Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams & Liberty (Libby) German - The Delphi Murders - #149

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I'm looking at the probable cause for KAK's arrest again. Based on the wording, I am pretty convinced that the case in which Det. V was assigned in May 2020 was not Delphi. Actually, at the end, it says (and not redacted), "Reference Indiana State Police Incident 17ISPC002202." Does anyone know what that is?

When it talks about the polygraph test, it says the sergeants "spoke about this incident and case, [redacted]." Later in that same paragraph, he says the questions were based on case, [redacted]. There's nothing saying this isn't Delphi, but all KAK's responses were about communicating and getting pics/vids from underage girls, nothing specific to Delphi. I think "this incident" is referring to a case we don't know about, and the "and case, [redacted]" is Delphi, so some questions were asked about Delphi, but it wasn't the main focus. JMO. Based on KAK acting like he'd never heard about the ski mask incident before 2020, I no longer think that was it, but I'm wondering if there was an incident we don't know about that brought a_shots to the forefront.

Det. V is assigned lead ISP investigator of "this case." There again, do we know if he's lead investigator on Delphi, or a CSAM case? He takes over on April 24, 2020 and gets a digital forensics report on June 12, 2020. If LE was ignoring KAK for 3 years, as many believe, then that would mean Det. V would have had to send the digital devices over to get examined, everything was extracted, and a report made in 6 weeks time. Is that reasonable?

ETA: Here's a big "what if." What if Det. V was assigned to the case stemming from KAK's 5/14/2016 charges. Likely, that was an emilyanne exchange. And then what if the ski mask incident brought awareness to a_shots separately, so the FBI lets the ISP investigators working the 5/14/16 case know about a_shots and the possible Delphi connection. So it all kind of falls together?

Just to be clear, AFAIK KAK has yet to be charged with anything related to Delphi. That may change, maybe it already has? His arrest was made for the contact he made with underage girls as well as the distribution of their photos , etc. etc.

He deserves to rot for those crimes alone.

I would say that we are going to find out when his case moves forward in January if they will tie in the murders or not. It's possible that there is not a need to include those charges in this upcoming trial . In fact, I don't know if that has to be separate or if it can be charged together?

At least I think this is the closest they have been to finally getting some form of justice for the girls and their families. I know that some people still don't see the K's as being the absolute only possibility , but I feel confidant that they ARE the people that will pay for this , and man- I hope that this happens any day now.

I feel like it will be.

JMO
 
Thank you for this! Do you think Vido would have been assigned lead by May of 2020? If he was a newer trooper, I have my doubts, at least on something as big as Delphi. What case do you think the affidavit is referring to?

For your first question, my guess is the same as yours. For the second - I don't know. I keep turning over in my head the few things that we know to definitely be true.
 
MS has me perplexed. During a recent interview with the hosts, which I'm not sure I'm allowed to link here, they talk about how difficult it is to obtain (through FOIA) documents in the state of IN, referring to police reports, etc., especially ones involving minors. Yet MS was able to get a hold of the 2020 KAK interview (supposedly by accident) and the RL search affidavit regarding the Delphi murders? And then they keep saying their source says KAK and his dad fooled the FBI by saying they were in Vegas at the time of the murders, yet in the interview, it's clearly stated how KAK told LE during his polygraph that they were at his grandparents' house in Peru. Then, we have the weird episode about KAK's commissary and visitation records, including a guest with questionable motive and conduct.

While we get all these new details to ruminate over, I just don't know how much weight to put on any of them. On one hand, much of their discrepancies can probably be explained, but on the other hand, who decides what's accurate? MS is putting their reputation on the line by publishing these things, so this is why I'm perplexed. They say they verify what their source says, and I respect them in keeping that source anonymous, but in the end, we're really just taking them at their word, which sometimes doesn't sit right with me. JMO.
I’ve also wondered about the MS credibility, but Greenlee offered this explanation: “As an attorney, Greenlee knew to follow Kline’s journey through the criminal justice system and check the court’s public files for documents.”

