IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[time]

BBM. Amen!

The weather that day would be extremely cold even if you were dressed correctly. I would not have have children out for more than to go into a warm car and a short walk and that would be only if we had to go somewhere:

time,

Yes, that's one of the websites I used to find the temps and weather on that day.

I do believe LE that they confirmed seeing Jaime and the children at 7/7:30, but I respect your opinion. Not offended at all.

Here are the temps and windchill for that timeframe. With windchill, temp was 18/19.

6:53 AM Temp 32.0 °F With windchill 19.5 °F
7:53 AM Temp 30.0 °F With windchill 18.3 °F

Not trying to convince anyone. Just my current thoughts. :twocents:

My bolding on Cheeses post.

 

[shanhunter]

maybe there was a spirit/ghost in their apt. for real & she percieved it as demonic? i would still think she would have saught prayer/exorcism? IMO

I hope that I'm posting correctly as I haven't done this before.
I have been following this case from the outset and I don't believe Jaime murdered Brandon and Katelyn, but then the only information I have is the news reports. I don't understand how she could commit suicide or accidentally drown in 12 to 18 inches of water considering that the toxicology results were negative for drugs. Perhaps Jaime was being stalked by flesh and blood "demons" is what comes into my mind.

 

[michmi]

Welcome shanhunter!!!! Glad to have you here!

I know we had a long discussion about this a while ago regarding the concept of baptism and being naked, but the fact they were naked still really bothers me. Every picture we have ever seen shows what a modest woman she was, even to the point where she would wear a T-shirt under her blouse.

Maybe I would have to hold her beliefs to understand how such a modest lady could undress in that cold and know she would be found like that.

 

[time]

I hope that I'm posting correctly as I haven't done this before.
I have been following this case from the outset and I don't believe Jaime murdered Brandon and Katelyn, but then the only information I have is the news reports. I don't understand how she could commit suicide or accidentally drown in 12 to 18 inches of water considering that the toxicology results were negative for drugs. Perhaps Jaime was being stalked by flesh and blood "demons" is what comes into my mind.

Welcome!

Per my bolding - I'm thinking along this line also.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Welcome Shanhunter - you did great!

 

[Reader]

Welcome, shanhunter, glad to have you posting on the case!

 

[sophiebelle]

I still think this woman was having issues that were ignored. Her problematic behaviors didn't pop-up overnight. I now wonder if her husband was trying to let the church counsel her instead of getting medical help or calling her family to come help. It's a sad mess and very avoidable. I think of Andrea Yates and her mental issues being handled by her husband, yet he never once thought having one baby after another was a bad idea. Not that this was the same issue, but both were being handled by husbands who were clueless.

 

[althea33161]

That wasn't exactly what I meant....how can you diagnose mental illness definitively without the individual having been examined by a medical professional prior to death? This is all after the fact, even the consultations with the doctors.

I have read all the articles and seen the videos now, and it seems the LE's sole basis for mental illness is the witness who saw her that morning and statements from her parents/friends in WA, but these are not detailed and are described in vague statements of 'grandiose' and 'delusional'. How do we know she wasn't just quoting scripture to this witness and it was misinterpreted? If this witness was so concerned with her statements/behavior and how the family was dressed, I also want to know why this was not reported, at least to the husband if not authorities?

And I have to take into account the fact the same WA people denied she had any mental problems or problems after the birth in statements made to newspapers before. How or why did they change their minds? As far as I can see this is all based on hearsay and an attempt to protect the LE department.

For me, I'll hold off to see what the grand jury concludes after examining all the witnesses and LE investigation.

i had email communications with Sister Joyce, the senior pastor's wife @ World of Praise church in WA. where Bill Pink is pastor...she told me that no one believes that JC did this to herself/kids & that she was 'happy'....they are all praying that the GJ investigation will find out who did this...I sat in on Sherri Knights press conference & was privy to questions & answers not made public...i do not believe they interviewed people in WA. that said she was 'mentally ill'...u can not diagnose the mind post mortem...also, i have searched everywhere for some validation of the statement, ' cold weather intensifies mental illness'! IMO...the family vehementy denys this mental illness conclusion... Ms. Knight sald post press conference ( NOt MADE PUBLIC!) that the basis for the mental illness conclusion came from a psychologist & this witness who sa them that AM.

