IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #66

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[travel]
This shows the power of one word. It is magnificent that you caught the omitted word, travel.

Your thoughtful analysis of Sgt Holeman's interview is appreciated.



Sgt Holeman slights FB and social media for spreading rumors or untruths. He 'dances a jig' around the Flow of the Crime. There is a popular crime flow video that some view as complete gospel end to end. It has created, in many minds, the precise tracings of BG and the two girls. May it be repeated that video expresses an opinion and not one verified officially by LE.
I would expect if the investigator thought otherwise, he would not have painted that scenario. He is now telling anyone who may have thought they saw the girls with him on the path, or in a car, that they didn't and there is no need to come forward with that information.

I would think with the release of the sketch, LE would want any tip if someone saw that man in the sketch with two girls in a car, and a description of the car. He makes it sound like they went down the hill through the brush and crossed the creek. If there was evidence otherwise, I suspect he would have chosen his words more carefully.

He would likely have stated something like the timeline is, as always, a work in progress, and that if anyone saw this man anywhere in the area, to call the tip line.

He is quite clear about what they have evidence of just previous to that. He was asked if this person committed crimes like this previously. He is careful to say they do not have evidence of that, but they speculate, and investigate that theory.

Would he then be so sloppy in his choice of words and information he puts out there?
 
Not a moderator but the constant bickering and snark is going to get this thread shut down. :twocents:
 
Not a moderator but the constant bickering and snark is going to get this thread shut down. :twocents:

Perhaps it is time to scroll and roll past posts that are causing the constant bickering? The only thing we ultimately need to be right about is justice for these young girls and their families. However LE gets there is ok by me. Dancing a jig around the crime flow as Dee said was done for strategic purposes IMHO. Hopefully it did what it was meant to do and I don't think it was to cause constant bickering on WS;)
 
[travel]
This shows the power of one word. It is magnificent that you caught the omitted word, travel.

Your thoughtful analysis of Sgt Holeman's interview is appreciated.



Sgt Holeman slights FB and social media for spreading rumors or untruths. He 'dances a jig' around the Flow of the Crime. There is a popular crime flow video that some view as complete gospel end to end. It has created, in many minds, the precise tracings of BG and the two girls. May it be repeated that video expresses an opinion and not one verified officially by LE.
Exactly! That video is just one more persons "guess" at the events of the day. Unless it's from law enforcement, take it with a grain of salt.
 
<snip>
.So they walked 1/2-3/4 mile from the bridge,through terrain such as the detective spoke,waded across a flowing creek,took the time to disrobe the girls(per info found here at WS),did whatever he did to them and then ultimately killed them, all within a span of 30-40 min. I dunno man,sounds sketchy to me. http://websleuths.com/forums/showth...iberty-German-14-Delphi-13-Feb-2017-19/page66 scroll down thru the posts to see the screenshot.

My theory is they were forced from the SE end, to the CS. A straight line from the SE end of the bridge to the CS (depending on where the actual CS is located) is roughly 550-700 or so feet, much less than a 1/4 mile, in fact closer to a 1/8.

JMO
 
The DNA might have been logged from a past crime, but if the criminal had not been arrested and swabbed before there would be no name-to-DNA association

This brings to mind the murder of Hannah Graham and her killer Jesse Matthew. His very first victim (that we know of) was able to survive her attack in Fairfax, VA, in 2005. His DNA was obtained. His DNA was matched up with DNA left involving Morgan Harrington's death. So we had matching DNA for two crimes but not the suspect. Thankfully, the cameras on businesses captured Jesse Matthew as he stalked Hannah and witnesses saw him leave with her. Perhaps this is the case here. LE has someone in their radar (we hope) and they are building their solid case.
 