And Leazenby has backed the veracity of the documents.

Law enforcement reacts to transcript release​

Tobe Leazenby is completing his last year as the sheriff of Carroll County and has spearheaded the Delphi investigation since February 13, 2017, the day the girls were reported missing.

”Obviously they found what was factual information that was posted to a court’s venue,” said Leazenby. “They followed I guess what I would consider a proper channel or avenue to gain that information and it was reliable information.”

 
I’ve also wondered about the MS credibility, but Greenlee offered this explanation: “As an attorney, Greenlee knew to follow Kline’s journey through the criminal justice system and check the court’s public files for documents.”

And Leazenby has backed the veracity of the documents.

Law enforcement reacts to transcript release​

Tobe Leazenby is completing his last year as the sheriff of Carroll County and has spearheaded the Delphi investigation since February 13, 2017, the day the girls were reported missing.

”Obviously they found what was factual information that was posted to a court’s venue,” said Leazenby. “They followed I guess what I would consider a proper channel or avenue to gain that information and it was reliable information.”

Thanks for posting those links. I had never seen that TL article before and really appreciate seeing it!
 
there is something that I find baffling ...you seem happy with these suspects while you completely ignore fundamentales like motive and the crime itself
I feel that the word ( we dont know anything about this crime ) is so easily thrown around and its not true ...
we know its a very unusual case .. not cause of the fame factor attributed to a recording on the killer and SM , but cause of the crime itself
its a premeditated murder ..the killer went there to kill ..even with a sexual element attached .. killing is first
the manner of killing is hinted to be horrific ..as to cause the shock le have experienced ..
most importantly.. a crime scene was staged in an odd and unusual manner...something that not only rare but indicates calm and composure..
not a panicked accidental killer ..who after hes done the deed runs away
this leads me to a dangerous individual and potential psychopath with a host of motives ..its not any killer and its not any sick bad guy
all of this seems to be ignored ..for the sake of linking the case to any creep around that has nothing to do with anything i listed
JMPO
 
there is something that I find baffling ...you seem happy with these suspects while you completely ignore fundamentales like motive and the crime itself
I feel that the word ( we dont know anything about this crime ) is so easily thrown around and its not true ...
we know its a very unusual case .. not cause of the fame factor attributed to a recording on the killer and SM , but cause of the crime itself
its a premeditated murder ..the killer went there to kill ..even with a sexual element attached .. killing is first
the manner of killing is hinted to be horrific ..as to cause the shock le have experienced ..
most importantly.. a crime scene was staged in an odd and unusual manner...something that not only rare but indicates calm and composure..
not a panicked accidental killer ..who after hes done the deed runs away
this leads me to a dangerous individual and potential psychopath with a host of motives ..its not any killer and its not any sick bad guy
all of this seems to be ignored ..for the sake of linking the case to any creep around that has nothing to do with anything i listed
JMPO
It does definitely sound, from the hints we're given, to be an odd and horrific crime scene, left by somebody capable of things maybe we cannot fully understand. I don't think it's being ignored, but you're right, it must be taken into consideration when we look at potential suspects. Although, I'm not sure we can make accurate assumptions on the mental status of people we only know from reading about them online.

I respect that many people are not of the belief that the Ks were directly involved in the murders, but I will say that in looking at their history, in what we do know, I wouldn't be surprised if someone like them were discovered to be the killer(s) and left an odd crime scene. IMO, someone who searches sex with children and animals is odd. Someone who shoves a child's head into a toilet and bite's that child's mother in the stomach is odd. Someone who sits in front of their computer catfishing young girls and exchanging CSAM to massive levels is odd. To me, there is a deviance there that suggests deeper deviance is possible. IDK. It's just my take on it. But honestly, that kind of deep deviance could be lurking in just about anyone whether there are outside signs of it or not.
 
