Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams & Liberty (Libby) German - The Delphi Murders - #149

[Kittybunny]

Agree!!! I want this case solved so badly, but I get anxiety when I wonder what I will have to consume my thoughts afterwards... I need to get a life now, the end of this is imminent!

(Old people's emoji! Ha!)

Head on over to the insanity that is the Debbie Collier mystery - 9 threads of absolute head-scratching trying to put jigsaw puzzle pieces that surely came from 3 different boxes together into one coherent picture with no success!

It is very disappointing that nothing new has emerged, but I am very cynical about this case and really not that surprised we are still waiting.

 

[IQuestion]

You made me curious. So it appears they announced that the FBI would be taking over the tip line calls the same day they announced using the billboards and the reward was raised to $50,000. Thursday, February 23, 2017. There are multiple sources, but here's one:

UPDATED: Reward up to $50K in Delphi double homicide case; FBI answering tip line

So, if a tip came in on Feb. 23 or 24, or the FBI reviewed previous tips once they took over, could the ISP (or FBI) get subpoenas on SC and IG, get the results, subpoena Comcast, get the results, and get a search warrant all by Feb. 25?

TL4S snipped for focus "So, if a tip came in on Feb. 23 or 24, or the FBI reviewed previous tips once they took over, could the ISP (or FBI) get subpoenas on SC and IG, get the results, subpoena Comcast, get the results, and get a search warrant all by Feb. 25?"
Maybe the FBI was already working in the area on another case? Of the 36 individuals listed (and their ages) 85% of them were in their 20's & 30's.
"This has resulted in leads sent to 38 countries and yielded arrests of 337 subjects around the world. The operation has resulted in searches of residences and businesses of approximately 92 individuals in the United States."
(The US DOJ release is long, but trust me, IT IS A FASCINATING READ! Darknet/crypto currency etc. I feel confidant everything KAK had been doing left lots of bread crumbs that lead right to his front door.)

South Korean National and Hundreds of Others Charged Worldwide in the Takedown of the Largest Darknet Child Pornography Website, Which was Funded by Bitcoin

Jong Woo Son, 23, a South Korean national, was indicted by a federal grand jury in the District of Columbia for his operation of Welcome To Video, the largest child sexual exploitation market by volume of content. The nine-count indictment was unsealed today along with a parallel civil...

www.justice.gov

 

[JnRyan]

TL4S snipped for focus "So, if a tip came in on Feb. 23 or 24, or the FBI reviewed previous tips once they took over, could the ISP (or FBI) get subpoenas on SC and IG, get the results, subpoena Comcast, get the results, and get a search warrant all by Feb. 25?"
Maybe the FBI was already working in the area on another case? Of the 36 individuals listed (and their ages) 85% of them were in their 20's & 30's.
"This has resulted in leads sent to 38 countries and yielded arrests of 337 subjects around the world. The operation has resulted in searches of residences and businesses of approximately 92 individuals in the United States."
(The US DOJ release is long, but trust me, IT IS A FASCINATING READ! Darknet/crypto currency etc. I feel confidant everything KAK had been doing left lots of bread crumbs that lead right to his front door.)

South Korean National and Hundreds of Others Charged Worldwide in the Takedown of the Largest Darknet Child Pornography Website, Which was Funded by Bitcoin

Jong Woo Son, 23, a South Korean national, was indicted by a federal grand jury in the District of Columbia for his operation of Welcome To Video, the largest child sexual exploitation market by volume of content. The nine-count indictment was unsealed today along with a parallel civil...

www.justice.gov

Just to look at this in relation to KAK. This guy, Jong Woo Son, is apparently the ring leader involving 337 subjects around the world in 38 countries. And the FBI has him on 9 counts. KAK has how many, so far...30? Now Jong Woo Son's charges are federal and KAK's are Indiana. But still. It remains to be seen if KAK is even a connection to the killer of Abigail and Liberty. Whether he is or isn't, he is a bottom dwelling ****** of the lowest variety.

