IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[Lilibet]

He 'lost his balance' was one of many theories the family put forth.
Hello.... there was no ship movement.
Poor baby fell onto the wooden or concrete sidewalk outside the ship as it was in port.
So maybe he was drunk as a skunk ?

Since we don’t know if SA had been drinking or was “impaired” I think it’s fair to say that a wiggling toddler could throw someone off balance also. And that is why anyone familiar with the strength and determination of a toddler would not put her anywhere near an open window.
JMO

 

[Lilibet]

If mods reopened this thread, it wasn’t closed at family’s request.
So, arguing seemed to be the problem.
No responses to argumentative posts, no arguing. Post stays open. Takes 2 to argue. Hard to argue with yourself.

This is a new thread started by a member, not a reopened thread. But whatever the reason the original thread was shut down, your point about arguing is well taken. Thanks for beating the drum loudly.

 

[Medstudies]

Can someone run this through google translate please. I’m too lazy.

Ha! It’s just a rehash, but it Included breaking news video footage of the first local police responders.

It does mention the eyewitness/crew member saw grandpa put her in the window and saw her fall.

eta: (thanks to WSM for posting full translation !) note the comment “in an act of games she slipped from his hands and fell.)

Edit also to add the obvious point of contention:

two days later the narrative changed to: “he sat her on the ledge so she could pound on the glass like she does at hockey games But there was no glass and she fell.”

And it was RC’s fault that she died...

 

[IceIce9]

This is a new thread started by a member, not a reopened thread. But whatever the reason the original thread was shut down, your point about arguing is well taken. Thanks for beating the drum loudly.

I had actually started the original thread that was closed, or at least one of the original threads. There were I think two threads previously closed.

 

[al66pine]

US, Puerto Rico Law, Crime Definitions & Elements, Languages

(1) Referring to my post w quote: "In the United States, the law regarding murder varies by jurisdiction..."
a poster responded: "That's in the U.S. This case is in Puerto Rico."
Um, Puerto Rico is a territory of the U.S, at least according to this and other sources I've read.
"Puerto Rico... officially the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico (Spanish: Estado Libre Asociado de Puerto Rico, lit. "Free Associated State of Puerto Rico") ... is an unincorporated territory of the United States.." Puerto Rico - Wikipedia. Do some sources say otherwise?

(2) "...In the English language, murder is a synonym for homicide. By definition, it is death caused by another person..."
"Murder" is only one class of death in the homicide hierarchy, and in some jurisdictions is further divided into first class murder, second degree murder, and/or felony murder. IF using "murder" as a synonym for all types of deaths in the homicide hierarchy, imo that usage is just plain wrong in the context of crime law discussion. {{ETA. In court the two terms are not interchangeable. A prosecutor using the term "murder" or accusing the defendant, charged w NegHomicide, of being a "murderer" could result in a mistrial.}} (Casual conversation is another thing altogether. As Humpty Dumpty said, "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean.")

(3) "... Spanish is the official language of Puerto Rico ..."
Maybe I missed sources verifying Spanish as the "official language" for all branches of goverment but per below, it is dominant in many facets of Puerto Rican life.
"... English is the primary language of less than 10% of the population. Spanish is the dominant language of business, education and daily life on the island, spoken by nearly 95% of the population..." Puerto Rico - Wikipedia bbm

(4) "...and I'm assuming the trial will be in Spanish..."
Initially I was wondering about that too, then realized as a PR territorial crime (not a federal crime), no jurisdiction in U.S. District Court, so looks like Spanish imo.
"The official languages [218] of the executive branch of government of Puerto Rico[219] are Spanish and English, with Spanish being the primary language. Spanish is, and has been, the only official language of the entire Commonwealth judiciary system....However, all official business of the U.S. District Court for the District of Puerto Rico is conducted in English...." bbm Puerto Rico - Wikipedia

That's in the U.S. This case is in Puerto Rico and I'm not familiar with their laws or how their justice system works. In the English language, murder is a synonym for homicide. By definition, it is death caused by another person. I'd like to know what Puerto Rico's definition of the charge means and what is the penalty. Spanish is the official language of Puerto Rico and I'm assuming the trial will be in Spanish. JMO

 

[MsFacetious]

He is far from elderly. He is in his 50s. And this is MOO as I stated. I didn't say he was holding a drink at the same time he was with the baby.