I think it's ok to debate BUT we have to be debating facts. Guessing or surmising isn't going to get us where we need to be, which is having this case solved. I think lots of posts are re-posts of prior debated/explored issues and may be time consuming for some, therefore frustrating. Also, people who drop in after extended absences, refresh yourself with the discussions that you missed. Easy peasy! Everyone here is great and although I'm new, I truly enjoy reading these posts! Thanks to all of you for your valued time. IMOO

:bump: Excellent post and advice Sleuthin!
 
:bump: Excellent post and advice Sleuthin!
Except that those who keep insisting on others' need to "stick to the facts", also post their own guessing and surmising. (Speculation) Typically, the need to "stick to the facts" is a knee-jerk reaction to their own theory being questioned.

This is an open forum for all, new and veteran, and all opinions should be respected. A new piece of information or theory should be welcomed and debated as to why it is likely or unlikely, plausible or not plausible given what we know. What we actually know should also be fair game for discussion.
 
I would expect if the investigator thought otherwise, he would not have painted that scenario. He is now telling anyone who may have thought they saw the girls with him on the path, or in a car, that they didn't and there is no need to come forward with that information.

I would think with the release of the sketch, LE would want any tip if someone saw that man in the sketch with two girls in a car, and a description of the car. He makes it sound like they went down the hill through the brush and crossed the creek. If there was evidence otherwise, I suspect he would have chosen his words more carefully.

He would likely have stated something like the timeline is, as always, a work in progress, and that if anyone saw this man anywhere in the area, to call the tip line.

He is quite clear about what they have evidence of just previous to that. He was asked if this person committed crimes like this previously. He is careful to say they do not have evidence of that, but they speculate, and investigate that theory.

Would he then be so sloppy in his choice of words and information he puts out there?
He is now telling anyone who may have thought they saw the girls with him on the path, or in a car, that they didn't and there is no need to come forward with that information.

When did Holeman say there is no need to come forward? He didn't. Please, stop.

Quote Originally Posted by BIC View Post
BBM
It was clearly stated in one of the recent interviews with LE that they crossed the creek. POST #186 Thread 65. Spellbounds transcription.
A: When you walked down and I walked through, that was private property right where the bodies were found. Looking at it logistically from where they were on the bridge and to where their bodies were found, I know we talked about the terrain in the past. I know it's not an easy thing to navigate. Usually you might have to be familiar with the area. I mean, would it have been difficult for the girls to [travel] from where they were on the bridge to where they were found?

H: [10:49] Yeah. Absolutely. I think it would be difficult, obviously. They have to go through some pretty steep terrain in a wooded area, sticker bushes and things like that, so it's uh ... and then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature. So yeah, it would have been difficult for .... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way.

It would be obviously difficult for them to cross the creek
so it's uh ... and
Holeman grapples for the proper words to say.
then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature.
Holeman continues
So yeah, it would have been difficult for
Holeman doesn't finish that thought. Instead, he admits
.... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way.

Would he then be so sloppy in his choice of words and information he puts out there?

Oh, DarkStink, I do not feel Sgt Holeman was sloppy with his words. In fact, I found him to be most careful with each chosen word. And, that is my last word on this particular subject.
 
When did Holeman say there is no need to come forward? He didn't. Please, stop.




It would be obviously difficult for them to cross the creek
so it's uh ... and
Holeman grapples for the proper words to say.
then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature.
Holeman continues
So yeah, it would have been difficult for
Holeman doesn't finish that thought. Instead, he admits
.... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way.



Oh, DarkStink, I do not feel Sgt Holeman was sloppy with his words. In fact, I found him to be most careful with each chosen word. And, that is my last word on this particular subject.
It begs the question then why, when they just released the sketch, would he intentionally mislead the public as to where they walked after the perp first accosted victims?

What is more likely? He's being honest or deliberately narrowing witnesses' recollection with false and misleading information?
 
