In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

[JWG]

Hi Bev,

Like you, I am trying to pinpoint the day, and I don't quite understand how you get five days either (even after reading your explanation).

Here is how I come up with my numbers:

Accumulated degree day (ADD) is simply the sum of the mean temperature of one or more consecutive days.
Example: given the following mean temperatures (in Celsius) for each of three consecutive days -28, 30, 32 - then ADD = 22 + 30 + 27 = 79.

Now, the forensic report suggests the chemistry supports 90 ADD. The authors assume a mean temperature for that time of year in Orlando as 35 C.

90 / 35 = 2.571 which rounds to 2.6 days, the estimate given in the report.

In my post #187, I show three temperature data sets from Orlando for the dates June 15 to June 27. The first represents the average across a number of reporting stations in the greater Orlando area. The other two are from the two stations closest to AL. For each data set I calculate the mean temperature from June 16 through June 20, which are the most likely days the body was in the trunk. As it turns out, the temperatures in the Orlando area were pretty stable over the entire June 15 to June 27 period, so any window I use yields a pretty consistent average.

Example data set 1: 25.1 (June 16) + 27.4 (June 17) + 27 (June 18) + 26.4 (June 19) + 26.9 (June 20) = 26.56 average.

Now I take the three averages and divide them into 90 and round to get days:

Data set 1: 90 ADD / 26.56 C = 3.4 days
Data set 2: 90 ADD / 24.18 C = 3.7 days
Data set 3: 90 ADD / 27.20 C = 3.3 days

However, we don't know the actual temperature in the trunk. At best it would be equal to the air temperature outside, but given that Casey always parked outside on pavement, the heat absorption properties of the asphalt would tend to heat the car to a temperature greater than the pavement. Because there was frequent rain and cloud cover, I would expect that effect to be minimized. So I am guessing the internal temperature of the trunk was about 30 C, or 3 to 6 C warmer on average than the outside air temperature (more during the day, less at night).

90 ADD / 30 C = 3 days

 

[kiki the parrot]

JWG: My current take: On the 16th the baby dies in early to mid afternoon. and was in the trunk or is placed in the trunk by Casey. On the 17th Casey hides the body at her parents. On the 18th she tries to figure out if she should bury the child at her parents but instead puts the body back in the trunk and on the 19th drives her to the Lake Underhill area and discards her. On the 20th Casey returns to her parents to clean the trunk. This allows for slightly more than 3 days of decomposition.

Yosande: from everything i'm reading and hearing, Caylee was in the trunk decomposing for 2.6 days, when she was placed in an airtight container. Then as the days continued to go by the smell got worse and worse. KC tried various chemicals like cans of deoderant, gasoline, and perhaps chloroform. She complained to Amy that her dad ran over something and her car smelled bad. Finally, the smell got too bad to ignore or cover up anymore and she finally dumped the body. According to LP, she then texted Amy and told her she "got rid of the smell." On the 18th, when she borrowed a shovel, (how stupid is that) she placed Caylee's body next to her playhouse, and went in search of place to bury her, moving the container next to the house and digging there. She discovered it was simply too much work, or not a good idea, and decided to put her in a container instead, and back into the trunk, where she ignored her until the smell had to be dealt with. This is amazing to me that she would periodically go to the trunk and spray it with deoderant, or pour gasoline on the carpet.
The gp were out of town on the 18th til I'm not sure when they got back, and George found the shed broke into, and called the cops. KC had done it and used the gas to cover the smell, not fill her gas tank.
So far this is my theory. GA kept all the cars in a very clean condition, so it doesn't surprise me that the car and trunk were clean, even really clean.

I can not envision KC moving her daughter's remains back and forth in and out of the trunk. This is a grisly, gruesome enough task even one time. She was deodorizing after the fact, but I theorize Caylee's remains were in the backyard (where she also likely expired) enclosed in some kind of plastic bag until placed in the trunk on approx 18th. The gas I believe was simply needed because she'd been driving around so much in search of disposal site. Either in process of first placing remains in trunk, or in removing (evidently earlier than I thought), the bag broke and fluids escaped. JMO

 

[Angel Who Cares]

:floorlaugh: Sorry a little off topic but caught this article from Local 6! But had to share to lighten things up a little now & then! :blowkiss:

SUICIDAL SQUIRREL SLOWS EARLY VOTING!

http://www.local6.com/politics/17852763/detail.html

Maybe a relative of the one that KC had that died in her car!! :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

 

[TakeNote]

:floorlaugh: Sorry a little off topic but caught this article from Local 6! But had to share to lighten things up a little now & then! :blowkiss:

SUICIDAL SQUIRREL SLOWS EARLY VOTING!

http://www.local6.com/politics/17852763/detail.html

Maybe a relative of the one that KC had that died in her

car!! :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

That is just to funny....thanks for the laugh!:biglaugh:

 

[itsreenw]

Hi All,
I haven't posted on WS for a while...

