IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #46

[otto]

There's a road that runs right under the bridge. Why not just park there?

It's a private driveway, whereas the cemetery is a public place where a car would not be considered out of place, and the cemetery is close to the location where the bodies were found.

 

[LadyL]

they were well within guidelines for issuing an Amber Alert

https://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm

One thing I will point out is that on the day the girls went missing there was an Amber Alert put out for a girl out of Gary, Indiana. It went out at least 3 times - approx. 5:45pm on the 13th, approx 11:15pm on the 13th, approx 7:25am on the 14th. That Amber Alert never mentioned a vehicle or any description of a person that had taken her. As it turns out the girl is the suspect in the murder of her mother and it is my strong opinion that the Gary, Indiana police knew that long before they issued the Amber Alert. It was an abuse of the Amber Alert program as far as I am concerned. State police and local and county law enforcement would have been looking out for that girl during almost all the time Abby and Libby were missing.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Another point I will put badly. Small town girl, who grew up with creeks and small rivers. They were deep in spots and shallow in others. As teens, we crossed them on trails without bridges all the time if it was the shortest way to get where we wanted to go. Didn't think about "slippery rocks" or "this could be dangerous ". I can totally see the girls trying to get across the creek to get away, or being ordered across it. To me, moo, not a stretch.


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The water temperature was likely in the mid to upper 30's. Would you, as teens, go traipsing through water that cold? That would make your feet quite cold and they would stay cold. The brain's response to such things is to make it worse by restricting circulation to the extremities such as your feet (along with hands are the first things). So, that is what the problem is with crossing the creek at all.

It gets worse if it were any deeper than ankle high. Wet clothes, particularly denim, soak in a lot water (I am sure you know just how much heavier wet jeans are compared to dry jeans) and that will end up in contact with the skin. So cold legs that won't get any warmer - water is 20 times more efficient in transferring heat than air and in this circumstance the water is going to draw heat from the body remarkably fast until the temperature of the wet denim and the surface skin of the legs are the same which will be quite a lot below 98.6 degrees (much closer to the air temperature which was about 43 degrees) and the brain will respond to this by restricting blood flow to the upper skin layers of the legs. All of the restricted blow flow reduces oxygen to the muscles and makes it harder to use those muscles. You tire quickly - well, because the muscles need the oxygen.

The only way to not be really cold is to remove the wet clothes/shoes and replace with dry clothes/shoes in a warm place.

BG would have this problem. I can't imagine that he would find having very cold feet (or worse, legs) bearable for any length of time. It is more than being wet. "slippery rocks" or "this could be dangerous" would or should have been the least of the concerns. If BG and the girls crossed the creek - which I strongly believe did not happen - BG would have discovered all of this the hard way.

 

[Wsimm]

So many people seem sold on the idea that they crossed the creek that day; just would've been too risky to go back north. But crossing the creek you're still visible for quite a while and you're going to get wet. The guy in the video doesn't seem dressed to cross the creek. he would have been feeling the effects quickly on a 42° day. He would have been uncomfortable and at risk of hypothermia. So what is the thinking here? Murder then leaves immediately. If so why cross the creek?

In one of my very first posts I doubted that the girls crossed the bridge. After reading that family members have said both girls have not only walked it, but many times, I started thinking otherwise. After viewing GH's last video as well as seeing the crime tape still visible on the SE side....I can't help but think it's more than a possibility they crossed it.


I can't comprehend that BG would be concerned with hypothermia for himself and definitely not for the girls! IMO, the creek is very shallow in the area of the crime scene. Would feet get wet?.....yes. Would water come up to mid calf?......Yes. It was a mid 40's day, but the weather was beautiful and the sun was shining. It could of easily felt like mid 50's or even close to 60.


IMO, what ever happened to these girls happened fast and control was taken quickly. So quickly that "cold feet" never crossed anyone's mind!