 

[TL4S]

Just to look at this in relation to KAK. This guy, Jong Woo Son, is apparently the ring leader involving 337 subjects around the world in 38 countries. And the FBI has him on 9 counts. KAK has how many, so far...30? Now Jong Woo Son's charges are federal and KAK's are Indiana. But still. It remains to be seen if KAK is even a connection to the killer of Abigail and Liberty. Whether he is or isn't, he is a bottom dwelling ****** of the lowest variety.

It's honestly shocking to me that with all KAK's charges, he doesn't have any known federal charges. With all the Dropbox links sharing and trip to Nevada, there was no prosecutable evidence that crossed state lines? I don't have strong knowledge of legal rules, but it still seems surprising to me.

 

[TL4S]

MS has me perplexed. During a recent interview with the hosts, which I'm not sure I'm allowed to link here, they talk about how difficult it is to obtain (through FOIA) documents in the state of IN, referring to police reports, etc., especially ones involving minors. Yet MS was able to get a hold of the 2020 KAK interview (supposedly by accident) and the RL search affidavit regarding the Delphi murders? And then they keep saying their source says KAK and his dad fooled the FBI by saying they were in Vegas at the time of the murders, yet in the interview, it's clearly stated how KAK told LE during his polygraph that they were at his grandparents' house in Peru. Then, we have the weird episode about KAK's commissary and visitation records, including a guest with questionable motive and conduct.

While we get all these new details to ruminate over, I just don't know how much weight to put on any of them. On one hand, much of their discrepancies can probably be explained, but on the other hand, who decides what's accurate? MS is putting their reputation on the line by publishing these things, so this is why I'm perplexed. They say they verify what their source says, and I respect them in keeping that source anonymous, but in the end, we're really just taking them at their word, which sometimes doesn't sit right with me. JMO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

It's honestly shocking to me that with all KAK's charges, he doesn't have any known federal charges. With all the Dropbox links sharing and trip to Nevada, there was no prosecutable evidence that crossed state lines? I don't have strong knowledge of legal rules, but it still seems surprising to me.

Maybe the Federal charges are pending based upon KAK's 'cooperation'?

 

[Ravenmoon]

MS has me perplexed. During a recent interview with the hosts, which I'm not sure I'm allowed to link here, they talk about how difficult it is to obtain (through FOIA) documents in the state of IN, referring to police reports, etc., especially ones involving minors. Yet MS was able to get a hold of the 2020 KAK interview (supposedly by accident) and the RL search affidavit regarding the Delphi murders? And then they keep saying their source says KAK and his dad fooled the FBI by saying they were in Vegas at the time of the murders, yet in the interview, it's clearly stated how KAK told LE during his polygraph that they were at his grandparents' house in Peru. Then, we have the weird episode about KAK's commissary and visitation records, including a guest with questionable motive and conduct.

While we get all these new details to ruminate over, I just don't know how much weight to put on any of them. On one hand, much of their discrepancies can probably be explained, but on the other hand, who decides what's accurate? MS is putting their reputation on the line by publishing these things, so this is why I'm perplexed. They say they verify what their source says, and I respect them in keeping that source anonymous, but in the end, we're really just taking them at their word, which sometimes doesn't sit right with me. JMO.

There is a lot of twists and turns in their reporting.
As to what KAK said in his 2020 document:

Originally (my understanding) is that when the search warrants were served back in February 2017, the Klines told LE that they were out of town (in Las Vegas) at the time the murders took place. I have NO idea why that was accepted by LE at the time. Having said that- I have my theoryONLY A THEORY)

LE was likely looking at a certain person , a land owner, at the time that KAK and another were quickly looked at. That can pretty easily be accepted because we were able to see the affidavit/ search warrant that was served in March 2017. It states in that affidavit that the agent requesting the search warrant named that person as a suspect. The Klines fell away from the attention of LE for about 2 years until they made certain that every bit of evidence was combed through and eventually disregarded.

Now- think back to the 2019 presser. This was our "change in direction." DC says later that week that he believed they were on to something VERY EARLY ON.