It does definitely sound, from the hints we're given, to be an odd and horrific crime scene, left by somebody capable of things maybe we cannot fully understand. I don't think it's being ignored, but you're right, it must be taken into consideration when we look at potential suspects. Although, I'm not sure we can make accurate assumptions on the mental status of people we only know from reading about them online.

I respect that many people are not of the belief that the Ks were directly involved in the murders, but I will say that in looking at their history, in what we do know, I wouldn't be surprised if someone like them were discovered to be the killer(s) and left an odd crime scene. IMO, someone who searches sex with children and animals is odd. Someone who shoves a child's head into a toilet and bite's that child's mother in the stomach is odd. Someone who sits in front of their computer catfishing young girls and exchanging CSAM to massive levels is odd. To me, there is a deviance there that suggests deeper deviance is possible. IDK. It's just my take on it. But honestly, that kind of deep deviance could be lurking in just about anyone whether there are outside signs of it or not.
none of these things are uncommon .. id say they are pretty common in sexual offenders and peados.. and there are terrifying number of them our there online and outside it..
I don't see BG to be common ...a sexual offender would look to satisfy himself through rape and disposing of victim ..to go beyond that and commit this horrific act and without direct rape is something else more indicative of a SK type..at least in psychology
I need the opinion of a pro criminal profiler for BG ...has anyone done this yet ?
 
none of these things are uncommon .. id say they are pretty common in sexual offenders and peados.. and there are terrifying number of them our there online and outside it..
I don't see BG to be common ...a sexual offender would look to satisfy himself through rape and disposing of victim ..to go beyond that and commit this horrific act and without direct rape is something else more indicative of a SK type..at least in psychology
I need the opinion of a pro criminal profiler for BG ...has anyone done this yet ?
John Kelly is a professional profiler and has done 45 YouTube episodes on this case. He has profiled BG in a limited way based on the information that's been made available to the public, which isn't necessarily saying much.

It is virtually impossible to profile an offender in any meaningful way without crime scene photos.
 
There are things that we know about the case.
Most things we now know were revealed less than a year ago. From the Ron Logan affidavit alone, we found this information:

'A suspect has been developed of a white male wearing a blue jacket with a heavy physical build wearing a cap and blue jeans."

*A white male wearing a blue jacket with a heavy physical build*

"LG and AW are presumed to have made contact with the unknown male at approximately 2:13pm based upon analysis of LG's cell phone, which recorded the video."

*We know what time the girls were confronted and led off the trail.*

"A large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene. "

*Doesn't appear the girls were strangled, rather they were likely bludgeoned, shot or stabbed. *

"Because of the nature of the victims wounds it is nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten blood on his person/clothing. "

*There had to be transfer from the victims to the perp. *

"It was also discovered that articles of clothing of one of the victims were missing from the crime scene while the rest of their clothing was recovered. "

*It sounds like the killer took a souvenir*


"It also appeared the girls' bodies were moved and staged based upon my training and experience."

*The killer likely got gratification by posing the girls in a way that was appealing to him. *

"It is common for perpetrators of this type of crime to take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene, whether by photos or electronic or digital methods that are then downloaded onto computers, storage devices, tablets, phones, iPads devices, or other electronic devices that store digital data for later viewing, scanning or copying."

*It seems as though whatever the positioning of the victims was, the killer needed to make certain the scene was available to him so that he could revisit when he chooses. *


"LG and AW had no visible signs of a struggle or fight."

*All that this could mean.....probably too many possibilities to actually narrow down- It is safe to say that these poor girls complied with the false hope that they would ultimately be released*

We know what LE was looking for, what they were interested in:


"Any and all evidence pertaining to a murder, including clothing, forensic evidence, blood seen and unseen hair, bodily fluids seen and unseen, fibers, weapons, including guns and cutting instruments, electronic devices used to produce the cellular signals detected by law enforcement in the area of the crime scene.