This is the April Tinsley murder. I wrote a giant treatise on it in the thread previous to this one but others have also brought it up as a case thst should be looked at for its possible similarities to the Delphi murders. It occurred in 1988 and the killer taunted police/the community for 14 years. There is also an extensive thread here on Websleuths about it. If you check out my previous post you can even see a Parabon snapshot of the killer to compare to the sketch of BG. Fort Wayne is 95 minutes from Delphi. It's a fairly straight shot down SR 25 from Fort Wayne to Delphi. The killer of April Tinsley is thought to be in his late 40s to late 50s now.


April Tinsley's CS in Fort Wayne

Tinsley's Crime Scene, FtWayne.jpg
 
When did Holeman say there is no need to come forward? He didn't. Please, stop.




It would be obviously difficult for them to cross the creek
so it's uh ... and
Holeman grapples for the proper words to say.
then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature.
Holeman continues
So yeah, it would have been difficult for
Holeman doesn't finish that thought. Instead, he admits
.... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way.



Oh, DarkStink, I do not feel Sgt Holeman was sloppy with his words. In fact, I found him to be most careful with each chosen word. And, that is my last word on this particular subject.

Please tell me what you think he means by "I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way." To me that means they wouldn't have gone that way unless they were forced. Why would he even bring up crossing the creek?


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Please tell me what you think he means by "I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way." To me that means they wouldn't have gone that way unless they were forced. Why would he even bring up crossing the creek?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's my thought as well. His stumbling seems more like he was caught off guard by the way the question was asked. I suspect the interviewer asked it in that way to get at the details of where they walked.

"Was it difficult" isn't really what the interviewer wants to know. It's more like "Did they go this route?" without asking it directly. A direct question like that typically gets a non-response.
 
I'm re-thinking the cyber aspect of this crime due to a recent case in Plainfield, Indiana. This guy was never in Indiana so he's not BG but I wonder if LE were considering a Delphi connection in the beginning. They just caught him on Aug. 7.

I'm posting these snips and links to show it can take a long time to track down cyber crimes.

http://fox59.com/2017/08/06/attorney-to-announce-federal-charges-in-plainfield-cyber-threats-case/
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...d-in-brian-kil-plainfield-school-threats-case
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/crime/what-took-the-brian-kil-arrest-so-long

Brian Kil was the name used by a guy who turned Plainfield (and at least 2 other towns) upsidedown in an attempt to become the worst cyber terrorist who ever lived. He started by hacking teen girls' cloud accounts.

Using online accounts, Hernandez (real name) approached minors and said he had lewd or sexually explicit videos and photos, court documents said. He then asked for more and threatened to expose them unless they sent additional photos and videos.

From Dec. 17, 2015, through Jan. 11, 2016, Hernandez opened 10 Facebook accounts in order to make threats and then disabled them, investigators said. From Jan. 11, 2016, through Jan. 27, 2016, he opened and closed 14 Facebook accounts. Hernandez opened an additional two accounts on Feb. 16, 2017.

In the federal indictment, Hernandez said he wanted to ratchet up the drama and compared the threats to a soap opera. In a series of Facebook posts, he admitted he never knew the Plainfield teen, referring to her as “unlucky” for getting hacked.

“Truth is, I lied about knowing her,” Hernandez wrote on Facebook. “I don’t know [Victim 1]. I’ve never met her. She’s just a girl who was very unlucky and had her cloud storage hacked. From there I dragged her through the mud by spreading lies and misinformation to reach my goals that really had no relation with her whatsoever. I basically used her as an access point to attack an entire town.”

Hernandez said he made it all up. His demand for an “apology” from the victim and her mother was a complete fabrication.
 
That's my thought as well. His stumbling seems more like he was caught off guard by the way the question was asked. I suspect the interviewer asked it in that way to get at the details of where they walked.

"Was it difficult" isn't really what the interviewer wants to know. It's more like "Did they go this route?" without asking it directly. A direct question like that typically gets a non-response.

Yes. There so much info they are holding back, little bits keep slipping every time they speak. Just like when they released the sketch, he slipped and said "she" said, before trying to cover it up.


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