Well yeah- they could have got these people off the street years ago, but at least some of the LE moved the wrong way. They made some pretty big mistakes.

They knew that once they could rule out the other individual , they had dropped the ball on at least a few things. Apparently, by the time KAK was taken into custody in 2020 , the story about them in Las Vegas was the first of (probably) hundreds of lies told by KAK, This one, they could prove, and so KAK came up with the next lie about going to his Grandparents for a pay per view. Well- a kind of lie- because it looks like he and pops did make it over to Grandma's , but they used that opportunity tp (possibly- likely) destroy evidence.

AMOO
Murder Sheet

https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/logan-warrrant.pdf

 

[Prime8]

MS has me perplexed. During a recent interview with the hosts, which I'm not sure I'm allowed to link here, they talk about how difficult it is to obtain (through FOIA) documents in the state of IN, referring to police reports, etc., especially ones involving minors. Yet MS was able to get a hold of the 2020 KAK interview (supposedly by accident) and the RL search affidavit regarding the Delphi murders? And then they keep saying their source says KAK and his dad fooled the FBI by saying they were in Vegas at the time of the murders, yet in the interview, it's clearly stated how KAK told LE during his polygraph that they were at his grandparents' house in Peru. Then, we have the weird episode about KAK's commissary and visitation records, including a guest with questionable motive and conduct.

While we get all these new details to ruminate over, I just don't know how much weight to put on any of them. On one hand, much of their discrepancies can probably be explained, but on the other hand, who decides what's accurate? MS is putting their reputation on the line by publishing these things, so this is why I'm perplexed. They say they verify what their source says, and I respect them in keeping that source anonymous, but in the end, we're really just taking them at their word, which sometimes doesn't sit right with me. JMO.

MS is hosted by a journalist and an attorney that live in Indiana. They have access to an attorney only network for documents, which is where they found the 2020 KAK interview. Those documents were uploaded to that attorney only site for a brief period of time and they were able to download them. I do not remember hearing where they were able to get a copy of the RL search warrant.

Since then, they seem to have earned the trust of a few sources that have inside knowledge of the case. They have had a report that used to cover the case on their show, reporters in the area also have had inside sources. While we can't ourselves validate their sources, as a journalist and an attorney, they hang their reputation on their honesty. If they were lying about legal documents or obtaining them in nefarious ways, you can lose your license to practice law. As a journalist, again, if you are caught lying, your reputation is shot and you will likely not get a job in that field every again. So there are a lot of personal and professional stakes in what they are doing. IMO, they have been stepping lightly in what they consider fact and speculation.

 

[TL4S]

There is a lot of twists and turns in their reporting.
As to what KAK said in his 2020 document:

Originally (my understanding) is that when the search warrants were served back in February 2017, the Klines told LE that they were out of town (in Las Vegas) at the time the murders took place. I have NO idea why that was accepted by LE at the time. Having said that- I have my theoryONLY A THEORY)

LE was likely looking at a certain person , a land owner, at the time that KAK and another were quickly looked at. That can pretty easily be accepted because we were able to see the affidavit/ search warrant that was served in March 2017. It states in that affidavit that the agent requesting the search warrant named that person as a suspect. The Klines fell away from the attention of LE for about 2 years until they made certain that every bit of evidence was combed through and eventually disregarded.

Now- think back to the 2019 presser. This was our "change in direction." DC says later that week that he believed they were on to something VERY EARLY ON.

Well yeah- they could have got these people off the street years ago, but at least some of the LE moved the wrong way. They made some pretty big mistakes.

They knew that once they could rule out the other individual , they had dropped the ball on at least a few things. Apparently, by the time KAK was taken into custody in 2020 , the story about them in Las Vegas was the first of (probably) hundreds of lies told by KAK, This one, they could prove, and so KAK came up with the next lie about going to his Grandparents for a pay per view. Well- a kind of lie- because it looks like he and pops did make it over to Grandma's , but they used that opportunity tp (possibly- likely) destroy evidence.

