The content in the final episode of DTH is nothing more than a discussion of theories – which isn’t relevant here.
The notes I’ve taken from both podcasts – Down the Hill & Scene of the Crime – are lengthy. So, I’ve compiled a list of links to all of the posts in one place. I’ve also included a link to each podcast episode.
(An article with a few good bridge and private driveway pics as well as some perspective from a local. It has as a video from Oct 23rd 2016 showing close ups of the bridge and looking down below beneath and beside the bridge. (listen to it on mute!)
Some of the article's content to be taken with a grain 'o' salt. )
I transcribed the Best Case Worst Case Delphi podcast episodes way back when but forgot to share them with the media thread.
Best Case Worst Case is a podcast hosted by former federal prosecutor Francey Hakes and Retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent & Profiler Jim Clemente. For this particular discussion, they invited two additional retired FBI Special Agents to join them, Maureen O’Connell and Bobby Chacon.
BEST CASE WORST CASE SCENARIO: THE DELPHI MURDERS (Episode 123)
PART 1 – Released April 25, 2019
Clemente Hello and welcome to Best Case Worst Case. This is Jim Clemente. Retired FBI Profiler, former New York City Prosecutor, and writer/producer on CBS’s Criminal Minds.
And with me today is --
Hakes Hi, everybody. It’s former state and federal prosecutor Francey Hakes. Jim, we’re in the studio. We’re together. We’re in California together. This is like a miracle.
Clemente It is pretty much that, yes. Because, well you know, getting us in the same room at the same time is kinda difficult sometimes.
Hakes It has been a challenge lately. And even more exciting – and I’m sure our listeners are going to be thrilled because they’re always clamoring (yes, I used the word intentionally – clamoring) – to have these two guests back. And we’ve gotten them IN the studio together. And they are –
Chacon Bobby Chacon. Retired FBI Special Agent.
O’Connell Maureen O’Connell. Retired FBI Special Agent.
Hakes I feel—I feel a little surrounded.
O’Connell I am getting a little overwhelmed, guys. THREE former FBI agents in the same room. But since I was always the boss, I think it’s fine. I can handle it.
[Laughter]
Clemente Why don’t we just put that to rest right away. *The boss!* You were like 18 when I started working at the FBI.
O’Connell Yes, that’s probably true.
Clemente AND I became a Supervisory Special Agent. I don’t believe you were ever a supervisor there. I don’t know but –
[Talking over one another and teasing each other.]
O’Connell FINE.
[Laughter]
Clemente Anyway… yeah, it’s –
Hakes It’s great to be together. It’s great to be in the studio and it’s great to have you guys with us, Bobby and Maureen. Because, all joking aside, what I really wanted to talk to you about and talk about today is a topic that practically the whole country is talking about, and that is the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. Two little girls in Delphi, Indiana.
Yesterday, there was a press conference. There were all sorts of things going on. Let me just give a quick overview for those of our listeners who are not familiar with it.
Back a couple of years ago, in 2017 in Delphi, Indiana (which is about an hour or so from Indianapolis), two teenage girls, 13 and 14, Abby Williams and Libby German, went on a hike over a trestle bridge on a trail that is –
It’s very popular in Delphi. It’s not like a regionally popular trail, but it is something the locals know all about. They were dropped off by an older sister, and they were going to go on a hike. They did not come to the meeting place that day and were reported missing.
Tragically, their bodies were discovered by searchers the following day and they’d both been murdered. And we don’t know the cause of death.
Libby German managed to capture some audio and video of a person of interest, who may or may not be the killer, on her phone.
[Audio Plays]
A sketch and some audio was released a couple of years ago, but this week there was a press conference. And that’s what I want to talk to you all about.
So, I want to kind of go a little bit back in time, and then we’ll move forward to discuss what happened in the press conference. But let’s talk first, let’s go back in time.
Jim, I want to ask you first of all, a question we always get on social media. You’ve got someone who has obviously killed and you don’t know if they were sexually assaulted. What’s the motivation for the murder? Uh, because the police have not released it. But some person has taken the life of two teenage girls. What motivates someone like that? How can anyone kill teenage girls like that?
Clemente Well, unfortunately, if you’re looking at the motivations for these, the vast majority of them are sexual in nature. And, unfortunately, that’s, you know, a sad reality. That’s probably the most likely.
The other motivations in child abduction homicides are greed, somebody getting in the way of, uh, a relationship, and, um –
Chacon Like Chris Watts when he killed those – his two daughters.
Clemente Yes.
Chacon If – I believe that’s right. That was – that was getting in the way of his relationship.
Clemente And also, there are some cases in which people just – they have a lust for murder and they want to try it. So, you have murders without a motive, generally, in serial cases. So, you can, you know, you can pretty much rule out most of those. And, you know, it’s unfortunate. But you know, I hope they didn’t suffer in that way, but it’s, you know, a strong possibility.
Hakes Well, the other thing that I had when I first heard about this case originally – and I understand there were two young girls – but the audio portion of, uh, what Libby captured on her phone, to me was significant. Because if this is the killer, he told them to go down the hill in kind of a command.But to me – Jim, I’m wondering what you think? And then I want to ask you guys this as well, Bobby and Maureen. What do you think about the difficulty level, if you will, of controlling two teenage girls?These aren’t, you know, six or seven-year-old girls. These are thirteen and fourteen-year-old girls.
Clemente And he probably had a weapon. I mean, that’s just the easy go-to thing. I know that people have analyzed pictures of him, and uh, they see shapes and forms that could be a gun or some other type of holster type weapon. So, it’s most likely that.
Also, these are probably, you know, good girls. And, unfortunately, killers sometimes use the victims own—
Hakes Lures.
Clemente Yeah, they use lures. But they also use the victim’s own politeness and social graces to get somebody into a position where they’re now more vulnerable.
O’Connell Manners. When an adult tells you to do something – I grew up in the south – when an adult tells you to do something, you do it.
Clemente But the fact that Libby took the pictures tells me that she was fairly certain that something bad was happening.
O’Connell She knew for sure.