Computers and computer equipment, digital storage devices, tapes, cassettes, cartridges, streaming tape, commercial software and hardware, computer disks, flash drives, disk drives, monitors computer printers, modems tape drives this application programs data discs system disk operating systems, magnetic media floppy disks, computer software, hardware and software operating manuals, tape systems and hard drive and other computer related operation equipment.

Digital cameras, scanners in addition to computer photographs, graphic interchange formats and or photographs, undeveloped photographic film slides or other visual depictions of such graphic interchange format equipment and the data stored within these materials which has been used or may be used to store evidence of a
crime research ways to conceal a crime or destroy a crime scene.

Records, documents, writings and correspondence containing information about the crime crime scene or any individual involved in the crime.
Any and all tablets, phones, iPads devices, and any all other electronic devices which may contain digital data.

So...........honestly we do know a lot . At least a lot more than we did this time last year.

JMHO

https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/logan-warrrant.pdf

EBM for grammar.
 
none of these things are uncommon .. id say they are pretty common in sexual offenders and peados.. and there are terrifying number of them our there online and outside it..
I don't see BG to be common ...a sexual offender would look to satisfy himself through rape and disposing of victim ..to go beyond that and commit this horrific act and without direct rape is something else more indicative of a SK type..at least in psychology
I need the opinion of a pro criminal profiler for BG ...has anyone done this yet ?
AFAIK, the sexual assault of one or both girls has been neither confirmed nor denied.
 
you dont need that...if so dna would have solved the case immediately
also the families confirmed this
Interesting. I had not heard that the families confirmed there was not SA / rape.

I remain open to the possibility that the attack was sexually motivated. Rape may or may not have been completed. DNA can be unusable or become corrupted.

Among the reasons I remain open to SA:
-After the murders In 2017, LE quickly hauled in sex offenders for interviews.
-Deceased rape suspect Paul Etter‘s DNA was requested to determine if he could be responsible in Libby and Abby’s case.

jmo
 
you dont need that...if so dna would have solved the case immediately
also the families confirmed this
I disagree. That would only be true if the perp left seminal fluid with DNA. If the perp committed sexual assault but wore a condom, then there might not be any DNA.
Moreover, the lack of a sexual assault doesn't mean that the crime wasn't sexually motivated. Many serial killers experience sexual gratification from the act of killing. Some may be impotent and may only experience sexual gratification through killing.
 
I would say that we are going to find out when his case moves forward in January if they will tie in the murders or not. It's possible that there is not a need to include those charges in this upcoming trial . In fact, I don't know if that has to be separate or if it can be charged together?
There are only 10 days until KAK's next pretrial conference, then a final conference in Dec, before the jury trial in January. I would be surprised if a plea agreement isn't reached in the next 2 months, but sometimes the defendant holds out until jury selection begins. If KAK chances going to a jury trial, there will no mention of the Delphi murders.
If some, as of yet undisclosed, evidence involves him in the murders, perhaps the state will ask for a continuance of his current trial schedule. If the state continues the trial, that does not make it a fact that there is a murder charge in the works.

The process of filing a murder charge and having it brought to trial is lengthy, it cannot suddenly be just tacked onto a different case in a different jurisdiction. The murder wasn't even in the same county as the KAK's other (non-federal) charges.
 
There are only 10 days until KAK's next pretrial conference, then a final conference in Dec, before the jury trial in January. I would be surprised if a plea agreement isn't reached in the next 2 months, but sometimes the defendant holds out until jury selection begins. If KAK chances going to a jury trial, there will no mention of the Delphi murders.
If some, as of yet undisclosed, evidence involves him in the murders, perhaps the state will ask for a continuance of his current trial schedule. If the state continues the trial, that does not make it a fact that there is a murder charge in the works.

