Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

[StarryStarryNight]

Underlined by me. I don't have evidence, but I always assumed that Libby's phone was found at/near the crime scene. Seeing this new quote lends credence to the what some have found to be an off-hand type remark about Libby's phone "pinging all over town" that day. I had assumed he had meant before the girls disappeared, as it has been mentioned that Libby was asking around for a ride to the park that day.

Now, I think the perp had Libby's phone, and carried it around town later that day to locations that investigators may make the case for the perp being a local or locally connected (seem to know the area).

Also, "the importance of the car being local." How would they know that unless they had the tag number OR was there some local business advertisement on the car? For example only: Uber sign? Pizza delivery? What other cars would have a local business advertised on them? Car seems to rule out a work truck type vehicle, plumber etc.

What say you? Looking for feedback. TIA.

Very early nobody even knew the photos of BG were from Libby’s phone. Once that was learned there were questions about whether LE got the photos from the cloud or the actual phone. LE said they came from the phone. Then the questions were where did they find the phone and after a period of time LE said the phone was found at the crime scene or nearby.
At least that’s how I remember things.

 

[BlueShoe]

I keep going back to that group of hikers that were accosted 3 weeks prior to the murders by a hobo looking guy, reddish hair, who looked very much like the BG photos. Others might have noticed him also so a composite was done. After hearing about the murders the guy could have cleared out. Maybe he was arrested recently and cleared by DNA? I don't know but it could explain the radical change of direction back to an earlier sketch of someone close to the search? Possibly someone just visiting home who's family didn't cause suspicion?

That's quite possible. But if the guy was arrested, wouldn't he have to be positively identified by the hiker group in order to clear him? If there is DNA, that would clear this guy, but not invalidate the sketch, since there could be another old guy out there who would be a match. LE would have had to have the hobo guy in mind the entire time, and would need to identify him by something more than the sketch. To be honest, I had never heard of this hiker group and the hobo before. MOO

 

[JustEve]

I think there is a rift in the family, between the parents, with mom being overprotective, and dad, secretly feeling that the kid is too detached from him, emotionally, too different from him. What the kid wants from dad is praise and admiration (because it is harder to get it from him). Mom gives it unconditionally so he walks over her.

Absolutely, the rift in the family causing the rift in his psyche.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I think they identified him quite a while ago and that's what concerns me. I'm sure he was cleared at that time and I don't understand why LE didn't shift gears to the other sketch at that time.

I think they had to get enough evidence to stand behind the new sketch.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I know. I would have thought there would have been a public plea for him to speak with LE. Perhaps he did simply go talk to them.

An online search indicates to me (via two different sources) that this older man in a plaid shirt spoke to LE and was cleared. HTH
JMO

 

[margarita25]

I’m noting here that this case has involved religious references from LE from the beginning, fwiw. This is not the only quote I’ve seen that demonstrates this, but I’m about “quoted out for the day” so this will have to do for now lol...Just some food for thought as far as content related to the April 22 PC:

"But Leazenby, who still considers his office the lead agency in the case, said he understands that his name and his face are among those best known to those in town waiting for answers. The fact that the killer remains a mystery is among the reasons he filed to run for re-election in November 2018. (So far, he has no challenger.)

Leazenby said he has faith.

Faith in God.

And faith in the years of law enforcement experience attached to the case.

I’m a huge believer that there is a plan and that’s God’s plan, Leazenby said. There is a time for this to be resolved. When people ask, Why is it taking so long? I’m confident when I say that I know one day we’ll end up in that courthouse and someone will be standing there being prosecuted.

Delphi double homicides: 'Horrible to live like this,' a year after Abby and Libby were killed

 

[JustEve]

or like in big cities they say "don't know nuffin"
ie
(Don't ask Don't Tell)

Exactly!

 

[Cherokee]

I don’t quite understand the point of this. If Z is a suspect for a serious crime, and they get his DNA from discarded material, I think that the legal system is unlikely to even care who his biological parents are.

I think that a more likely scenario is—the researchers have some DNA—they set up a huge family tree, working from the fourth cousins that they discovered. They end up with a lot of names of men of a reasonable age range—they find out who of them might have been in Delphi at the right time—they get their DNA from discarded material—and none of it matches!

So—what went wrong? Did they calculate the age range erroneously? Did they rule out someone who ‘couldn’t have been in Delphi that day’, but he really was? Or was the family tree messed up, due to adoption or the wrong father on the birth certificate?

I’m still not confident that a court will unseal adoption records for a fishing trip, which is what it would be if they didn’t have other information pointing to a suspect.

All this MOO

JMO.

The point of my post was in answer to someone asking if it wouldn't be a problem for familial DNA matching if the perp were adopted (and known by another name).