AMOO
Murder Sheet

https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/logan-warrrant.pdf

There's only a few ways I can reconcile the two stories:

1) Maybe KAK and/or TK told the FBI during the 2/25/17 search that they had been in Vegas on the 13th, so without verifying it, Ramsey announces that KAK was "in no way connected" to the murders that same afternoon. BUT, later that afternoon, KAK was brought in to the polygraph, where he told them they had gone to his grandparents from noon to two or noon to three. That story is what is repeated and discussed in detail in the 2020 interview, stemming from what KAK said in his polygraph.

Or,

2) FBI Ramsey makes that statement, knowing fully that KAK is going in for further questioning on Delphi, they already know about a_shots talking to L, the CSAM, and the FBI wanted the public (and possible other CSAM sharers) thinking the focus was off the Ks.

Or,

3) MS's source is flat-out wrong. After all, the fake Vegas FB post didn't occur until May 2020, so it wasn't even there to show LE back in 2017.

I personally think #s 2 or 3 is more likely than 1. Who knows!

 

[FrostedGlass]

MS has a new episode up. I am slightly amused with the discussion about burn pits. Being from IN, I thought everyone knew what one was. I'll save further comment so I don't ruin it for others who haven't listened to it yet.

 

[Ekliptika]

If KAK claimed to be at his grand parents on the afternoon of the 13th, I wonder if his grand parents has confirmed that or not? Guess it must have been pretty easy to get that verified. Unless the grand parents were not home?
Has anyone seen any information about that in the interview transcrips?

 

[TL4S]

I'm looking at the probable cause for KAK's arrest again. Based on the wording, I am pretty convinced that the case in which Det. V was assigned in May 2020 was not Delphi. Actually, at the end, it says (and not redacted), "Reference Indiana State Police Incident 17ISPC002202." Does anyone know what that is?

When it talks about the polygraph test, it says the sergeants "spoke about this incident and case, [redacted]." Later in that same paragraph, he says the questions were based on case, [redacted]. There's nothing saying this isn't Delphi, but all KAK's responses were about communicating and getting pics/vids from underage girls, nothing specific to Delphi. I think "this incident" is referring to a case we don't know about, and the "and case, [redacted]" is Delphi, so some questions were asked about Delphi, but it wasn't the main focus. JMO. Based on KAK acting like he'd never heard about the ski mask incident before 2020, I no longer think that was it, but I'm wondering if there was an incident we don't know about that brought a_shots to the forefront.

Det. V is assigned lead ISP investigator of "this case." There again, do we know if he's lead investigator on Delphi, or a CSAM case? He takes over on April 24, 2020 and gets a digital forensics report on June 12, 2020. If LE was ignoring KAK for 3 years, as many believe, then that would mean Det. V would have had to send the digital devices over to get examined, everything was extracted, and a report made in 6 weeks time. Is that reasonable?

ETA: Here's a big "what if." What if Det. V was assigned to the case stemming from KAK's 5/14/2016 charges. Likely, that was an emilyanne exchange. And then what if the ski mask incident brought awareness to a_shots separately, so the FBI lets the ISP investigators working the 5/14/16 case know about a_shots and the possible Delphi connection. So it all kind of falls together?

 

[Prime8]

3) MS's source is flat-out wrong. After all, the fake Vegas FB post didn't occur until May 2020, so it wasn't even there to show LE back in 2017.

Did the source say that the Klines used their facebook post as an alibi? I don't remember hearing that, although I could be wrong. I had assumed that we weren't privy to what the Klines did or said to tell LE that they had been in Las Vegas at the time.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If KAK claimed to be at his grand parents on the afternoon of the 13th, I wonder if his grand parents has confirmed that or not? Guess it must have been pretty easy to get that verified. Unless the grand parents were not home?
Has anyone seen any information about that in the interview transcrips?

I think one of the big problems is LE didn’t show any interest in the Klines for three years, so by the time they got around to checking with the grandparents or anyone possibly in the know a good bit of time had passed.
I know the grandfather passed away earlier this year.