And then they did an audio, as well. And going back, uh, to piggyback on what you said. We saw an initial grainy photograph back in 2017 when these girls were abducted and murdered. And in that photography, I remember thinking that this guy was a very heavyset person. But the significance of the video they put out yesterday, shows a person – if you look at his legs and the movement – his legs look rather thin. That there is a lot of stuff shoved into his jacket and he also has a fanny pack on. Um, and you can see the gape caused by this, um –
Clemente Bulk.
O’Connell Bulk, exactly. Between the, uh, between the buttons. So, uh, he could have had what could be described as like a kill kit or something of that nature in there. Or a gun or something.
Clemente Yeah, it could be. You know, the fact is that he was clearly kind of trying to disguise himself – hide his identity and probably hide whatever he used to threaten them. And it was very effective.
Chacon And Libby’s grandfather is quite sure that she took those pictures and that audio – or that video and that audio – because she thought there was something wrong with him. I think he even said like, “I think she was probably gonna come back home and tell me – Look, I saw this strange man hanging out at the park.”
Hakes You know – and Bobby, that leads me to another question I wanted to ask you as a trained investigator. I think that that is such a significant piece of evidence. Because you’re talking about something that I believe must have been surreptitiously recorded. Or else don’t you think the offender would’ve taken the phone with him?
Chacon Oh, it was. I don’t have any doubt that. It was surreptitiously recorded.
And, if in fact it was like I believe, then it clearly shows that her motivation was to capture this man on tape – who she felt very uncomfortable with for whatever reason. And she wanted to capture that audio and video. I mean, this is a very wise young girl doing this, and it may ultimately lead to capturing her killer.
Clemente Yeah, it comes back to what Gavin DeBecker wrote about in The Gift of Fear. You have to listen to your instincts. Your primitive brain has protective mechanisms, and it calculates the risks of things that you do and things that are going on.And that’s why – and it tells you what’s going on and when you should be afraid, by giving you that feeling where the hair stands up on the back of your neck, or you get chills, or goosebumps, or you get a real sick feeling in the pit of your stomach. That’s your brain actually telling you there’s something wrong. Be careful. Be on edge. Be hypervigilant. Be aware of your situation.
Situational awareness is obviously something that Libby exhibited here. She clearly understood that this guy was not there for good reasons. That he had nefarious intent. And, thankfully, because of that we have some leads in this case. Otherwise, we’d have almost nothing.
Hakes This brings up a great point that I want to ask you all.
As investigators who have investigated – between you – probably thousands of crimes when this case originally happened, when police originally released some of the video, some of the audio, and the sketch two years ago, they said – quote, “There was more evidence relating to the suspect on the phone, but we’re not going to release it in order to avoid compromising a future trial.”
Now, as a former prosecutor, I know what I think about that. But can you all explain to me and to our listeners why there would be some evidence police would withhold in a case where you don’t know who the suspect is? Maureen, why don’t we start with you.
O’Connell Well, because the police are always going to protect the, um, integrity of the investigation. That’s the number one thing.
And, you know, the first thing that comes to my mind is that, uh, forensic genealogy – because that has not yet been tested in court. But I – it’s become – that’s come out on so many other murders that it doesn’t seem likely to me at this point.
Clemente Well, I think that – just generally talking about the fact that they always hold back information – it’s necessary because in case you get a confession. It’s the way that you suss out false confessions. It’s the way that you drill down and find out if the person actually knows what they’re talking about. So, it’s normal.
I would assume that that information is of a kind that they are releasing. In other words, they are releasing part of it but not all of it. And that’s really important, I think. They did release more of it yesterday, and I think that they probably still have held stuff back.
Chacon Sure. My default position was always don’t release anything in my investigation unless it aids the investigation. I have no obligation to anyone outside the investigation. My obligation is to track down the perpetrator of the crime in a way that’s going to allow someone like yourself to prosecute the person successfully.
There IS a certain obligation to the family. We have special victim witness people that handle that stuff. But as far as the evidence in the case, I even have to always be careful what you tell the family. Sometimes that comes off as looking insensitive.
We often get – “Oh, the family’s not being updated by the police.” Well, let me tell you something. Most of the cases – and you saw it yesterday at the press conference – the police are living this case emotionally. They are not abusing the family in any way. If they’re withholding information, it has everything to do with the validity of this investigation, and protecting the – the investigation and capturing the perpetrator. It has nothing to do with wanting to withhold from the family.
Clemente The family doesn’t WANT to know information that will end up hurting the prosecution down the road. So, they typically understand.
Of course, if the investigation goes on unsolved for years and decades, the family can get very frustrated. But still, if in the end their goal is to actually get a suspect arrested, and have a successful prosecution, and get justice for their family member or their loved one, well then in the end, the sacrifice they have to make in not knowing the details, that’s a very worthy sacrifice.
O’Connell Although – although we don’t want to admit it, oftentimes the big leaks from investigations DO come from the family members because they ARE so emotional. And, rightfully so.
So, we don’t tell them everything because we don’t want them sharing that information with other people.
Hakes Well, and I have to wonder whether – when they said in 2017 they have more evidence on the phone but aren’t releasing it – I have to wonder how much of the crime might have been captured on Libby’s phone. Because you’re talking about us only having a snippet and there’s certainly evidence – if you think about it in the reverse – that the offender never knew that he was being captured on the phone. Because otherwise you’d think he would have taken it with him.
So, you have to wonder how much evidence of the actual crime itself is on the phone.
Chacon And the chief said yesterday... “that you want to know how much we have and someday you’ll find out.”
Hakes Yeah, well we’ll talk about that in just a minute. I want to get to the press conference, but first I want to talk a little bit about what makes investigations like this one so challenging.
I think that a lot of the public wonders what is taking so long. And I know that for me, a press conference two years later with a brand new sketch – it makes it seem like “well why didn’t you give us this information two years ago?”
But you understand that it – as of June of the year that these little girls were killed, Libby and Abby were killed –they had received 18,000 tips with at least 4 to 5 new tips coming in daily. That has to be overwhelming.
Clemente Yeah, but that is not unusual and the FBI has these rapid deployment teams – Rapid Deployment Child Abduction Deployment Teams – and they also have teams that are set up to deal with massive amounts of data. And, they do. You remember the, the —
Chacon The software that’s used to take all the incoming leads and divvy them out to different people and different units and things like that.
