Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

[TL4S]

I can't even believe I'm going here, but...

In the RL affidavit, in the list of types of evidence allowed to be removed, it included animal hairs.

In the 2020 KAK interview, the LE officers twice mention KAK searching bestiality.

In the Nov. 2021 Peru house search, it's claimed that the dog was removed from the property.

I'm not the first to suggest this, but how likely does it seem that a dog could be involved in this crime? At the very least, it might explain the creek crossing if a dog was chasing them. JMO. Very random, I know...

 

[Justice101]

IMHO, the purpose of the press conferences was to generate additional relevant tips from actual witnesses and/or real life observations of people who may have looked like BG that had interacted with people after the crime.

The purpose was NOT to have a clean story with a perfect timeline tied up with a bow and written so the people completely on the outside of the case (like us, who are overly interested in the case) can line everything up and "solve" it.

This is an "us" problem and not a LE problem.

 

[JnRyan]

I can't even believe I'm going here, but...

In the RL affidavit, in the list of types of evidence allowed to be removed, it included animal hairs.

In the 2020 KAK interview, the LE officers twice mention KAK searching bestiality.

In the Nov. 2021 Peru house search, it's claimed that the dog was removed from the property.

I'm not the first to suggest this, but how likely does it seem that a dog could be involved in this crime? At the very least, it might explain the creek crossing if a dog was chasing them. JMO. Very random, I know...

We didn't see a dog in the video, assuming this is the only person involved. (Yes, I know, there are those that have stated he has a puppy under his jacket. Or a baby goat. Or miniature horse. Or kangaroo. Or any number of other critters.) I wonder if dog hairs were found on the girls and this is transfer from the killer's clothing. If that is true as time goes on it is very likely this dog will be deceased and this could be a dead end over time.

If it is transfer, there is another possibility. The dog does not belong to the killer, but rather to someone else he visited recent to the murders. IF that is the case, LE revealing that and the possible breed, might make someone realize they know the killer. Then again he could have stopped somewhere along the way and petted/held the dog of some stranger who just happened to cross paths with him.

 

[TL4S]

We didn't see a dog in the video, assuming this is the only person involved.

RSBM. Yes, a dog would have either had to be with a second person DTH, or tied somewhere DTH prior to the murders. There would be tons of evidence left behind, too, and since we've never really heard anything about it, it's probably very unlikely. It's one of the few scenarios that makes sense crossing the creek, though, imo. I still struggle with that after 5 1/2 years... Sort of grasping at straws type thing.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I wonder if the dog hair is what implicates TK. From his 2015 FB post, his dog was 7 months old.

 

[IQuestion]

RSBM. Yes, a dog would have either had to be with a second person DTH, or tied somewhere DTH prior to the murders. There would be tons of evidence left behind, too, and since we've never really heard anything about it, it's probably very unlikely. It's one of the few scenarios that makes sense crossing the creek, though, imo. I still struggle with that after 5 1/2 years... Sort of grasping at straws type thing.

TL4S, I guess we all see the crime scene and "possible movement" a little differently. The girls making a run for a safe, populated area crossing the creek back towards the cemetery always made sense to me. When a person finds themselves caught in a tight spot, common knowledge/action would be to retreat back to the way you entered. It might have been an attempt to get back to their drop off point.
Or have I misunderstood?
BTW spent many hours listening to MS podcasts and found DH's comments to be a hoot. (So many times he made me laugh...in his candidness.)

 

[carbuff]

JBC used dogs to attack the girl in his house. Might not be related, but...

 

[somequestions]

The reason I think LE does not know who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German is because of what former prosecutor Ives said during an interview. He said that if a detective from the 1960's or 70's had come across the crime scene they would have thought the case would have been solved quickly too.

In my opinion, the most baffling part of the case is transportation. In order to commit a crime like this in a location like the Monon High Bridge trail area, you need to have transportation. I do think the killer may have walked, but not on the same side as the crime scene. I think the killer took them across the creek for privacy, not because that is towards the direction of where their vehicle was parked.

I would be shocked if this person was living within an hour of Delphi, Indiana at the time this crime was committed too. It was a Monday in the afternoon. Why is this person not at a job? If they were not at their job and were from the local Delphi area, would it really escape people in Delphi that this person missed work and looks like the person in the video?