 

[TL4S]

Did the source say that the Klines used their facebook post as an alibi? I don't remember hearing that, although I could be wrong. I had assumed that we weren't privy to what the Klines did or said to tell LE that they had been in Las Vegas at the time.

That is what the MS hosts reported was the reason, based on what the source said. I don't recall which episode...the one with the Marathon gas, I think.

 

[FrostedGlass]

@TL4S I wondered about that, too. Court cases show it but I don't know how to decipher the numbers.

Reference

Prosecutor Case Management Number 52C01-2008-F4-DM1633683 Police Agency Number 17ISPC002202

 

[TL4S]

@TL4S I wondered about that, too. Court cases show it but I don't know how to decipher the numbers.

Reference

Prosecutor Case Management Number 52C01-2008-F4-DM1633683 Police Agency Number 17ISPC002202

So just a numeric identifier for the ISP or a unit within, maybe? It's strange to me that the full Peru address is not redacted on the first line, but redacted the rest of the affidavit.

That darn affidavit is driving me crazy. I think the first redacted case listed might be Delphi and the FBI got a tip or otherwise found out about a_shots while investigating Delphi. Aside from a possible L connection, the FBI thought a_shots might be linked to catfishing other girls, so they forwarded the info on to ISP Cyber Crimes? IDK. Would there be a new case number assigned to the a_shots case prior to a search warrant being issued? Because that's the only way I can make sense of the polygraph paragraph regarding "this incident" and another case (presumably Delphi). The only fake account discussed is a_shots, so apparently they weren't discussing, or even maybe aware of, emilyanne on 2/25/17. So Det. V was being assigned to the CSAM case started by the discovery of a_shots, but later bloomed into the emilyanne and so on? Again, was this all unearthed in only 6 weeks between when Det. V is assigned and when he gets the digital examination back? Or, was there another lead investigator in that role before V?

My head hurts trying to figure out how to read that affidavit. I guess that's the point of redactions.

 

[FrostedGlass]

So just a numeric identifier for the ISP or a unit within, maybe? It's strange to me that the full Peru address is not redacted on the first line, but redacted the rest of the affidavit.

That darn affidavit is driving me crazy. I think the first redacted case listed might be Delphi and the FBI got a tip or otherwise found out about a_shots while investigating Delphi. Aside from a possible L connection, the FBI thought a_shots might be linked to catfishing other girls, so they forwarded the info on to ISP Cyber Crimes? IDK. Would there be a new case number assigned to the a_shots case prior to a search warrant being issued? Because that's the only way I can make sense of the polygraph paragraph regarding "this incident" and another case (presumably Delphi). The only fake account discussed is a_shots, so apparently they weren't discussing, or even maybe aware of, emilyanne on 2/25/17. So Det. V was being assigned to the CSAM case started by the discovery of a_shots, but later bloomed into the emilyanne and so on? Again, was this all unearthed in only 6 weeks between when Det. V is assigned and when he gets the digital examination back? Or, was there another lead investigator in that role before V?

My head hurts trying to figure out how to read that affidavit. I guess that's the point of redactions.

Weren't the redactions done by MS at the direction of LE? They forgot to redact Adam, too.

I don't know how they designate cases prior to a person being charged. I see different reference numbers assigned to one case. All three of the redactions in this document seem to be the same length. The first redacted case is identified as an ISP case, who is in charge of the tip line. Are they in charge of all the tips regarding Delphi as well as a_shots?

Sorry, I'm not much help at all.

 

[Yemelyan]

I'm looking at the probable cause for KAK's arrest again. Based on the wording, I am pretty convinced that the case in which Det. V was assigned in May 2020 was not Delphi. Actually, at the end, it says (and not redacted), "Reference Indiana State Police Incident 17ISPC002202." Does anyone know what that is?