I have worked on cases exactly as described where a plethora of 4th and 5th cousins are found with many different surnames and paths to matching. There is no shining light from the heavens on the owner of the DNA or his name. The matches have to be worked and researched and worked some more. Many don't have family trees, and many don't know their ancestors. Often people have DNA testing done to find THEIR families and ancestors, so they have do not have a nice, ordered, documented family tree that points the way to how they are connected to a match. A familial genealogist goes down many rabbit trails and does an inordinate amount of information research, sometimes just to get one clue that helps identify an ancestral line. It is often like trying to find the proverbial needle in a haystack.

I do not understand why you took exception to the information I provided. I never indicated the warrant would be a "fishing trip." It would only be after the DNA test results were confirmed by documentation and exact matching that the information would be given to LE. LE would first interview any DNA blood relatives to find if there had been an adoption or any other pertinent information. LE would do the investigative ground work after the possible DNA match was determined. If necessary, they would then ask for warrants to uncover more information.

In addition, all of this is an answer posed to a hypothetical question asked by another WS member in regards to if a suspect (in this case, the Delphi killer) were adopted, would it make it impossible to discover his identity through familial DNA.

My answer was it would not hinder the familial DNA search because it is not based on names but on chromosomes.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I think they identified him quite a while ago and that's what concerns me. I'm sure he was cleared at that time and I don't understand why LE didn't shift gears to the other sketch at that time.

Hypothetically speaking, what if this person who was a suspect (in sketch #1) was arrested early this year after an undercover sting by Police and then cleared within a few weeks because there was no DNA match. Perhaps the sting operation initially took quite a bit of time to develop and setup and LE had their sights on this person as the suspect, and needed to make sure that there was no room for this guy to walk. Perhaps LE expected that there would be a DNA match and when there wasn't.....

LE would immediately shift gears (say in February 2019, right before the 2 year press conference) and at that time they may have just gone back to the sketch produced three days after the murders. They may have only just registered it on their radar again and not had any time to definitively say that this is their guy.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

That's quite possible. But if the guy was arrested, wouldn't he have to be positively identified by the hiker group in order to clear him? If there is DNA, that would clear this guy, but not invalidate the sketch, since there could be another old guy out there who would be a match. LE would have had to have the hobo guy in mind the entire time, and would need to identify him by something more than the sketch. To be honest, I had never heard of this hiker group and the hobo before. MOO

It's origin is SM. Am I allowed to post a link to Truth Tellers here? They have screenshots with the names blocked out. I believe I also saw it mentioned elsewhere but can't find it. I'm still looking for that one.

 

[Charlot123]

I think this is a really good possibility, and a really good reminder that if you have a child you need to have some sort of GPS or find a phone app. Even if the phone is turned off it can be found, unless the battery is dead.

I know Verison has a plan

 

[Charlot123]

The MHB was in an intersection of towers coverage.
MOO I doubt "pinging all over"
info was provided to the police by the cell companies, getting info that fast - which requires a warrant and their response time seems a longer process.
MOO the pinging was a reference to FMIP or other location app.


MOO
this is the man who said he heard a couple arguing under the bridge. Sadly, I believe he heard one of the girls and the killer. If not, there is a couple of witnesses out there we have never had info on.

If he heard the girl and the killer arguing, he can recognize the man’s voice...

 

[ilovechili]

For me, "something stinks in Delphi" and it isn't the cheese, it's CCC and any one person or more that steered this investigation away from him.

Have you ever had a bad odour coming from your refrigerator but can't find where it's coming from? You don't do anything right away, but then it gets worse, so you start looking for the "culprit". You find something. Ahaah! Found it, and you chuck it out. Fridge still stinks but it'll go away now. But it doesn't. You keep looking and voila! You found something else. You throw it out and you think that was surely it. But alas, the stench persists and all the while it's getting worse. The rotten tomato fooled you, the mouldy hamburger fooled you but finally you just take the bull by the horns and empty the entire thing out and there you go! In the deep recesses of your over crowded refrigerator of fresh food and leftovers, there it is, a rotten, oozing, foul potato. That's CCC. Hidden behind the other not so savoury items you thought were the the cause of that horrible stench. Well, get out the Febreeze, there's some fresh air coming to town real soon! Always IMHO.

I sure hope my frig never gets that bad but I love this analogy. I also love that the name he does not want is taking off with the group effort. Coward of CC.

 

[Betty P]

The ISP have a crime lab that utilizes all of the best techniques for DNA analysis (that's not even considering FBI resources), if any DNA was collected from the crime scene, they would have some sort of profile by now. IMO they don't have one and this case is relying on other forms of physical evidence or witness testimony in order to produce an arrest.

They've already reported that DNA was collected. JMO, LE hasn't found a match in CODIS and perhaps hasn't spent the funds to gather DNA from criminals in Indiana, so don't have much of a database for potential matches. They want to keep trying to find the killer the old fashioned way for now. When they're ready to give up, they'll use the DNA in a more proactive manner, e.g. familial/genalogy DNA research.