I read the reports of the police in the Spanish online newspapers. Repeatedly. They stated 2 things from the beginning and never changed their statements. 1. He exposed the child to the void in an act of games. 2. He was rocking the child.

I understand sympathy for what this family has been through but the facts are whatever they are and I do hope they will come out if this is going to be in the news. Otherwise, let it not be in the news and let the authorities deal with the family quietly. Main thing is, the little girl was the victim, not the family. The step-grandfather has a history of being careless as others here are pointing out. No one is saying he intentionally set out to do harm. But MOO is he was a lot more careless than what is known.

Yes, this is in the article below.

this one should be added: IMO

Muere niña al caer de crucero en San Juan

Yes I just spent forever trying to find this.

Muere niña al caer de crucero en San Juan

The facts were reported at 4:27 pm, confirmed the Press Office of the Police Bureau.

“It is an American family where the grandfather shows the girl through a window… the girl falls to the precipice and dies… At the moment (the Division of) Homicides is in place; The family could not be interviewed. It is a very strong scene, very unfortunate and tragic ... at one point, one of his grandparents, it seems, in an act of games, exposes the girl to the void and falls from his hands, ”said the secretary in dismay of the Department of Public Security, Elmer Román.

Cruise ships have so many cameras that they will be able to show everything the grandfather ate and drank from the time he boarded the ship. The truth, whatever it may be, will come out.

That is reassuring. Also unnerving. I feel for anyone who has to watch the video.

The family stated they did not want to view the video.
There seems to be a lot of misinformation in this case.

Yes. The family was given the chance to watch the video and they refused. (Which is TOTALLY understandable.) It was at the justice department before they flew home. I'm trying to find the link but alas...

Is it really fair to imply that Puerto Rico LE would bow to hypothetical pressure from Royal Caribbean to file charges against the grandfather because of the lawsuit? That implies corruption on the part of both Royal Caribbean and LE...it doesn’t seem right IMO to jump to that conclusion, even though it can and occasionally does happen (in any part of the U.S.). But it’s the exception, rather than the rule.

I don't think it's fair. I think if that was the motive charges would have been filed sooner.

It looks like the decision to charge was made in August.

Radicarán cargos en caso de bebé que cayó de crucero en San Juan

Scroll and roll to some posts.

Yes. If a post annoys you, it's best not to respond.

"Ignore" works wonders, too

It is a life changing feature.

Stay away from argumentative posts. Must stay away from argumentative posts.

Absolutely.
Another note (not directed at you at all) is that discussing moderation is also not allowed. So let's not do that either. This thread is about Chloe. Let's keep it that way!

 

[LietKynes]

I had actually started the original thread that was closed, or at least one of the original threads. There were I think two threads previously closed.

Yes, there were at least two original threads.
A valiant effort and many useful and informative posts that were lost to the void.
Hopefully members can come back and repost ?

 

[LietKynes]

Yes, this is in the article below.



Yes I just spent forever trying to find this.

Muere niña al caer de crucero en San Juan

The facts were reported at 4:27 pm, confirmed the Press Office of the Police Bureau.

“It is an American family where the grandfather shows the girl through a window… the girl falls to the precipice and dies… At the moment (the Division of) Homicides is in place; The family could not be interviewed. It is a very strong scene, very unfortunate and tragic ... at one point, one of his grandparents, it seems, in an act of games, exposes the girl to the void and falls from his hands, ”said the secretary in dismay of the Department of Public Security, Elmer Román.



That is reassuring. Also unnerving. I feel for anyone who has to watch the video.



Yes. The family was given the chance to watch the video and they refused. (Which is TOTALLY understandable.) It was at the justice department before they flew home. I'm trying to find the link but alas...



I don't think it's fair. I think if that was the motive charges would have been filed sooner.

It looks like the decision to charge was made in August.

Radicarán cargos en caso de bebé que cayó de crucero en San Juan

LBM
Hmmm... must be something of significant evidentiary value on that security footage !
I'm betting RC will step up their security as a whole and possibly add even more cameras ?
For their own safety -- they should !

 

[MsFacetious]

LBM
Hmmm... must be something of significant evidentiary value on that security footage !
I'm betting RC will step up their security as a whole and possibly add even more cameras ?
For their own safety -- they should !