When it talks about the polygraph test, it says the sergeants "spoke about this incident and case, [redacted]." Later in that same paragraph, he says the questions were based on case, [redacted]. There's nothing saying this isn't Delphi, but all KAK's responses were about communicating and getting pics/vids from underage girls, nothing specific to Delphi. I think "this incident" is referring to a case we don't know about, and the "and case, [redacted]" is Delphi, so some questions were asked about Delphi, but it wasn't the main focus. JMO. Based on KAK acting like he'd never heard about the ski mask incident before 2020, I no longer think that was it, but I'm wondering if there was an incident we don't know about that brought a_shots to the forefront.

Det. V is assigned lead ISP investigator of "this case." There again, do we know if he's lead investigator on Delphi, or a CSAM case? He takes over on April 24, 2020 and gets a digital forensics report on June 12, 2020. If LE was ignoring KAK for 3 years, as many believe, then that would mean Det. V would have had to send the digital devices over to get examined, everything was extracted, and a report made in 6 weeks time. Is that reasonable?

ETA: Here's a big "what if." What if Det. V was assigned to the case stemming from KAK's 5/14/2016 charges. Likely, that was an emilyanne exchange. And then what if the ski mask incident brought awareness to a_shots separately, so the FBI lets the ISP investigators working the 5/14/16 case know about a_shots and the possible Delphi connection. So it all kind of falls together?

I don't know if this adds to the confusion or helps, but when DC appeared on an ISP media outlet called "The ISP Road Show" to discuss Delphi updates on January 28th, 2020, he talked about Detective Vido being assigned to the Delphi case. So we know he was already working on the case (not as a lead, though) prior to January 2020. You can watch this interview on YouTube but it may be easier to read the transcript, which is here: Delphi Murders: Indiana State Police Road Show (Interview Transcript) 01/28/2020 - CrimeLights

Relevant part that mentions Vido (his name is misspelled in the transcript, this predated any of the court documents being leaked that mentioned him):

JOHN PERRINE: Absolutely. And I can tell you First Sergeant Jerry Holeman has kind of lead this investigation…that has so many incredible people involved…but, I can assure you that there’s not a day that goes by that he doesn’t do something with this case.

DOUG CARTER: Oh gosh, yes!

JOHN PERRINE: Phone calls, e-mails, reviewing evidence…you know, he still, almost 3 years later, is still actively involved in this investigation.

DOUG CARTER: As is Jay Harper, who is one of my classmates. He’s been on the department 35 years. A young Trooper we assign there, David Vito, a tremendous opportunity for him to experience something of this magnitude. This is one of those cases that very few agencies in the country could handle, so we’ve had lots of partners.

 

[TL4S]

I don't know if this adds to the confusion or helps, but when DC appeared on an ISP media outlet called "The ISP Road Show" to discuss Delphi updates on January 28th, 2020, he talked about Detective Vido being assigned to the Delphi case. So we know he was already working on the case (not as a lead, though) prior to January 2020. You can watch this interview on YouTube but it may be easier to read the transcript, which is here: Delphi Murders: Indiana State Police Road Show (Interview Transcript) 01/28/2020 - CrimeLights

Relevant part that mentions Vido (his name is misspelled in the transcript, this predated any of the court documents being leaked that mentioned him):

JOHN PERRINE: Absolutely. And I can tell you First Sergeant Jerry Holeman has kind of lead this investigation…that has so many incredible people involved…but, I can assure you that there’s not a day that goes by that he doesn’t do something with this case.

DOUG CARTER: Oh gosh, yes!

JOHN PERRINE: Phone calls, e-mails, reviewing evidence…you know, he still, almost 3 years later, is still actively involved in this investigation.

DOUG CARTER: As is Jay Harper, who is one of my classmates. He’s been on the department 35 years. A young Trooper we assign there, David Vito, a tremendous opportunity for him to experience something of this magnitude. This is one of those cases that very few agencies in the country could handle, so we’ve had lots of partners.

Thank you for this! Do you think Vido would have been assigned lead by May of 2020? If he was a newer trooper, I have my doubts, at least on something as big as Delphi. What case do you think the affidavit is referring to?