Re: the theory that KC buried Caylee in the backyard, has anybody suggested an idea of what KC used to dig the hole to bury Caylee in the first place if she had to borrow a shovel to dig her up? Have the A's reported a shovel missing? Sounds like they spent a lot of time working in the yard, seems they would have a shovel of their own.

LE also said the car was in good condition other than some scratches on the trunk of the car. Has anyone read if there is a pattern to the scratches that might help determine if they were possibly from the bottom of a container or something that may have held Caylee's body?

If these questions have already been adressed, forgive me. There is just SO much to read!!

 

[WillenFan21]

I am confused about something that I am hoping someone could clear up for me.

There are THREE key dates in this case which are:

June 16th, 2008 - The day that they think Caylee died.

June 19th, 2008 - The day that they think Caylee's body was taken from the back yard of the Anthony home and placed in to the trunk of her mothers car .

AND

June 24th, 2008 - The day that Casey would not let Geroge any where near her car.

-June 16th to June 24th is a total of 8 days.

My question is this:

If Caylee died on June 16th or June 15th and wasn't placed into her mothers trunk until June 19th, you then have another 3-4 days after that Caylee layed in the turnk for b/c I don't think KC got rid of the body until around June 25th or June 26th. I definetly think Caylee was in the trunk on June 24th and that is why KC wouldn't let GA anywhere near the car so from June 19th until disposal date(which could be up until June 27th) that would be 8 days right there that she'd be in the trunk for. My question and confusion is where does the 2.6 days of decomp that was found in the trunk come in? You figure that from June 16th to June 27th that is 11 days that she'd be decomposing for. Where does the 2.6 days come in?

 

[magic-cat]

It is possible that Caylee was dead a bit more than 2.6 days when she was moved from the trunk. It is possible she was dead 3 days, and when she was moved into the trunk there could have been a rip in whatever she was inside of, such as a bag, and thus the leakage that occurred in the trunk.

Another possibility is that she was inside the trunk all that time up until she took her out and put her inside of a sealed container. This was perhaps what she did at her parents house when she backed into the garage.

Another possibility is that she was either under the playhouse or inside the sandbox for that time, and was then moved to the trunk at which time the leakage may have occurred and then Casey placed her inside of something else more sturdy than what she had her in that leaked.

Another possibility is that she died in the yard and was moved about the yard and Casey realizing that she would be found if she left her there placed her in the trunk, and disposed of her in the allotted time frame of 2 to 3 days in a dumpster or in a similarly simple fashion.

The 2.6 days is not an exact estimate. It is an approximation, and one that perhaps could be off either less or more by 1/2 of a day or so depending on the exact temperatures and the conditions under which the body was kept.

 

[LaLaw2000]

IMO, the 2.6 days is an approximate time and could have possibly been 3 days.

 

[PaulaF513]

It still seems confusing to me also. 2.6 or 3 days dead does not seem long enough to produce an odor that permeated the car to the extent that this one apparently has. I also think a more plausible answer to the cadaver dog "hits" in the backyard are CA rinsing off the smelly items that were in the car before washing them. I wonder if anyone has asked her about that.

 

[TruthSeeker]

It still seems confusing to me also. 2.6 or 3 days dead does not seem long enough to produce an odor that permeated the car to the extent that this one apparently has. I also think a more plausible answer to the cadaver dog "hits" in the backyard are CA rinsing off the smelly items that were in the car before washing them. I wonder if anyone has asked her about that.

Excellent point Paula! Especially in light of the inconsistency of the cadaver dogs (one hitting, the other did not).

 

[SuziQ]

Excellent point Paula! Especially in light of the inconsistency of the cadaver dogs (one hitting, the other did not).

IIRC, both dogs hit consistently in the same places.