 

[Charlot123]

Hypothetically speaking, what if this person who was a suspect (in sketch #1) was arrested early this year after an undercover sting by Police and then cleared within a few weeks because there was no DNA match. Perhaps the sting operation initially took quite a bit of time to develop and setup and LE had their sights on this person as the suspect, and needed to make sure that there was no room for this guy to walk. Perhaps LE expected that there would be a DNA match and when there wasn't.....

LE would immediately shift gears (say in February 2019, right before the 2 year press conference) and at that time they may have just gone back to the sketch produced three days after the murders. They may have only just registered it on their radar again and not had any time to definitively say that this is their guy.

JMO

Any chance they could have retrieved the DNA from that guy who probably eats out at McDonald’s? Sooner? Before a big undercover sting op?

 

[Boxer]

I never said this case couldn't be solved. I said it's not solved. The comment "hiding in plain sight" means that the man, like most, is probably working, going shopping, dining, etc... all the while, nobody knows its him.

He's probably not detached from society. He probably isnt a recluse. He probably didnt drastically change his routine.

The unveiling was announcing to the whole world "this guy we have been searching for is the wrong guy... here is another sketch that we are now looking for."

The shack was an impromptu, utterly irrelevant to the investigation, off-handed comment.

I agree.
MOO Carter is saying don't believe the the killer is some marginal person working for Indiana Packers, homeless, transient or a registered sex offender. Think about every local male in this age range who could look like this sketch. Think about community members who you would not suspected before due to the OBG sketch and the older age range.
The shack could be 'code' to a POI or, MOO he was just trying to change the image of Abby and Libby to a happier one.️

 

[Charlot123]

They've already reported that DNA was collected. JMO, LE hasn't found a match in CODIS and perhaps hasn't spent the funds to gather DNA from criminals in Indiana, so don't have much of a database for potential matches. They want to keep trying to find the killer the old fashioned way for now. When they're ready to give up, they'll use the DNA in a more proactive manner, e.g. familial/genalogy DNA research.

I think Nevada started gathering DNA from all convicts who are currently behind bars. It will help in the future, at least.

Why not do it everywhere? In all states?

They just found the killer of a 13-year old girl. She was abducted and killed many years ago, before two of his incarcerations... he was staying under the radar, until he moved to CO. Changed the name, too.

 

[Cherokee]

What if the bio family is unaware of the adopted individual? An original birth record may have been amended, or may never have existed. A birth mother could have left a newborn behind at the hospital, or given birth anywhere and later abandoned the child. An agency will place the child without identity. Back door adoptions also happen outside of agency placement. No one in the woman’s bio family may have a clue that the baby ever existed. Except the mother - and she would have no idea where the newborn went. The mother could even be now deceased.

JMO

That has actually happened in the case of El Dorado Jane Doe. In January, they found the paternal side of her family through a DNA match to a 2nd cousin through an autosomal DNA match. However, no one in that family knew of her existence, so she was either known by her father and hidden from his family, or he never knew of her existence. The latter is more likely.

More detailed research on the DNA is needed now, as well as more DNA testing on family members. It is unknown at this time if EDJD's maternal side has been identified, but it could be that few, if anyone, on that side of her family knew of her existence other than her mother. Eventually, EDJD's indentity will be known, but it is going to take more time and more DNA matches to narrow the possibilities further.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Any chance they could have retrieved the DNA from that guy who probably eats out at McDonald’s? Sooner?

There is always that chance.

 

[sunshineray]

For me, "something stinks in Delphi" and it isn't the cheese, it's CCC and any one person or more that steered this investigation away from him.

Have you ever had a bad odour coming from your refrigerator but can't find where it's coming from? You don't do anything right away, but then it gets worse, so you start looking for the "culprit". You find something. Ahaah! Found it, and you chuck it out. Fridge still stinks but it'll go away now. But it doesn't. You keep looking and voila! You found something else. You throw it out and you think that was surely it. But alas, the stench persists and all the while it's getting worse. The rotten tomato fooled you, the mouldy hamburger fooled you but finally you just take the bull by the horns and empty the entire thing out and there you go! In the deep recesses of your over crowded refrigerator of fresh food and leftovers, there it is, a rotten, oozing, foul potato. That's CCC. Hidden behind the other not so savoury items you thought were the the cause of that horrible stench. Well, get out the Febreeze, there's some fresh air coming to town real soon! Always IMHO.

Great analogy suziQ! It really does line up with the words and emotions from the last ISP press conference. They finally could have found the more obvious first smeller but had to clear it all and revisit the earlier contributors to the frig to see what else might stink. Lots of re-interviews and someone could have remembered something vital the changed the strategy.