 

[Eileen730]

:what:

I tend to think they were both dead by the time people started searching for them, but there is very little about this case in which I could say "I have no doubt".

I think one was still alive and died the next day.
I think her family was told this. Jmo

 

[lonetraveler]

Sorry, so slow to catch on. It seems so obvious now... do I get to still play the new card?


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:facepalm: Heck, why not use the new card, I still try to get away with it.

 

[Jethro4WS]

This topographic map suggests that this area, directly South of the cemetery, would be an isolated place, and it would be easy for the suspect the walk to a vehicle parked at the cemetery. In fact, footage of so many police vehicles at the cemetery suggests that the location is significant.

Yes, I believe that the cemetery is very important as an access point. However, I believe it was only used as the place where a vehicle was parked when bringing the girls to where they were found - since I believe the girls were taken elsewhere for a significant amount of time (many hours) and killed elsewhere.

 

[Jethro4WS]

When distance is provided from CS to bridge, what end of the bridge are they measuring from? The bridge itself is quite long- about 1/6 mile isn't it so that would make a difference?

If you look at NIN's map of it you will see distances from both the North and South ends of the bridge. But if you are looking at anything in the media, they are going by what LE said and I am of the strong opinion that LE is not talking about from the Monon High Bridge but rather the Freedom Bridge at the beginning of the official trail that leads to the Monon High Bridge.

 

[layer]

So I still don't see him taking them across the creek and I am therefore thinking he doubled back and caught up to them on the north end of the bridge and pulled a gun then. The only reason the south side of the creek is taped off was so that they could search for any evidence he might have thrown across the creek.,

The south side of the creek wasn't taped off, it was the south side of the bridge that was taped off. The reason I believe they were led from the south side of the bridge is because the crime scene is very close and easy to travel, with the exception of crossing the creek. The north side of the bridge is like three times farther from the crime scene, and it is not easy to travel.

 

[otto]

Yes, I believe that the cemetery is very important as an access point. However, I believe it was only used as the place where a vehicle was parked when bringing the girls to where they were found - since I believe the girls were taken elsewhere for a significant amount of time (many hours) and killed elsewhere.

I don't see anyone dragging two bodies from the cemetery to the location where the bodies were found.

I suppose there are two possibilities. It's possible that the suspect parked on the private driveway, abducted the girls, and then drove somewhere with them, and alternatively he forced them to cross the river where the water level is ankle deep (per the helicopter video), and murdered them closer to a vehicle parked at the cemetery.

I think it's unlikely that he abducted the girls at the park, drove them somewhere else, and then returned them to the park. That is extremely risky in terms of getting caught, and I don't think the suspect is stupid enough to make that mistake.

 

[WebSight]

I am just accustomed to using a search engine with keywords to locate information. Nothing wrong with the media thread at all.

My point was that a many people will ask other WSers, like yourself for instance, for links or information that is easily attainable.

It was a gentle reminder that much of the information is readily available and that the conversation is much richer when we come to the table with something to share.

I think that sometimes people are not aware of the treasure trove of information provided on those media threads and I just wanted to put it out there.

 

[Hazelnutty]

You don't think it had to do with the SM death threats? I'm having a really hard time trying to figure out why so much attention on RL and why LE ISN'T coming out one way or the other about him.

IMO if the presence of sheriff and chief was for protection from death threats RL would have been wearing a bullet proof vest and the sheriff would have been wearing one, they would be doing a heads down quickstep.. IMO sheriff and Chief are there in person to make sure things are going by the book and no slip ups occur that would affect the trial. IMO we are getting a visual of a clean, well- cared for Perp, walking in under his own steam, not limping, not bruised/beaten up. We were spectators to a well- thought out and planned Perp Walk. IMO some have speculated that RL is being held for his own protection, or even as bait to get the actual BG to slip up, make mistakes, etc. IMO We were seeing a man, regardless of age, with the look of someone who is not just there for repeatedly drunk driving and repeatedly behaving like He is above the law and just doesn't give a crap about the welfare of other people. He didn't look scared or anxious, he didn't look ashamed. He looks like a man knee- deep in something that has nothing to do with drunk driving. I dont know him. This is just my opinion. I don't know if he's guilty of what was done to these girls. But, when it rains , it pours & this man is soaking wet.