 

[hornswoggled]

I am one who is also confused with the 2.6 day theory. If we are confused by that number, then a juror will also be confused. The prosecution will have to call in an expert scientist who can also speak in terms that a layman will understand. This is going to be a sticking point (among many) in the trial, and the defense team will jump all over it. Anyway, I'm glad someone else brought this up, because it has been bugging me too.

 

[WillenFan21]

Could it be possible that the LE is wrong on when Caylee died? My theory is this on how the 2.6 days of decomp could work:

June 16th -June 17th

- During this time Caylee is being drugged but has not died yet. Casey is keeping in the trunk of HER car by this time

June 18th

-Casey drugs Caylee again but this time something goes wrong causing Caylee to die. Casey then places her in the play house until she can figure out what to do with her body.

June 19th

-Casey returns to the Anthony home on b/c she decides she wants to do something with the body. First she thinks she's going to burry her by the bamboo but decides not to and then lays her by the pool. That could be why the dogs hit on those two areas as well. Casey places the body in the trunk of her car. During that time Caylees body leaks fluid which is why there was the stain. Also this would explain the neighbor seeing Casey's car in the garage.

June 21

Caylees body stays in the trunk until June 21 and some time during that time Casey puts the body in a plastic box.

-June 24th

Casey doesn't let George get near the car b/c of Caylee being in the trunk.

June 25th

Casey's car starts smelling.

June 26 or June 27th

Casey can't take the smell any longer so she gets rid of Caylees body for good.

Also do you think it could be possible that maybe those pings in the airport area and stuff that maybe if Caylee was being drugged thats where Casey was putting her while she was out so that Casey could party? It could be that not only was Casey keeping her in the trunk of her car but also in those areas. I just don't know. Casey could be fooling everyone right now.

-Mar-

 

[EgyptNug]

I am confused about something that I am hoping someone could clear up for me.

There are THREE key dates in this case which are:

June 16th, 2008 - The day that they think Caylee died.

June 19th, 2008 - The day that they think Caylee's body was taken from the back yard of the Anthony home and placed in to the trunk of her mothers car .

AND

June 24th, 2008 - The day that Casey would not let Geroge any where near her car.

-June 16th to June 24th is a total of 8 days.

My question is this:

If Caylee died on June 16th or June 15th and wasn't placed into her mothers trunk until June 19th, you then have another 3-4 days after that Caylee layed in the turnk for b/c I don't think KC got rid of the body until around June 25th or June 26th. I definetly think Caylee was in the trunk on June 24th and that is why KC wouldn't let GA anywhere near the car so from June 19th until disposal date(which could be up until June 27th) that would be 8 days right there that she'd be in the trunk for. My question and confusion is where does the 2.6 days of decomp that was found in the trunk come in? You figure that from June 16th to June 27th that is 11 days that she'd be decomposing for. Where does the 2.6 days come in?

I think she died the 16th. That day or the next, KC put her in some sort of bag (hence the anaerobic decomp). The bag leaked at 2-3 days, so KC transferred her to some sort of plastic tub, another plastic bag (then maybe put Caylee, in the two trashbags, into the third white plastic bag from AL"s apartment?) Or maybe she put AL's white trashbag UNDER the double-bagged body just in case. Did they find the maggots IN the bag or on the outside of the bag?

(Speaking of the bag, maybe she was going to put Caylee's body in there to frame AL or his roomate? Because why else take a bag with trash in it?)

Either way, I don't think any fluids leaked after this point. But I think air was able to escape, and continued to infuse the death smell into all materials in the car, hence the fact that it still smells so strongly in there. IIRC, they tested the carpet and got the 2.6 days, not the air samples? I don't think they can tell how long the air samples are from?

 

[dtown]

Actually, I don't think the report is saying that the death was suffocation, the report is saying that the level of gases measured is consistent with the decomposition of a body that is in a fairly airtight container - in other words air did not promote as rapid decomposition as a body would that was just placed into the trunk without being contained in something.

The find at Greenwood Wetlands included a black garbage can (medium sized) with a lid partially on it sitting straight up in the water. Bones were found near the shore.

 

[Coley]

Could it be possible that the LE is wrong on when Caylee died? My theory is this on how the 2.6 days of decomp could work:

June 16th -June 17th

- During this time Caylee is being drugged but has not died yet. Casey is keeping in the trunk of HER car by this time

June 18th

-Casey drugs Caylee again but this time something goes wrong causing Caylee to die. Casey then places her in the play house until she can figure out what to do with her body.