 

[time]

i had email communications with Sister Joyce, the senior pastor's wife @ World of Praise church in WA. where Bill Pink is pastor...she told me that no one believes that JC did this to herself/kids & that she was 'happy'....they are all praying that the GJ investigation will find out who did this...I sat in on Sherri Knights press conference & was privy to questions & answers not made public...i do not believe they interviewed people in WA. that said she was 'mentally ill'...u can not diagnose the mind post mortem...also, i have searched everywhere for some validation of the statement, ' cold weather intensifies mental illness'! IMO...the family vehementy denys this mental illness conclusion... Ms. Knight sald post press conference ( NOt MADE PUBLIC!) that the basis for the mental illness conclusion came from a psychologist & this witness who sa them that AM.

Interesting given LE's claims about what the parents, etc said and given that is not what the parents or anyone close to her said when interviewed. And, I wonder if any psychologist would stand by a statement that cold weather intensifies mental illness. That is a direct causal statement and would have to be supported by some research that I can't find either.

 

[Reader]

i had email communications with Sister Joyce, the senior pastor's wife @ World of Praise church in WA. where Bill Pink is pastor...she told me that no one believes that JC did this to herself/kids & that she was 'happy'....they are all praying that the GJ investigation will find out who did this...I sat in on Sherri Knights press conference & was privy to questions & answers not made public...i do not believe they interviewed people in WA. that said she was 'mentally ill'...u can not diagnose the mind post mortem...also, i have searched everywhere for some validation of the statement, ' cold weather intensifies mental illness'! IMO...the family vehementy denys this mental illness conclusion... Ms. Knight sald post press conference ( NOt MADE PUBLIC!) that the basis for the mental illness conclusion came from a psychologist & this witness who sa them that AM.

Thank you for going the extra mile and making that contact with the WA church, althea!

Why am I not surprised that what was said at the press conference about her parents and friends agreeing Jaime was mentally ill, is not exactly so.

As far as I'm concerned, no self-respecting, reputable psychologist is going to make a diagnosis of mental illness after the death of a person, especially based on just one person's observations of Jaime. I imagine the questions were put to her as, IF Jaime was mentally ill, how would she be affected by hypothermia, or close to that....

Here are some links I found about the relation of hypothermia to mental illness:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hypothermia/DS00333/DSECTION=risk-factors
Mental problems. People with a mental illness, dementia or another condition that interferes with judgment may not dress appropriately for the weather or understand the risk of cold weather. People with dementia may wander from home or get lost easily, making them more likely to be stranded outside in cold or wet weather.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/first-aid-hypothermia/FA00017
People with hypothermia typically experience gradual loss of mental acuity and physical ability, so they may be unaware that they need emergency medical treatment.

Older adults, infants, young children and people who are very lean are at particular risk. Other people at higher risk of hypothermia include those whose judgment may be impaired by mental illness or Alzheimer's disease ........

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/182197.php
Body temperature is controlled in the part of the brain called the hypothalamus, which is responsible for recognizing alterations in the body temperature and responding appropriately..........The heart and brain are most sensitive to cold, and the electrical activity in these organs slows in response to cold. .........The body starts to slow as the temperature drops. Aside from the cold that is felt and the shivering that may occur,
mental function is most affected initially. A particular danger of hypothermia is that it develops gradually, and since it affects thinking and reasoning, it may go unnoticed.

This tells me that the person has to be determined as mentally ill prior to being at higher risk for hypothermia.

However, hypothermia by the nature of what it is, does cause loss of acuity, brain function, ability to think clearly and reasoning. I wonder if Chief Knight realizes these are not the same as mental illness, but a result of the brain dying.

 

[time]

Thank you Reader...

1. Mentally Ill people may be more at risk at getting hypothermia due to poor decision making or whatever. That's the opposite of hypothermia making someone more mentally ill - the opposite causal direction.

2. People who have "hypothermia typically experience gradual loss of mental acuity"

3. Seems about the same as 1. and 2.

The way the Chief made it sound was that it made her more crazy, e.g., more prone to kill the children. Whereas I would see getting hypothermia as possibly causing things like mental confusion, not being able to make a decision, getting lost, etc. (seems to me that would interfere with such ideas and make it more difficult to carry it out)... plus, the article states it would interfere with physical ability (again, making it more difficult to carry out the whole murder/suicide scenario, not more likely).

I think Chief Knight was grossly irresponsible in his statements.