The process of filing a murder charge and having it brought to trial is lengthy, it cannot suddenly be just tacked onto a different case in a different jurisdiction. The murder wasn't even in the same county as the KAK's other (non-federal) charges.
KAK always thinks the he's the smartest guy in the room. He probably thinks he can beat the charges. I don't think he'll take a plea deal unless it's extremely favorable to him. I don't even know whether a plea deal will be offered in the CSAM case.
I'm certain nothing will be offered in the Delphi case unless the investigators think that he was only an accomplice with no direct involvement in the murders.
If they think that he's the killer, they'll do whatever they can to get him the death penalty.
 
none of these things are uncommon .. id say they are pretty common in sexual offenders and peados.. and there are terrifying number of them our there online and outside it..
I don't see BG to be common ...a sexual offender would look to satisfy himself through rape and disposing of victim ..to go beyond that and commit this horrific act and without direct rape is something else more indicative of a SK type..at least in psychology
I need the opinion of a pro criminal profiler for BG ...has anyone done this yet ?
I think you are assuming a lot about sexual predators and violence. There are estimates thay 20% of sexual offenders experience sexual dsyfunction (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6962056/); the rate of violent recidivism among sex offenders is ~17% while the sex offense recidivism is ~5% (Chapter 5: Adult Sex Offender Recidivism homicide offenders have a lower rate of psychopathy than other offender groups (Homicide offenders have lower levels of psychopathy and sadism compared to other convicts, study finds), etc.
 
Estimates range from 90% to 97% of all criminal charges never go to trial. This is just as much the prosecutor avoiding the risks and expense of trial as the defendant.
KAK's charges are nothing unique in Indiana. No matter how "stupid" anyone thinks he is, KAK knows he admitted to soliciting underage girls to send him the nude pics/videos which were on his phone. If this case is concluded in January or before, without anything showing a direct link to the Delphi murders, I would be glad to never see his name again.
 
KAK always thinks the he's the smartest guy in the room. He probably thinks he can beat the charges. I don't think he'll take a plea deal unless it's extremely favorable to him. I don't even know whether a plea deal will be offered in the CSAM case.
I'm certain nothing will be offered in the Delphi case unless the investigators think that he was only an accomplice with no direct involvement in the murders.
If they think that he's the killer, they'll do whatever they can to get him the death penalty.
snipped for emphasis: "
I'm certain nothing will be offered in the Delphi case unless the investigators think that he was only an accomplice with no direct involvement in the murders."
OZONER "If" KAK arranged the meeting, ie lured two girls using the false electronic identity of A_S, pointed out/verified identity of the girls to the killer, has photos of the crime scene, lied to investigators for 5 years, and knew the location of physical evidence/weapons involved in the crime.....
Just curious what you & others think might be a "good deal" for KAK? My only WS experience to compare was the murder of beautiful Dr. Teresa Sievers. (RIP beautiful Mother) For the record, because of the young age of the girls, I want the harshest deal possible. (Hard labor, reduced rations, cold prison and a really disgusting cellmate, if possible.)
 
I disagree. That would only be true if the perp left seminal fluid with DNA. If the perp committed sexual assault but wore a condom, then there might not be any DNA.
Moreover, the lack of a sexual assault doesn't mean that the crime wasn't sexually motivated. Many serial killers experience sexual gratification from the act of killing. Some may be impotent and may only experience sexual gratification through killing.
i didnt say the crime wasn't sexually motivated ...but i am positive rape didnt happen
 
I think you are assuming a lot about sexual predators and violence. There are estimates thay 20% of sexual offenders experience sexual dsyfunction (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6962056/); the rate of violent recidivism among sex offenders is ~17% while the sex offense recidivism is ~5% (Chapter 5: Adult Sex Offender Recidivism homicide offenders have a lower rate of psychopathy than other offender groups (Homicide offenders have lower levels of psychopathy and sadism compared to other convicts, study finds), etc.
sorry but i dont get this
sexual offence in itself is an act of violation and violence..but sexual offenders are supposed to be harmless !
 
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