In my opinion, the fact of the matter is that none of the people discussed so far as possible suspects matches the description of the person in the video. Maybe things might change in the future, but as of today I think investigators have no idea who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

 

[Jay78]

The reason I think LE does not know who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German is because of what former prosecutor Ives said during an interview. He said that if a detective from the 1960's or 70's had come across the crime scene they would have thought the case would have been solved quickly too.

In my opinion, the most baffling part of the case is transportation. In order to commit a crime like this in a location like the Monon High Bridge trail area, you need to have transportation. I do think the killer may have walked, but not on the same side as the crime scene. I think the killer took them across the creek for privacy, not because that is towards the direction of where their vehicle was parked.

I would be shocked if this person was living within an hour of Delphi, Indiana at the time this crime was committed too. It was a Monday in the afternoon. Why is this person not at a job? If they were not at their job and were from the local Delphi area, would it really escape people in Delphi that this person missed work and looks like the person in the video?

In my opinion, the fact of the matter is that none of the people discussed so far as possible suspects matches the description of the person in the video. Maybe things might change in the future, but as of today I think investigators have no idea who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

I actually think you've nailed it here. Based on the types of questions they've asked (such as asking anyone who spoke to a_s to come forward nearly 5 years into their investigation) and decisions, such as removing the physical description from the wanted posters, to even going quiet with the media (a desire to avoid questions that they know need to be asked) makes me believe that they are still at the stage of trying to find a clue if who really did this. Carter speaks often if being "one piece away" from cracking this case...what if the one piece is who this actually is (ie a name). I truly worry that we will be here on the day of the 10 year "anniversary" wondering what LE is working on....but I bet the powers that be to make me wrong.

 

[Falling Down]

The reason I think LE does not know who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German is because of what former prosecutor Ives said during an interview. He said that if a detective from the 1960's or 70's had come across the crime scene they would have thought the case would have been solved quickly too.

In my opinion, the most baffling part of the case is transportation. In order to commit a crime like this in a location like the Monon High Bridge trail area, you need to have transportation. I do think the killer may have walked, but not on the same side as the crime scene. I think the killer took them across the creek for privacy, not because that is towards the direction of where their vehicle was parked.

I would be shocked if this person was living within an hour of Delphi, Indiana at the time this crime was committed too. It was a Monday in the afternoon. Why is this person not at a job? If they were not at their job and were from the local Delphi area, would it really escape people in Delphi that this person missed work and looks like the person in the video?

In my opinion, the fact of the matter is that none of the people discussed so far as possible suspects matches the description of the person in the video. Maybe things might change in the future, but as of today I think investigators have no idea who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

That and I'm convinced the killer knew juveniles would be at the MHB thst day.

JMO

 

[Justice101]

I like your theory about an alternate route to his car.

If you look to the NE of the crime scene, BG could have easily walked his way in from a road and woods that is there and not be seen until he got to the trail bridge.

After the murder he could easily follow that tree line again back to the NW to a vehicle.

Do we know WHERE the witnesses saw him? On the trail? Off the trail? Beside the road??

 

[girlhasnoname]

I can completely understand differing accounts of BG, eyewitnesses can and often are wrong due to several factors.

<snipped>

Eyewitness error is a leading cause of wrongful convictions. For instance, eyewitness error was involved in about 75% of the 312 DNA exonerations cases in the U.S. (7). Gross and Shaffer (8) conducted a detailed analysis of 873 cases in the National Registry of Exonerations, a joint project of Michigan’s and Northwestern’s law schools, and determined that eyewitness misidentifications occurred in 667 (76%) cases. Smith and Cutler (9) analyzed 1198 cases of wrongful conviction and considered other factors relevant to the causes of wrongful convictions. They concluded “that about 50% of the cases of conviction of the innocent involved mistaken identification” (p. 11). Moreover, the American Psychological Association estimates that about one of every three eyewitnesses makes an erroneous identification (10).

An Examination of the Causes and Solutions to Eyewitness Error

 

[somequestions]

I can completely understand differing accounts of BG, eyewitnesses can and often are wrong due to several factors.