Yes, they should. Just like Uber drivers should all have dashcams. You never know what they will capture that will exonerate or implicate someone.

 

[nefes]

I have a 14 month old and I just can't imagine letting him play anywhere near open windows over a 150 foot drop. I literally just cannot imagine myself EVER doing that. But I also can't imagine a grandfather would willingly let his baby grand daughter fall to her death. None of this case makes any sense. I guess maybe the man was just not very smart and didn't really compute the dangers associated with letting her play near the window ... But at the same time, I'm just like, how could you not realize..? But I guess some people simply have more common sense than others.. it's really such a sad situation. And as for myself, having a baby around the same age, I just can't imagine how horrible this would be for everyone involved. Not sure I'd be able to live with myself if I ever let something like that happen

 

[Montrealaise]

Not awful, but can’t help but notice all his past tickets for failure to wear a seatbelt

note: the first link is time sensitive. The second is a blank search - enter name.

Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase

edit: clarifying links

Good work in unearthing the court records! So he was caught not wearing a seat belt, not just once but several times? Shows what kind of a careless, reckless person he is.

 

[Montrealaise]

BBM. That's just not true. To charge a grandfather in the death of his own grandchild after everyone who witnessed the incident saw that he was beside himself with horror and grief is a very serious thing to do. There is no way that he would be charged without solid evidence in a case like this.

The emotional implications are huge.

Let me add though that speeding tickets do not infer a murderous intent. That makes zero sense to me.

This was not intentional, IMO. To suggest that this man knowingly placed his baby granddaughter there and dropped her so his family could sue -not even him- doesn't make sense. It would be too easy for someone to see what he was doing, there's no benefit to him and speeding violations imply he's violent?

No.

But no justice department is going to charge a grieving grandpa who likely continues to suffer greatly, without solid proof that he grossly neglected his duty of care such that a baby died as a result.

I agree with those who feel perhaps the delay was to allow the family to grieve.

Their going to put a sobbing elderly man on the stand who is described as his grandaughter's best friend. Who never put her in harm's way prior to this. That's going to be some tough optics. He may not even decide to stick around for trial.

I don't think they would dare charge in a case like this without clear evidence that he committed a crime due to his actions of placing the baby where he did. I'm betting the video shows he was aware the window was open and kept her there regardless. And then he lost his grip.

Agree that the numerous tickets for speeding and not wearing a seatbelt in no way indicate a propensity for violent or murderous behaviour, but it does indicate a pattern of recklessness and willingness to disregard safety rules.

 

[squareandrabbet]

Cruise ship death: Charging grandfather of toddler who fell from window "pouring salt" on family's wounds, attorney says - CBS News
"They find it unnecessary and unfair, and it's really pouring salt on the open wounds of this grieving family," said Michael Winkleman, an attorney for the family.
As well as several other members posting how unsafe it is to let any toddler bang on glass. That's like letting your child run around on a busy highway.
You don't play 'chicken' with children. Imo.

I feel pretty sure that the hockey rinks are lined with Plexiglas and not glass though... no? I mean, all those players slamming against the wall... the velocity you can get from a puck, could be akin to shooting a bullet out of a gun...

I think Grandpa was both too drunk to note that the window wasn’t closed, and was probably doing that thing some people do where you ‘spot’ the kid, to give them the illusion that they are doing things ‘on their own’ - I.e., move your hands out about a quarter inch from their waist, poised to snatch them back the second they start wobbling. Only he was too late. I say this primarily because I can’t see my way clear to any scenario where someone would do that purposely to a child upon which they doted.

 

[borndem]

Just saw this -- please forgive if it has already been posted:

Family Stands by Grandfather Charged in Girl's Cruise Ship Death: 'Salt in Open Wounds,' Says Lawyer

1-year-old Chloe Wiegand died this summer while aboard a cruise ship

By Greg Hanlon and Helen Murphy
October 29, 2019 01:40 PM

The family of the 1-year-old who fell to her death last July on a cruise ship stands by the girl’s grandfather after he was charged Monday with negligent homicide, their attorney tells PEOPLE

Family Stands by Grandfather Charged in Girl's Cruise Ship Death: 'Salt in Open Wounds,' Says Lawyer

 

[TDoc72]

H2O Zone Pictures

anyone having any difficulty in discerning which of the windows are open in the second photo? Buehler?