JMOHO

 

[layer]

It's a private driveway, whereas the cemetery is a public place where a car would not be considered out of place, and the cemetery is close to the location where the bodies were found.

BBM
My understanding is that it is not a private driveway until it gets to the house. There is no gate. I have been hoping one of our local people would drive over there and report on it.

 

[kat913]

It was also the closest and easiest access point to where the girls were found. At the southwest corner of the cemetery there is a path that heads south and if you follow it all the way down you will end up at the creek. At the bottom you can walk about 200 to 300 feet to where the girls were found.

Jethro...didn't you actually see this path? So, terrain is fairly easy to walk down to creek from cemetary?

 

[LadyL]

there was no 'exception' made - they followed guidelines

https://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm

I did see that this seemed to break from the normal protocol. It was said the girl's mother was the victim of a crime and the girl was thought to be in extreme danger...guessing the circumstances led to an exception being made, ay?


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[Jethro4WS]

I quoted an article upthread a few pages that said the searchers had 20-25 square miles to search. In the dark.

That was part of the search on the 14th not on the 13th. And, once again, the scanner thread will give you a better idea of what was going on. I much prefer to take the words said directly by the search command center to the search helicopter pilot or the State Police or Fire units over a sentence or two in the MSM articles. Really, the MSM did not report on the search itself much at all, and what they did report was inaccurate - neither dog search or dive teams in the water occurred before the girls were found yet MSM reports say mention them as if they had.

 

[Wsimm]

Why weren't there more police officers around the van RL was transported in when he was taken out to go into the courthouse? He didn't appear to have a BPV on that I could tell. There was Sheriff Leazenby and another deputy who, btw, was wearing a vest but the Sheriff wasn't. The Sheriff either isn't a terribly busy man, which I doubt, he only has one deputy, which I also doubt, or something smells like smoke. MOO

Absolute agreement! Less about protection and more of a show of presence!

 

[Yvettea]

Yes, I believe that the cemetery is very important as an access point. However, I believe it was only used as the place where a vehicle was parked when bringing the girls to where they were found - since I believe the girls were taken elsewhere for a significant amount of time (many hours) and killed elsewhere.

I don't believe they were killed elsewhere. I believe they were walked to the location where they died.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Is there an official link to the info about the grid and cross sections of the search, or was that just assumptions by posters? TIA

No link that I know of. I expect a true grid search was not done on the night of the 13th.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

IMO if the presence of sheriff and chief was for protection from death threats RL would have been wearing a bullet proof vest and the sheriff would have been wearing one, they would be doing a heads down quickstep.. IMO sheriff and Chief are there in person to make sure things are going by the book and no slip ups occur that would affect the trial. IMO we are getting a visual of a clean, well- cared for Perp, walking in under his own steam, not limping, not bruised/beaten up. We were spectators to a well- thought out and planned Perp Walk. IMO some have speculated that RL is being held for his own protection, or even as bait to get the actual BG to slip up, make mistakes, etc. IMO We were seeing a man, regardless of age, with the look of someone who is not just there for repeatedly drunk driving and repeatedly behaving like He is above the law and just doesn't give a crap about the welfare of other people. He didn't look scared or anxious, he didn't look ashamed. He looks like a man knee- deep in something that has nothing to do with drunk driving. I dont know him. This is just my opinion. I don't know if he's guilty of what was done to these girls. But, when it rains , it pours & this man is soaking wet.

JMOHO

BBM

I respect you are voicing your opinion but disagree that one can make the assumption I bolded on someone they do not know.