<snipped>

Eyewitness error is a leading cause of wrongful convictions. For instance, eyewitness error was involved in about 75% of the 312 DNA exonerations cases in the U.S. (7). Gross and Shaffer (8) conducted a detailed analysis of 873 cases in the National Registry of Exonerations, a joint project of Michigan’s and Northwestern’s law schools, and determined that eyewitness misidentifications occurred in 667 (76%) cases. Smith and Cutler (9) analyzed 1198 cases of wrongful conviction and considered other factors relevant to the causes of wrongful convictions. They concluded “that about 50% of the cases of conviction of the innocent involved mistaken identification” (p. 11). Moreover, the American Psychological Association estimates that about one of every three eyewitnesses makes an erroneous identification (10).

An Examination of the Causes and Solutions to Eyewitness Error

I think this is very true. Even in the discussion people keep talking about eyewitness statements without even questioning if the person seen was actually the killer.

I think when LE put out those sketches, it was due to guessing with eyewitnesses who think they may have seen the killer. It is another reason I think they probably do not know who committed this crime. Sometimes you have to guess. But by putting out sketches, people now focus on the sketches and not the video. Since the younger sketch came after the older one, this is currently the face everyone is looking for. I know a sketch is only a resemblance to the actual person, but what if the second sketch is so far off that it is not even close to a resemblance? I personally think the first sketch is closer to what the person on the bridge might actually look like.

As for the current person of interest, I can understand why they might want to look at him. Supposedly he had communications with Liberty German through the social media account, but in my opinion, he does not look like the person on the bridge. And I think only one person committed this crime.

I disregard the sketches and look at the video. In my opinion, it looks like someone late 40's to late 60's, even though I know statistics do not suggest people in that age range murder children as much as the younger age range. Everyone sees the case differently and you go where the evidence leads you. Often times that is subjective: what you think.

 

[IQuestion]

That and I'm convinced the killer knew juveniles would be at the MHB thst day.

JMO

FALLING DOWN I have to agree 100%. Here in SoCal we just had a horrible murder of a young performer at a restaurant, in the middle of the day! (RIP young man) The news has speculated (and many others) his girlfriend had posted their location ( called "tagging location?") on the internet and within 20 minutes the killers used that information to locate and rob the performer who was known to wear expensive jewelry.
News reporters have advised to NEVER disclose your destination or current location on social media. The reporters said you should only "tag your location" after the fact.
So, wondering if Abby & Libby were "tagging their location in real time/or shortly before posting their intended destination" and anyone having access to KAK's accounts would also know.
(This "see me" everywhere I go, what I buy, what I drive, what I'm having for lunch, what I'm doing on vacation...people wise up Too Much Information is not good! Unless of course I am your Mother and want to know what you are doing.)

 

[Prime8]

I would be shocked if this person was living within an hour of Delphi, Indiana at the time this crime was committed too. It was a Monday in the afternoon. Why is this person not at a job? If they were not at their job and were from the local Delphi area, would it really escape people in Delphi that this person missed work and looks like the person in the video?

In my opinion, the fact of the matter is that none of the people discussed so far as possible suspects matches the description of the person in the video. Maybe things might change in the future, but as of today I think investigators have no idea who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

Not everyone has a 9-5, M-F job. A lot of people work weekends and night shifts, especially in an area with a lot of manufacturing.

As for the possible suspects (that we know about) matching the video... the descriptions based on the video are very vague at best. The FBI has already scrubbed all the descriptors. Basically the descriptor is a white guy who is not at either extremes of height and is very average.

 

[MichMan015]

Perhaps the photo Libby took on the bridge was a tag, to say here we are at the bridge where are you?

Michman015

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think this is very true. Even in the discussion people keep talking about eyewitness statements without even questioning if the person seen was actually the killer.

I think when LE put out those sketches, it was due to guessing with eyewitnesses who think they may have seen the killer. It is another reason I think they probably do not know who committed this crime. Sometimes you have to guess. But by putting out sketches, people now focus on the sketches and not the video. Since the younger sketch came after the older one, this is currently the face everyone is looking for. I know a sketch is only a resemblance to the actual person, but what if the second sketch is so far off that it is not even close to a resemblance? I personally think the first sketch is closer to what the person on the bridge might actually look like.

As for the current person of interest, I can understand why they might want to look at him. Supposedly he had communications with Liberty German through the social media account, but in my opinion, he does not look like the person on the bridge. And I think only one person committed this crime.

I disregard the sketches and look at the video. In my opinion, it looks like someone late 40's to late 60's, even though I know statistics do not suggest people in that age range murder children as much as the younger age range. Everyone sees the case differently and you go where the evidence leads you. Often times that is subjective: what you think.

