rest of the property that is still within the relevant portion of the relevant sector.

Here's an additonal WaPo article that goes into some more depth about the intricacies involved with this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/experts-say-law-enforcements-use-of-cellphone-records-can-be-inaccurate/2014/06/27/028be93c-faf3-11e3-932c-0a55b81f48ce_story.html?hpid=z1

They have a similar tower sector image in that article as well. One interesting note from the article that bears repeating:

The use of historical cell-site locator data is different than real-time triangulation of three cell towers to locate a phone, or GPS technology using satellites. The accuracy of those technologies is not in dispute, but phone companies do not save GPS or triangulation data for an individual phone — so that information is not used as evidence.

JMO if not covered by something cited

 

[steeltowngirl]

It's easy to imagine them coming across each other online if they had similar "interests". I have no idea if they did, but I am sure KAK had relationships with people from all walks of life, all over the world given his "line of work".

Again, I have no idea if they are connected, but I believe LE thought they might be given the wording of RLs search warrant.

"Know what your kids are doing online".

JMO, of course.

I agree. There could be a connection between KAK and RL.. we just don’t know.

Just to clarify on the quote - this was from 2017. There may be a newer one made recently about online. But back then, they weren’t announcing that.. if it were even known yet.

Sgt. Kim Riley said parents should keep a close eye on their children. “I think people need to be cautious and careful,” Riley said. “Parents should make sure they know where their children are and what their children are doing, and if nothing else, know what’s going on in their lives. That’s the most important thing I can say at this point in time.”

Police ask for assistance in identifying man seen walking on trail where Delphi teens went missing

Update: Police released a photo of a man taken on the Delphi Historic Trails on Feb. 13, around the time Abigail Williams and Liberty German were walking. Investigators want to talk with him about …

fox59.com

 

[TLobo]

You raise an interesting point. RL's phone made a call at 2:09 pm. Libby started recording the video of BG four minutes later at 2:13 pm. In my mind, that means RL isn't BG... I just don't see BG calling someone from the vicinity of the bridge with Libby and Abby in sight.

I agree with you, but - completely hypothetically - RL could have been making a call to BG. Maybe he was serving as some sort of lookout and then contacted BG once the girls reached the bridge?

Obviously MOO, I keep trying to think of how to explain this ragtag gaggle of miscreants that has appeared with connections to this case. So many creeps have popped up.

ETA: or perhaps LE thought this could have been a possible connection between RL and BG, but we're able to rule it out at some point.

 

[AC4RD]

Based on the search warrant, the FBI special agent was accusing RL of the entire crime, RL being BG, committing the murders, taking the "souvenirs" and all.

I'm quibbling again, but in a case this complicated, I think it is good to be careful about the way we phrase things, and this is a point that I think is worth being sure of. The search warrant application doesn't accuse RL of a crime as such. As I read it, the warrant application states that in the agent's professional opinion, there exists reason to search RL's property and devices for evidence related to the murders; it doesn't make a specific claim about RL's guilt. Just FWIW.