I think you make a great point that you can't diagnose a mental illness post mortem.

 

[Reader]

Thank you Reader...

1. Mentally Ill people may be more at risk at getting hypothermia due to poor decision making or whatever. That's the opposite of hypothermia making someone more mentally ill - the opposite causal direction.

2. People who have "hypothermia typically experience gradual loss of mental acuity"

3. Seems about the same as 1. and 2.

The way the Chief made it sound was that it made her more crazy, e.g., more prone to kill the children. Whereas I would see getting hypothermia as possibly causing things like mental confusion, not being able to make a decision, getting lost, etc. (seems to me that would interfere with such ideas and make it more difficult to carry it out)... plus, the article states it would interfere with physical ability (again, making it more difficult to carry out the whole murder/suicide scenario, not more likely).

I think Chief Knight was grossly irresponsible in his statements.

I think you make a great point that you can't diagnose a mental illness post mortem.

Thanks...it just goes against every medical ethic I can think of to take all this hearsay, not one fact, and condemn this poor woman to having mental illness and being guilty of the murders of her children.

BBM - exactly! How would Jaime have the strength and ability to fight with her son to make him drown (getting all those scratches), and hang that baby carrier with the Bible up in a tree, if she is having all these affects from hypothermia and at the point of death herself.

 

[Reader]

Date set for grand jury to hear Binford Park drowning case

http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news...ase/-/9718538/20433998/-/x6b4phz/-/index.html

NEW ALBANY, Ind. —The date has been set for a grand jury to hear the case concerning a family found dead in a Floyd County creek............


Selection for the grand jury is now scheduled to begin June 25 in Floyd County Superior Court.

 

[time]

YES! Thank you Reader, I have been waiting to hear and hoping this would go forward.

 

[The Cheese]

I check google and google news for this case every day, and that didn't come up in my search! Thanks for posting it, reader.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Thanks Reader. I am happy to see a grand jury convened. This whole murder suicide in 2 inches of H2O just doesn't wash with me.

 

[Reader]

I check google and google news for this case every day, and that didn't come up in my search! Thanks for posting it, reader.

Thanks for doing those checks on the case, The Cheese. Actually, I just found it accidentally and had kind of, due to frustration, put this case aside for a while. I'll be glad to finally get everything out in the open with all the facts. I hope the Mr. Henderson has the psychologist testify and the parents. I also found this article where the husband says he never heard Jaime saying those kinds of things (delusional, being haunted) and didn't think he had missed anything. It has a picture of the garden he planted for them. It still disturbs me that she is labeled 'psychotic' without medical evidence being given.


http://www.capitalbay.com/latest-ne...but-her-husband-insists-she-didn-t-do-it.html

 

[mysteriew]

I'm glad to see they are following through on this. I was afraid it would be one of those things that just kind of "faded away."

 

[txsvicki]

Can the coroner tell if hypothermia set in before the drownings? I'd think that the children would be affected worse and sooner than the mom and may be why there seems to be no fighting back.

 

[The Cheese]

Then, last month, New Albany Police announced that Jaime Clutter had drowned her children and that hypothermia had played a role. Police also pointed to medical experts who said an underlying cause was that Clutter had suffered severe postpartum mental illness.

Reconciling those versions of the deaths is a key reason why Floyd County Prosecutor Keith Henderson intends to choose a grand jury June 25 to review the case, he said Thursday.

His office has begun sending subpoenas to investigators, witnesses, Floyd County Coroner Leslie Knable and medical examiners who performed the autopsies. The grand jury will hear testimony to help reach some conclusions in the case, Henderson said.

“My objective for this is that all angles be thoroughly reviewed,” he said, adding that the community needs to be “satisfied that everything is aired out.”

snipped

Michael Clutter, Jaime’s husband and the children’s father, was ruled out as a suspect because police verified he was at work when his wife and children died.

snipped

Henderson said it’s unclear now whether the grand jury would uncover new information, but it’s likely that if no indictments are returned, Henderson said, his office would produce a report of the findings.

Michael Clutter said he received a subpoena to appear June 28. He said he welcomes a review of the case but he’s also been dismayed that recent publicity has cast his family in a negative light.

“There’s already been enough negative publicity,” Clutter said. “To me, it’s fine as long as it’s going to get something done that’s positive.”

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20130613/NEWS02/306130050/