O’Connell So, you can track them properly. So, the FBI does have software. It tracks every single one of these leads, and the, um, the chief also said yesterday that we have a witness. So –
Clemente Right. And here’s the thing, Francey.
You know, to answer people who think “why now – why are they releasing this now?” Because it may have been the arrest of that one guy who fit that description very well a couple days ago. That may have been them finally ruling him out as the killer. And so, now they have more confidence and it is the perfect time to release this other sketch of this other person that has now become the primary suspect in this case. And from what the cops said, they probably have some other reasons to suspect him as well.
Chacon You also have to understand [that] releasing a sketch is a huge responsibility. It’s irresponsible of you to do that if you don’t have a high degree of confidence that that’s the perpetrator.
Because what you’re going to do is you’re going to have a whole host of people that look like this sketch getting harassed. You’re going to have their neighbors looking at them. You’re going to have friends looking at them and saying you look just like the guy in the sketch, and that’s the last thing that you want.
Hakes Well – and I think there’s just that natural tension between finding the perpetrator who’s completely unknown and releasing information. And I think that’s – it seems to me that it’s almost a last resort to release information to the public. Because you worry about all the things that you all have talked about. On the other hand, if you’ve got no more investigative avenues to explore, what do you do?
So, let’s talk a little bit about, um, Maureen, let’s talk a little bit about DNA. We don’t know the cause of death of these, uh, two little girls. We have no idea what exactly happened to them, but my guess and my pure speculation is that there was, as Jim said, a sexual element to this. And that the children were left in such a state that there almost has to have been DNA left on them.
But, I want to be a little bit careful because I saw something on TV – some supposed expert on the other day talking about touch DNA on television – talking about touch DNA and said that technology is such that if the killer touched so and so’s clothes that we should find DNA and that is misleading. We MIGHT find DNA.
Clemente Right. Because how were the bodies disposed of? What was the time of year? What was the weather conditions? All that kind of stuff. Was there water involved?
But here’s the thing – when I said sexual motives, I am not necessarily talking about what people would consider traditional sexual assault. There could be many different things that are sexual for an offender.
And so, you may not have, you know, what you might expect in a rape case which is semen. You might not have that. And an offender – even if he has an intent to do that – may not be able to consummate that rape. So, there’s all sorts of things that can happen that are sexual for an offender that –
I mean we’ve arrested people for, for example, spanking someone. That was sexual to the offender. And it was obvious because of what they did, and the type of *advertiser censored* they collected, and their fantasy material. But that was actually a sexual experience for them. There are many different things that people will – will get off sexually on and it doesn’t have to be, like I said, traditional sex.
Hakes Well, let’s talk. I’d like to ask you, Maureen.It sounds to me like this was without a doubt a difficult crime scene. You’re talking about nature. You’re talking about being a half mile off a trail. So, it was February. So, it was cold and possibly wet in Indiana. There may have been snow or snow melt in that part of Indiana.So, can you talk a little bit about what would’ve been your goals if you had been in charge of this crime scene involving these two children in those conditions?
O’Connell Well, the first thing we would do is cordon everything off and pay particular attention to the pathway that they took down to wherever he told them to get down to. And the reason we do that is because there will be boot prints, shoe prints. We could see potentially the positions they were in as he led them down this hill. But also, because, um, it was probably his, um, egress route. So, uh, we would we would cordon that off.
Hakes I’m sorry, what’s an egress route?
O’Connell Uh, how he got out. The path that he took out. So, those are the things we would initially be looking at.
We would, I – I just have the feeling – and this is just a feeling based on the information that we’ve received so far from the police and that in the presser yesterday – that, um, they may have been posed or staged. And I – I think, Bobby, you were in LA when we worked that case with that beautiful young victim, Samantha Runyon. And she too was posed. And, that was one time, um, Francey, where I saw a hardened seasoned homicide detective cry.
So, it’s that type of thing. It’s the victimization on top of the victimization, the piling on that these people do for their own personal gratification. So, in a situation like that there’s going to be a lot of evidence. And there’s going to be a lot of evidence that has to be very, very, very carefully collected and then maintained.
Clemente The fact is [that] when an offender moves victims, he moves them to a place of greater privacy and control. And so, he may have had a particular lair set up there where he wanted to take them once we got them. And maybe he was waiting for a girl to walk by and it just happened to be two. So, he took them both.
But I don’t think he could’ve known – they couldn’t have been targeted victims. I don’t think he could’ve known that they were going to be there. I think he set up his trap and they fell into it. But he needed to get them to a particular place so he could have privacy to do what he wanted to do.
O’Connell Or, you know, following along on that part of his, um, sexual gratification could be taking them to another place and building a lair where he can do what he’s doing. But you’re right... he — he, in moving them, it does say a lot about this person. And everything he did, every move he made, is another signature and these signatures add up.
Hakes Okay, so Maureen. When you’re talking about a complicated crime scene like this – where there actually could be multiple crime scenes – Jim has just said that you’re talking about someone who may have moved them. He may have a lair. This is all information that we do not have, that the police have not given us.
What kind of time frame are you talking about with such a complex scene like that? How long does it take before you say to yourself, “Okay, everybody pack your bags. We’ve gotten all the evidence we’re going to get”?
O’Connell As long as it takes. Sometimes it can take four hours. And, I mean, it depends on the size of your team. It depends on the amount of information you have. It depends on the size of the crime scene, the complexity, um, the different techniques you have to engage in to complete the tasks.So, it could be anywhere from – a case like this – I would say minimally twelve hours to three days. I mean, we worked a, uh, crime scene on a – on a plane crash that was ten full days 24/7 before we left. And that wasn’t even a complete wreck; that was just what we considered having all the body parts in place.
Hakes Well, I don’t – obviously none of us know. Uh, I certainly have tremendous respect for whatever the police departments out there had to work with, but we don’t know whether they had the kind of crime scene units that they needed.
Did they call in the FBI immediately? Did they get the state police immediately? Obviously, we don’t know any of those things because we haven’t been given that information. But I certainly hope that you’re right, and that it was as thorough a, um, forensic crime scene, um, examination as is possible.