I agree, the man in the video is the suspect. To me he looks anywhere from late 20's to 40's. Hah, we are varying age by 20 years, it's all so subjective, but I think it could be KAK or someone else involved with him.

I do think there is a link to the murders with KAK, it's just too coincidental how he happens to be connected to LG and the A_shots account before the crime and then his sudden actions after the crime.

I wonder if they have DNA that is too degraded to conclusively type to one person, but could be a familial match?

MOO

 

[AC4RD]

This is an "us" problem and not a LE problem.

See, that's what I meant with my reply to Sandy_80; I don't always express myself clearly. Sometimes I just bang my spoon on the highchair. And I agree almost completely with Sandy's rebuttal.

My own point (which I didn't express very clearly, sorry!) was just: Yes, there have been a million Persons of Interest, and a million different body types of those PsOI, and occupations and all that, and locations and methods of travel and all that. But I don't think it's fair to blame law enforcement for that.

The cops have NOT released a million names and body types and home towns. Yes, there was the bizarre confusion with the two sketches, which was just awful--looked to me like a massive lack of coordination, not that I know anything about it. But it is US, the people interested in seeing the murderer(s) arrested and tried, who keep coming up with Persons of Interest based on the fact that Mr ABC owned a blue jacket and once visited Delphi, Mr LMNOP is a registered SO and lives in Indianapolis, Mr XYZ is a geocacher--it's US who keep coming up with all the suspects all over the place.

When we talk about suspects being all over the place in residence and physiognomy and occupation and clothing--as you said very succinctly, Justice101: that is US, not law enforcement. Who they've looked at and are looking at now, and why, and what they're finding out: all that is known only to them, and since we do not know what and why, I think it's not really fair to blame LE for all the various Bad Dudes we keep talking about. We are the ones who keep bringing them up, not the police.

BTW, I've only seen references to the "gas station video"--can someone point me to a writeup about it? I'd like to know what's going on but haven't found a source explaining it yet. (Lots of chat, not much explanation.) TIA! --ken

 

[JnRyan]

BTW, I've only seen references to the "gas station video"--can someone point me to a writeup about it? I'd like to know what's going on but haven't found a source explaining it yet. (Lots of chat, not much explanation.) TIA! --ken

I believe this refers to "The Murder Sheet" 23 August episode, "The FBI and the Lost Tape".

Murder Sheet

The Murder Sheet is a weekly true crime podcast hosted by journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee. We take a journalistic approach to covefing true crime. We have broken national news on major cases, like the Delphi murders and the Burger Chef murders. We also cover plenty of other...

art19.com

 

[Arkay]

When we talk about suspects being all over the place in residence and physiognomy and occupation and clothing--as you said very succinctly, Justice101: that is US, not law enforcement. Who they've looked at and are looking at now, and why, and what they're finding out: all that is known only to them, and since we do not know what and why, I think it's not really fair to blame LE for all the various Bad Dudes we keep talking about. We are the ones who keep bringing them up, not the police.

I had an epiphany in 2003 which caused me to realize, as you said @AC4RD, that there is so much known only to LE.

For me it was when LE raided Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch. That hit the news, and I was wondering why in the world the police would be tearing up the ranch of good old Michael Jackson? When they found what they found in the secret rooms, I realized that police keep things under wraps until the public has a right to know. They can't compromise an investigation where the public will intrude with theories that are not factually based, and where the public takes immediate sides about guilt or innocence.

Do police mess up at times? I'm sure. But overall they know A LOT that we, the chattering inquiring minds, don't know.

Nearly two years after 9/11, I asked my cousin if he thought I'd be safe to go see the Macy's Fourth of July fireworks. He's a Federal detective who at the time was on a NYC terrorist task force. He said I would be, but he absolutely would not tell me why or how he knew or anything specific at all. It's privileged information and even though it's not as though I'd blab classified info all around Manhattan, he is trained to keep info within the LE ranks where it belongs.

Personally I vacillate all the time between which person or persons I suspect, and sometimes I think it was a drifter passing through who is now gone with the wind.

But I don't know anything that has not been revealed by those who hold the evidence, and that is LE.

Of course I hope this case is solved any second now, but I agree that it's we, the public, who is constantly inserting our conjecture, speculation and theories into this case.

JMO