This may be the best evidence I’ve seen of how easy it is to tell which windows are opened.

 

[10ofRods]

Agree that the numerous tickets for speeding and not wearing a seatbelt in no way indicate a propensity for violent or murderous behaviour, but it does indicate a pattern of recklessness and willingness to disregard safety rules.

Speeding is, in my view, on a spectrum with "violence" but not "murder," except insofar as recklessness n a car can be vehicular homicide in many states, a kind of murder.

 

[MsMarple]

So far the only reference I could find regarding the parents not wanting to watch the CCTV video was from The Sun:

Police in Puerto Rico have a copy of a video from the interior of the ship showing the fatal fall - and offered to show it to Chloe's parents but the couple were too distraught to view the distressing footage.

Instead they asked for a copy - but cops refused.

'CRITICAL EVIDENCE'
"One of the hold ups in our investigation is that Royal Caribbean have not provided us with CCTV footage of the incident which is the most critical piece of evidence," Winkleman explained.

"At this point they've outright refused to produce the video.

"We definitively know there is footage of the incident from the interior of the ship because the police in Puerto Rico wanted to show it to the family but not surprisingly the mom and dad were not willing or ready to watch it at that point.

"They asked for a copy of it but the police would not give it to them.
Cruise tot's family furious after firm 'refuses' to hand over CCTV of death fall

Anyone else have better luck? Now that criminal charges have been filed the grandfather's attorney will have access to the video with no problem. I wonder if the prosecution used it as evidence for the charge?

Looking for links was a sad task as so many articles had pictures of Chloe - such a beautiful, happy little gal. And it's clear to me that her grandfather adored her.

But... letting a toddler bang on glass/plexiglass during a hockey game? Ah, no. Not only is it annoying IMO it isn't safe. Over the years I've been on high floors in office buildings that had floor to ceiling windows and no way would I or my husband let our kids near them without one of us having a tight grip on them.

Would I be okay with disregarding the safety policies of the cruise ship and hoist my kid up on a railing to bang on the glass? Nope. The railing was in place to keep people a safe distance away. But then I always use my seatbelts too. And I sure wouldn't hire a nanny or babysitter who had a pile of tickets for not using theirs. MOO.

 

[borndem]

Scroll and roll past useless posts. Or this thread will get shut down again.

Absolutely, you are correct, @Midwestmom2019!

We don't need to be disrespectful against either side -- this is a tuff one, and we never know who is reading here. I think many of us here would like to keep up with this case on this thread.
Just sayin'...

 

[jjenny]

I feel pretty sure that the hockey rinks are lined with Plexiglas and not glass though... no? I mean, all those players slamming against the wall... the velocity you can get from a puck, could be akin to shooting a bullet out of a gun...

I think Grandpa was both too drunk to note that the window wasn’t closed, and was probably doing that thing some people do where you ‘spot’ the kid, to give them the illusion that they are doing things ‘on their own’ - I.e., move your hands out about a quarter inch from their waist, poised to snatch them back the second they start wobbling. Only he was too late. I say this primarily because I can’t see my way clear to any scenario where someone would do that purposely to a child upon which they doted.

Yes, hockey rink glass is either Plexiglas or tempered glass. Impact resistant. Having you kid bang on a glass window wouldn't be a good idea. So an argument that a kid likes to bang on hockey rink glass therefore it's fine for a kid to bang on window glass doesn't hold water in my opinion.

 

[jjenny]

I have a 14 month old and I just can't imagine letting him play anywhere near open windows over a 150 foot drop. I literally just cannot imagine myself EVER doing that. But I also can't imagine a grandfather would willingly let his baby grand daughter fall to her death. None of this case makes any sense. I guess maybe the man was just not very smart and didn't really compute the dangers associated with letting her play near the window ... But at the same time, I'm just like, how could you not realize..? But I guess some people simply have more common sense than others.. it's really such a sad situation. And as for myself, having a baby around the same age, I just can't imagine how horrible this would be for everyone involved. Not sure I'd be able to live with myself if I ever let something like that happen

Remember Michael Jackson dangling the kid over the balcony? One wrong move that kid could have been history too.