So, Bobby. When you’re talking about investigating a crime like this – so, say you’re, you know, you’re one of the investigators. You’re on the scene with Maureen while she’s collecting evidence. What are you on scene doing as an investigator out there? Are you looking for this lair that Jim is talking about and why?
Chacon Well, you know, on every investigation is the traditional gum shoe, right? Looking for witnesses – it’s what we used to do – and knock. We used to go – but doing a neighborhood where you knock on every door around the place. But here you didn’t have that.
You wait and you look at every car in the parking lot. If there’s a trail head, you want to know who’s hiking there. You’re going to look at the bulletin board and see who goes there often. Who’s posting things on there? Because these are the people that often use that place.
So, you want to see who’s hiking there on a regular basis. Who’s running? Is there a group that maintains that trail? There are often these volunteer groups. So, you’re going to look at all of those groups and see who’s coming and going.Who could have possibly been on that trail? And not just at that time, you want to go the rest of the day, the day before. You want to see a face, or a guy hanging out two days in a row that they’ve never saw there before.So, you’re going to go back in time – as far back as you can – to see if the people who regularly use that area, you know, if you – you want to find somebody that saw something. And that’s how you do it.
Hakes Jim, what does the actual location itself tell you about, uh, you know, sort of the offender and where he might be from? What sort of geographic information can you glean knowing that it’s kind of a local area and that there may have been movement of the bodies and there may be a lair?
Clemente Well, I think there’s more details to it.
But I think that a number of these, you know, sort of intricacies and nuances tell me that he’s probably from around there. That he spends a significant amount of time there. Whether he grew up there or he landed there from somewhere else, I don’t know. But he’s certainly spent enough time to know that this was a place where little girls who fit his fantasy could come by, you know.
I think he’s the kind of guy who fantasized a great deal about doing this. That this is not something impulsive; this is something that he planned for. He played it out in his mind over and over again. It didn’t go exactly as he planned but he thought about this.He was compulsive. He played this fantasy in his mind repeatedly, and then, you know, took steps to carry it out. And that whatever that was, in terms of, you know, him preparing a place, uh, preparing a way to threaten and control his intended victim, um, preparing a place where he could, you know, sort of be unseen until the victim came into view – sort of laying his trap or throwing out his net.
I think he showed some level of criminal sophistication that only comes from having done, committed, precursor crimes. I think he would’ve exhibited peeping behavior. He might have broken into residences to basically be there for, you know, when somebody wasn’t home, and go thru you know underwear drawers and things like that.
Hakes Your voyeur kind of crimes.
Clemente Yes. Well, the peeping is that voyeur side but the other side is more like the excitement, the thrill of being in a place that you’re not supposed to be and looking at people’s intimate things. And he probably did those kinds of things and they are called nuisance crimes. And it might have been misdemeanors, but I believe he probably has a record like that. He almost certainly DID it. I don’t know if he got caught at it before.
But the guy has also some level of forensics investigation because he didn’t apparently leave a lot of forensic evidence behind of himself, at least that they’ve reported. So, that tells me that he wasn’t, you know, uneducated on forensics. So, he has some experience. And that may come from his experience as a criminal. That may come from having been arrested before on certain things, so now he knows how to avoid those things.
Hakes Could it also be because he maybe has not ever been arrested by law enforcement and is secure in the knowledge that his DNA exists nowhere but inside himself?
Clemente Well, I don’t know. I don’t know that – because he wouldn’t know about investigative genealogy – but that wouldn’t protect him anymore.But at that point, you know, I don’t think people who protect themselves by not leaving evidence are doing it because they don’t think they can be caught if they leave evidence. It’s that they think they can get caught if they do leave evidence.
O’Connell Or it could be as you said earlier, Jim. That he just couldn’t perform. Like even though it was a sexual act for him and he was gaining satisfaction, he wasn’t able to ejaculate.
Clemente It’s possible.
Hakes Well – and so what’s interesting to me from an investigative standpoint, for all our listeners who are sort of detectives at heart and who are wondering about all the evidence in the case – Jim, everything that you just said and everything that Bobby and Maureen have also said, you’re talking about a tremendous investigation.
When you look at people that’ve been – people that have been on the trail, people that are parking there, people who maintain it, people who were there last week at the same time, the last month at the same time – because investigators are going to want to know has this guy been effective in stalking this trail, and has anyone seen him parking, and walking, and acting suspicious, or not acting suspicious, or going off the trail and coming back on. I mean, you are talking about trying to find a massive number of people in a place where it’s not like New York City and there are street cameras.
O’Connell Francey, I think it’s likely in those 18,000 tips and leads that they’ve received, that some people have said to them “I’ve seen that guy before on the trail. Or it was four years ago or it was five years.”
It might have been 8 years ago.
I remember that, Francey, because the law enforcement officers are very, very sure that this guy has been either in the town, living in the town, part of his family lives in the town, he grew up here. He’s extremely familiar with this area.
Clemente Or he works there or he plays there.
And I think that what must have happened is that they have taken these leads – they have interviewed literally thousands of people and they have found someone who looks at that video that they released and says, “Yes, I definitely saw that guy minutes before these girls came by and I saw his face.” And that’s where this sketch came from.
And so, the other sketch was somebody saw in the area and was suspicious about, and it turns out it’s a guy who is sexually interested in children, who’s had multiple arrests for it.
O’Connell Who could have been stalking the same area –
Clemente Could’ve been stalking the SAME GIRLS at the SAME TIME and that’s what I call a target rich environment.
And just like the case in UVA – where there was a girl who’s a young college freshman and she was inebriated and walking around, obviously drunk on her own. There was a guy who claimed to be a Good Samaritan who started following her. But then the other guy stepped to her, put his arm around her, and walked her away. HE was the murderer. I think the other Good Samaritan guy could have also intended to sexually assault her, to take advantage of her in some way. I don’t know if he would have killed her, but I think that’s why he was doing it because he laid in wait. He stepped back into the shadows in a doorway and waited for her to walk by, and then he steps out and follows her but the other guy overtakes him. He was following her so slow that the other guy could overtake him and get up to her before he did. Why? What’s going on in his mind? Why is he doing that?
And so, to me that was very suspicious behavior. And I actually wrote an episode of Criminal Minds about it called Target Rich. Because I believe that when there are vulnerable victims around – and at the beginning and the end of the year and during holidays around college campuses where young girls are first sort of having the freedom to drink, and be on their own, and do what they want – these guys are drawn to that. Drawn to this target rich environment and they take advantage of these opportunities.
O’Connell As all predators are –
Clemente Yes, and I think in this particular case – that Abby and Libby just happened to walk by. Just happened to fall in this guy’s net and become his victims.
So, when people are victim hunting they’re looking for vulnerability, availability, and then desirability. And sometimes the desirability factor is just anybody who’s available and vulnerable.
And so, if we look at somebody like Israel Keyes, for example. Bobby worked the case. This guy would literally bury a kill kit all across the nation, memorize the GPS points where they were, and then he would go back home to Alaska. And then at some point, he would fly down to some city, rent a car with cash, drive up to a thousand miles to another a city, unbury the kill kit, and set a trap. And whoever came by – that’s the person he killed. And when that didn’t work? He got really pissed and killed somebody else.
But the fact is there are offenders who, literally, are just getting off on the kill itself and THAT is sexual for them. And so, it’s just not our traditional sexual assault kind of offense but it’s just as deadly.
Hakes There are new developments to report in 2019.
Two years and a couple of months after Abby and Libby’s lives were ended by some terrible, evil human being, the police have announcements to make. And about a week ago, they had what I consider to be, Jim, a remarkable press conference.And that was by a Doug Carter, who is the Superintendent of the Indiana State Police.
They gave a live press conference, and Maureen, you and I were talking about some of the things leading up to the press conference. And I want you to talk a little about what you know the police were doing, and then I want to ask Jim what that means.
O’Connell Yeah, I wanted to ask Jim what that means too. We talked about that also.
So, about, um, a week or ten days ago, they – they being the state police and all the entities involved in this investigation – they started putting out information on social media that said there’s big information coming down the pike on the Delphi murders. Expect a huge announcement coming down the pike on the Delphi murders. And they sort of ramped up; it was taking on a life of its own. I was seeing it all over – all over platforms of social media.
Hakes It was a bit of a frenzy.
O’Connell It was a bit of a frenzy. And I follow all the true crime podcasts and all you people out there that love true crime like we do – and I just thought this is very interesting. That they’re giving us so much time to prepare for this. Instead of saying tomorrow afternoon at noon there’s going to be a press conference –
Chacon And it culminated on Friday of last week when they did actually schedule the press conference for Monday morning. So, all weekend there was this, “Oh my God, what’s gonna happen Monday?”
Hakes Everyone assumed there had been an arrest made or they were going to announce the suspect or something really big.
O’Connell Yes! They were showing photos to people that they thought were the offenders – who matched these, um, the initial sketches from 2017. So, it was – it was quite a hub aloo.
Chacon And then, we talked about this before, and when you ask me a lot about releasing information to the public, I always keep in the back of my mind – because this is the way you usually do it – there’s a strategic and investigative strategic way of doing that.So, I wouldn’t be surprised if we ultimately find out – after they arrest the perpetrator, um, and they release some more of this information – that they did that not for publicity or any other reason. They did that because they had some strategic investigative reasons for it.
O’Connell 100%
Clemente Oh, absolutely! And I’ll tell you what it is because I know. I KNOW that that was scripted by the Behavioral Analysis Unit.
O’Connell Yes.
Clemente And I think it was very carefully scripted. EVERYTHING – the press in advance, the buildup to it. They want the killer to KNOW that they are coming for him. They WANT him to understand that they now have a laser focus on him because that is going to help others around him know that his behavior is changing.
O’Connell Yes!
Clemente Ever since they started making this announcement, his behavior started to change. Ever since he heard that press conference, his behavior started to change. And he will do things that will put a spotlight on him. He can’t hide!
HE CAN NO LONGER HIDE.
Hakes Let’s talk about some of the specific things that Superintendent did and said.As Maureen and I talked about earlier, they invited the public to this press conference. Invited the media to this press conference, had a lot of seats available for the public, and yet they didn’t take a single question. So, Jim, could that have been some type of setup to see if the killer arrived?
Clemente Absolutely.
O’Connell And that’s why I think they gave so much time – a headway – so this person, if he doesn’t live in town but he visits there, it gives him time to arrive.
Clemente You can hear Superintendent Carter say, “You may be in this audience! I’m speaking to you!”And he wants to give that opportunity to the offender to do what’s right because he knows that that offender is listening. Without any doubt, that offender is listening to this press conference if he’s not in the audience right there.
Hakes Well so, let’s talk about some profiling secrets, Jim.When Superintendent Carter said, “Now I’m talking directly to the killer. We believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than two years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy but we have.”Why do the profilers think it’s a good idea to say “we’re talking directly to you” and why are you talking about investigative strategy? That doesn’t sound that exciting. What’s the point of that?
Clemente S-T-R-E-S-S.
They are increasing the stress on the offender. When offenders get stressed out they act to their extremes. People will notice the change and that’s what they’re doing. They are absolutely trying to get this guy to realize it’s over; they’re coming for him. They will not give up until they catch him – they now have a very good description of him, they know where he was at a particular period of time – and they will. They’re whittling down the suspect pool, and they’re aiming right at him now. That’s really important.
Chacon Delphi is a town of like 3,000 people. It’s rural, um, and I think basically what the chief did was look right into the killer’s eyes as best he could and say, “You will find no safe haven here anymore. This is it. You’re done. You’re done here in Delphi.”
So, if somebody has a friend that happens to look like that sketch and they say, “You know what? I think I’m moving to Florida. It’s time. I’ve been thinking about this for a while.” Things like that, somebody is gonna –
Clemente Yeah. Or “Uhh, my grandmother’s sick. I gotta go to Texas.”
Chacon And that person is gonna go – “Oh, what? Now he’s leaving?”
So, that’s what Jim’s talking about, I think. I think that they will no longer have the safe haven in Delphi that they’ve had.
Hakes Well – and Bobby, you made a recent appearance on HLN. And one of the reporters on HLN was in the room during the press conference and was saying that she felt like a chill wind blew through when the Superintendent said, “Directly to the killer who may be in this room.”It’s like until that moment (except for the investigators), it occurred to no one that the killer would be sitting there watching the press conference and it just makes me wonder. Did everyone immediately start looking around and thinking, "This is the sketch? Am I sitting next to this guy? Is he standing in the back? Where is this guy?"
I thought that was a really interesting point that the reporter made about the atmosphere in the room.
Chacon And just think that – that’s – that reporter made a comment about that room. And, you’re right, I was live on the air with HLN at the time of the press conference and it goes beyond that press conference.So, yes people are looking to their left and right but they’re also doing that same thing in every diner, in every fast food restaurant, every convenience store in Delphi, every gas station in Delphi. And people are looking at the clerk that they usually go to –they’re looking. These people are going to be looking left and right, and if he’s still in Delphi they will find him.
Clemente Yeah, but even if he’s NOT still in Delphi. They’ll know that he’s not still in Delphi. They’ll know that he moved out at this point after the murders. They’ll know that he lives somewhere and could be trackable.
Chacon Right, right. Absolutely.
O’Connell And I think that the Behavioral Analysis Unit also trained, or talked to, or is looking at video footage of everyone in that room. If they didn’t videotape everyone that showed up in that room and watch the reaction when certain words were said – for example when the superintendent said “you are a coward” or you know, he actually said, “What will those closest to you think of when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls, two children? Only a COWARD” and he paused “would do such a thing.”
[Talking over each other]
Hakes Sorry, Bobby. I just wanted to ask Jim – because that sort of actually made me nervous.Because in my mind I’m thinking to myself, ‘Okay, this guy is a homicidal maniac.’ I know it’s not nice to use those words – but in my mind anyway – he’s a homicidal manic. Now, you’re potentially pissing him off and you’re obviously doing it on purpose.I get that you’re trying to stress him out, but are we worried we’re going to enrage a man who’s already killed two little girls?
Clemente I believe that they would’ve been foolish if they didn’t metal detect everybody that came into that room. I believe that – that what they’re trying to do is get him to show himself. To run and they will track him down.
He is not the kind of criminal that is gonna go out and shoot people or confront people. He’s going after little girls. He’s laying in wait in the woods for little girls. And when they called him a coward, it’s because they KNOW that is going to be something he recognizes in himself.
Chacon His stress, I think, will not be the – the stress reaction he exhibits will not be the one you’re talking about. I understand that’s the natural – “Oh my god, he’s gonna flip out.” But he’s – he’s right – this guy is a coward and his stress reaction to that is not going to be that. It will be something else.
Clemente It’ll be “I’m gonna run and hide!”
O’Connell Right. Because he always – who, what entices him? What gives him satisfaction? The most vulnerable of the vulnerable.
Clemente Being powerful. He has to threaten somebody who’s vulnerable. He doesn’t have the balls or the guts to go up against somebody who’s his size, to go up against somebody who’s stronger than him. He’s gonna run and hide. And if you’re listening, we KNOW it.
Chacon Jim, I had a question for you and it came up while I was watching the press conference. What is the strategic reason for the chief to get like – to say “I think you might have an ounce of conscience left”?
Clemente Because they’re appealing to him. They’re giving him the opportunity to come in, to not have this end in, you know, suicide by cop. They’re giving him the opportunity to say, “All right, I can prove myself as a human being. I can go back and repair some of the damage I did.” But –
Chacon A chance for redemption.
Clemente He’s giving him that chance.
Hakes And is that – is that the idea? That maybe this killer of children actually is capable of any kind of remorse?
Clemente Yeah, you can’t put everybody into a little pigeonhole, okay? Just because he did this one thing doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a family, he doesn’t have friends, he doesn’t have a job, he doesn’t have somebody that loves him or that he loves.
O’Connell Or gives money to charity –
Clemente Yeah, he could do ALL these things and still be the person that killed these little girls.And it’s probably very inconsistent with how people around him see him, and so it’s really important that people understand that the guy they’re looking for is NOT a monster predator. That is a label that makes you look right past this guy because you would never see him as that.
But the fact is that he IS the person that killed these two little girls and he’s been hiding this thing. And it has been eating at him, and eating at him, since it happened. AND he fantasized about doing it before it happened.His behavior definitely changed.
Chacon Israel Keyes told the interrogators (you can see this on his YouTube because it’s all been released on YouTube now), he tells them – he goes, “You’re gonna talk to a lot of people and you’re going to get a picture of a person that is not the person that I am going to tell you about. I did these things.” Completely admitted to being a serial killer. Completely admitted to doing all this heinous stuff. But also told them – and admitted that there was another part of him who’s the father of an 11-year-old daughter —
Clemente He didn’t want her to know! And that’s probably why he killed himself. Because he wanted to prevent her from knowing.He was such a coward that he didn’t want to have to face her. Knowing that he’s trying to teach her to be a good person and do all these things, and learn right from wrong, yet he’s been killing people around this country for years.
Hakes Let’s talk a little bit more, Maureen, about this power issue – and Jim, obviously, I want to ask you about that too – but Maureen, you and I talked earlier about the chief’s words and how carefully he spoke them.I mean, obviously, according to Jim (and I think he’s probably right) it was scripted, very closely scripted by profilers. But he said, “We have likely interviewed you or someone close to you. We know this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know. And one day, you will.”What is the point of that, do you think?
O’Connell Well, I think that’s, uh, up Jim’s alley far more than mine.
Clemente It’s the same exact thing.What the police superintendent is trying to do is make the offender aware that everything is closing in on him. That the people that know him are going to be his worst enemies now. That the people who have been sort of close to him and hiding him in plain sight are the people who are going to come forward and say, “You know, it’s funny. After the press conference, this happened and that happened.” Post-offense behavior that this kind of statement will help bring about.
And the fact is he’s NOT sophisticated enough to survive that. He’s NOT going to be in a position to be able to mask himself anymore, and he is going to be revealed.
Chacon Yeah, because as much as he was talking to the killer in that press conference, he was also talking to everyone else that lives in that town. He was telling them look left, look right, look at the people around you because it’s one of you and it’s somebody that you know. You don’t even realize it yet, but it’s somebody you know that killed these kids.
Clemente Yeah, and I’m sure that if you look at that sketch that was done, that he has changed his appearance subtly over time. That he changed, and changed, and changed. And if he hasn’t, he did RIGHT AFTER that press conference.
It could be hair color. It could be his beard, you know, manipulated his eyebrows at some – whatever. Tattoos, whatever. Something to draw attention away from the way he looks. Because the thing about sketches is that when offenders see themselves in a sketch, it scares the **** out of them.
Hakes I think the other interesting thing to me, to Maureen and Bobby – the more information that was released in the press conference. It wasn’t a ton of information. But, for example, when they previously released –
Clemente What do you mean it wasn’t a ton?!
Hakes Well, no, what I mean to say is [that] when they previously released the audio and video, it just had the presumed killer saying ‘down the hill’. And then yesterday, they expanded it and now it says ‘GUYS, down the hill,’ which you can clearly hear.Why do you think they released a little more of the audio, but on the other hand… it doesn’t seem all that significant?
O’Connell I actually think that the only reason they did this is because they formulated this brilliant plan to offend – stress out the offender. Get him to a point, lure him in potentially, and all these other things.And, of course, because of the new sketch. I don’t think it had much more to do with these other things.
Clemente Yeah, the only other thing he made a point of saying [was] it sounds like it is two different people but it is the same person. It is the killer, right? That’s what he said.
And so, it could have been masking his voice in part of it and his natural voice was the other part. So, I think that’s probably why they did it, and I think that’s also why they released the video instead of just the still. And I think when they released the video, people will notice more.
Like Maureen noticed how when he was walking, his gait – he seemed like he was overweight. But when you saw him walking, you could see that his legs were pretty skinny, that he was wearing oversized clothing, and that he had stuffed things in there to make him look bigger. Or maybe that was intentional or maybe that was just because he was hiding equipment.
O’Connell Like ropes and anything else.
Hakes Well, you’re also talking about – to me as a southern (the only southerner in the room), when you have someone saying “guys, down the hill” – that is not what a southerner would have said. It would have been “y’all, down the hill.” So, I think it’s a regional thing.I’d love to ask Jim Fitzgerald about this – about the dialect and the terminology.
O’Connell Well, I say “guys” all the time. It is a Midwestern thing. I’m from Chicago.
Clemente It’s also February. And I don’t know if it was very – it was a nice day there or whether it was freezing out? But if this person was hanging out in the woods for a long period of time, some of that bulk might have been LITERALLY to insulate him.
Chacon It was 60 degrees that day.
O’Connell Yeah, but it was bulgy. So, it was like pokey, bulgy. It didn’t look like I’m wearing three sweaters.
Chacon It was warm because Libby didn’t want to wear a sweatshirt. Her grandmother said put a sweatshirt on and she says do I have to –
Clemente Well, when you’re used to, you know, sub-sub-sub-zero temperatures and then you have a nice day – I remember living in Syracuse and it got to 50 and we were all in shorts and t-shirts. You know, it was like amazing.
Chacon I think that taken together, your question, they wanted to release a little bit more because all of this goes to this guy’s signature.
His gait on that bridge. They asked people to look very closely at how he’s walking. Now realizing that, that bridge and the treads on that bridge are far apart. It’s a very high bridge and there’s no guardrail on it, and yet he keeps his hands in his pockets. I would have had my hands out trying to balance myself as I’m going between these uneven, uh, slats on that bridge.So, they want people to look at this and say, “Oh, okay. I know that guy’s gait.” Because we know – you know people’s gait. If you see somebody, you see them all the time, and you turn off the lights and see their shadow, you can identify them.
The word ‘guys’ is some part of the vernacular people, so they release that. The reason I think it sounds different is because the statement ‘guys’ is to bring someone’s attention. If you’re looking at me and I want you to go down that hill, I just say go down the hill.So, I think what happened was Libby’s phone was facing away from him because they weren’t looking at him. He says ‘guys’ and they turn towards him. Now, the microphone on that little phone is facing him. So, the ‘guys’ and ‘down the hill’ sound differently because of the microphone. They turned to him and he said down the hill.
O’Connell That’s a good point.
Hakes And I also wonder if it was edited. Whether the police have released ‘guys’ from one part of that audio and ‘down the hill’ from another part. And because they wanted the public to hear both – just in case somebody recognizes one voice versus the other.
Chacon It could be. I tend to think he said ‘guys’ and they turned to look at him and the microphone was repositioned, and that’s why it sounds a little different.But I also think they made it a point of making him believe they have more video of him, more audio of him. Specifically, more audio of him and know what his voice sounds like. They didn’t release more of it.
And like you said in the last episode, you know, maybe she had that – he didn’t know she had that phone on. Maybe there is more audio. And I think now, the killer – by releasing even a little bit more – knows the police didn’t really. Because it’s all or nothing, right?So, now they are telling him we have more; we’re just not releasing it.
O’Connell And I think what Francey said is true – what you just said is true. There’s a really good reason why they aren’t releasing that audio because it might be horrific for everyone to listen to.
Hakes Well, in one sense, maybe that’s why they made a reference. As I talked about in the last episode – about preserving evidence for trial. Fortunately, in the sense that we want him captured, but unfortunately in the whole circumstance, is that a jury will eventually have to see and hear everything that was captured on Libby’s phone.
One of the questions I wanted to talk to you about – because we don’t have anyone here that is working this case – but obviously, we’ve all worked cases that are similar to this emotionally speaking. So, let’s get a little bit inside, uh, the minds of the investigators and go behind the lines, Jim.
This Superintendent Carter was very emotional. It was noteworthy. There were times in his delivery, in some of these statements, that he had to pause. He was VISIBLY emotional, and you know, it’s not something we see often from seasoned police officers. They try not to present that kind of face to the public. We, as professionals, try to be as emotionless as possible in our public presentation of these cases because we have to be able to take a step back in order to work them.
What do you think, Jim? As far as the impact it might’ve had on the offender to see that the police superintendent was emotional. Do you think it shows weakness, strength, or something else?
Clemente Well, I think it shows humanity. And I think the level of emotion he exhibited paired perfectly with his statement. That he is NOT going to stop until he gets this guy. And I think that was incredibly important. It’s a very specific message to this offender – that he can never rest.
Hakes And, Bobby. You’ve recovered children in terrible conditions. Uh, you know, you’ve seen the worst – especially in the Israel Keyes case – that people can do to children.When you hear the emotion coming from the superintendent what do you think about that – that was the public face that they put out?
Chacon Well, I think he had to do that. I think he was honest and genuine, number one. I don’t think there was any face put on that that was different. I think that was his honest raw emotions, and I think it was important, um, that the leader of this effort, that he demonstrate that.I’m sure the hardened detectives that are working this case also feel that way, but they probably don’t want to be in the public eye like that. I think, though, that it’s important for the leader of this investigation to show that all of the men and women working this investigation have the same emotional invested interest in it. They are all working night and day to bring this to a resolution, and I think it was very important for him as a leader to put that out, to not only the families, but the public as well.
Hakes Maureen, you’ve worked these kinds of crime scenes with terrible injuries to people. The things that these kinds of killers do, especially to children. How do you do that kind of job? Especially when it comes to children, when your emotions are so involved. How can your emotions not be involved after all?
O’Connell There’s no way that you can’t become emotionally attached to an investigation like this. I think it just fuels most of us to just work harder and to do absolutely everything. Like I’m sure these guys will tell you. You just wake up in the middle of the night and you’re like, “Did I try this? Should I try that?” And it’s hard to slow your mind down. It really is hard.
Hakes Jim, as a profiler, it was obviously part of your job to get inside the mind of an offender like this. Tell us a little bit about what the profiler’s who’ve been working on this case, and the FBI agents helping the local police on this case, are experiencing. Do they stay invested two years later? When do they tire of the kind of evidence in this case?
Clemente They don’t tire of it. It constantly weighs on their shoulders. Until a case is solved, they are always thinking about it. And they go home to their wives, and their children, and their families and they just pray that nothing like this ever happens to them. Because it taints you. It definitely makes you feel like there’s some real horrors out there -- some real bad people who do really bad things to each other, and it’s really unfortunate.
“LAFAYETTE, Ind. — Detectives investigating the Feb. 13, 2017, killings of Libby German and Abby Williams have taken notice of James Brian Chadwell II.”
[...]
“"The information has obviously been shared with us, and our investigators are looking into him," Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said.
He did not elaborate on any details about the investigation into Chadwell.
Indiana State Police Sgt. Jeremy Piers said they do not comment on whom detectives might be investigating, but noted that the state police works collaboratively with agencies in the district.”
[...]
“Chadwell is not the first person accused of an abduction crime who has been investigated as a person of interest in the Delphi murders. None of the other people of interest turned out to be a suspect.”
February 11, 2021:
CBS4 Indy:
"Jay Abbott, retired special agent in charge of the FBI's Indianapolis division, says Abby and Libby's killer left a signature behind, things only the killer would know, which will eventually help identify him. Abbott is convinced someone else knows who this killer is, and he hopes that person will have the courage to come forward."
“An Indiana man arrested earlier this month on attempted murder and related charges has landed on the radar of authorities who’re working on solving the infamous Delphi murder case.”
[...]
“The Journal & Courier reports that Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby confirmed that authorities are looking into Chadwell as a possible connection to the Delphi murders, but he has not been named a suspect or person of interest in the case.
“The information has obviously been shared with us, and our investigators are looking into him,” Leazenby said.”
[...]
“The story continues to develop. Check back for updates.”
“"We have a witness. You made mistakes," Carter said.
"We are coming for you and there's no place for a heartless coward like you to hide that gets his thrill from killing little girls."
Over the years, police have received tens of thousands of tips.”
[...]
“The Indiana State Police and Carroll County Sheriff's Department will not publicly clear anyone in this investigation until an arrest has been made.”
“When contacting the tip hotline, you're asked to provide as much information as you possibly can.
For example, the full name of the person of interest, their date of birth or approximate age, physical description, address, vehicle information, why they could be involved, and if they have a connection to Delphi.
Your information will be sent directly to the investigative team, who is still actively working on this case every day.
If a member of the law enforcement team needs more information about your tip, they will contact you.”
“Investigators who for years have been working to solve the killings of two girls in Delphi, Indiana, are looking into a kidnapping suspect in nearby Lafayette, Indiana, to see if there "might" be a connection, the sheriff said.
There are "several factors" leading police working the 2017 Delphi killings to look into this month's alleged kidnapping of a 10-year-old girl, Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told ABC News on Wednesday.”
Leazenby declined to go into detail and stressed that there's no specific link at this point. He said Delphi investigators are following up like they have on several other potential leads over the years.”
“The department has not immediately returned Oxygen.com’s request for comment.”
[...]
“As a result of his arrest, the internet has been abuzz with speculation that he resembles a sketch of the suspect from the Delphi Murders, the 2017 killings of Indiana eighth-graders Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13.”
[...]
“"The information has obviously been shared with us, and our investigators are looking into him," Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the Journal & Courier. His office has not immediately returned an information request from Oxygen.com.”
“I know the investigative team is working on it. I've talked to them, and they're actively pursuing this,” Libby's grandfather Mike Patty told Inside Edition.”
[...]
“”I'm certainly hopeful,” Patty said. “I'm waiting for that call from law enforcement, you know?””
[...]
““As bad as I want to get all worked up and be able to say, ‘Yeah, this is gonna be the one, we're just gonna have to wait,” Patty said.”
“Mike Patty says he is hopeful that a man recently charged with attempted murder of a 9-year-old girl is connected to the 2017 Delphi slayings. Investigators are reportedly looking into James Chadwell, whose social media posts may offer disturbing clues.”
“Abby’s mother, Anna Williams, said on the 4-year anniversary of their deaths, “We will get answers. We will have to wait patiently for that,” WRTV reported.”
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