June 19th

-Casey returns to the Anthony home on b/c she decides she wants to do something with the body. First she thinks she's going to burry her by the bamboo but decides not to and then lays her by the pool. That could be why the dogs hit on those two areas as well. Casey places the body in the trunk of her car. During that time Caylees body leaks fluid which is why there was the stain. Also this would explain the neighbor seeing Casey's car in the garage.

June 21

Caylees body stays in the trunk until June 21 and some time during that time Casey puts the body in a plastic box.

-June 24th

Casey doesn't let George get near the car b/c of Caylee being in the trunk.

June 25th

Casey's car starts smelling.

June 26 or June 27th

Casey can't take the smell any longer so she gets rid of Caylees body for good.

Also do you think it could be possible that maybe those pings in the airport area and stuff that maybe if Caylee was being drugged thats where Casey was putting her while she was out so that Casey could party? It could be that not only was Casey keeping her in the trunk of her car but also in those areas. I just don't know. Casey could be fooling everyone right now.

-Mar-

Well if LE did the test then we could ponder if they are wrong but they didn't. This is a whole other entity that did the test. We might not all get it on this but maybe we aren't supposed to get it. We will find out one day what this all means.

MOO

 

[hornswoggled]

JWG: My current take: On the 16th the baby dies in early to mid afternoon. and was in the trunk or is placed in the trunk by Casey. On the 17th Casey hides the body at her parents. On the 18th she tries to figure out if she should bury the child at her parents but instead puts the body back in the trunk and on the 19th drives her to the Lake Underhill area and discards her. On the 20th Casey returns to her parents to clean the trunk. This allows for slightly more than 3 days of decomposition.

Another thought. Maybe she didn't hide the body in the backyard, but merely removed the trunk liner to the backyard, hosed down the stained area, hence the cadaver dogs hitting in the back yard. She would probably have, at that point, "repackaged" the body into something more sturdy, placed her back in the trunk and proceed to get rid of the body someplace else.

I wouldn't think she would risk putting the body in the back yard for fear of getting caught. Were G & C out of town at the time or just working? That would make a big difference in whether she decided to place the body in the back yard.

Just throwing another idea into the mix. Surely, somewhere in all our posts, there will evolve a scenario that parallels what she actually did with the body..

 

[Coley]

Here is something that might help. Remember Caylee was little so it took no time for this to happen:

Decomposition begins as soon as you die. The process is called autolysis and it begins as the dead body begins to cool off. In general, a corpse lying out in the open and exposed to high temperatures and humidity can become completely skeletonized in as few as 10 days to a month, at the most. Areas of the body which have sustained injury or trauma decompose much more rapidly than those which are not injured.

 

[Coley]

JWG: My current take: On the 16th the baby dies in early to mid afternoon. and was in the trunk or is placed in the trunk by Casey. On the 17th Casey hides the body at her parents. On the 18th she tries to figure out if she should bury the child at her parents but instead puts the body back in the trunk and on the 19th drives her to the Lake Underhill area and discards her. On the 20th Casey returns to her parents to clean the trunk. This allows for slightly more than 3 days of decomposition.

Another thought. Maybe she didn't hide the body in the backyard, but merely removed the trunk liner to the backyard, hosed down the stained area, hence the cadaver dogs hitting in the back yard. She would probably have, at that point, "repackaged" the body into something more sturdy, placed her back in the trunk and proceed to get rid of the body someplace else.

I wouldn't think she would risk putting the body in the back yard for fear of getting caught. Were G & C out of town at the time or just working? That would make a big difference in whether she decided to place the body in the back yard.

Just throwing another idea into the mix. Surely, somewhere in all our posts, there will evolve a scenario that parallels what she actually did with the body..

Why don't you think she put her back there? So explain the "impression where she possibly was buried at 1st" by the pool that measures about the same size as Caylee or a bin she could fit her it?

ETA: The quote didn't work right so this is to hornswoggled.

 

[hornswoggled]

I never had the impression that she was buried by the pool. I have doubts that KC placed or hid the body in the back yard at all because of the fear of getting caught. If G & C were not out of town that week, but working instead, the risk was higher of them accidentally finding Caylee's body, especially with the two little dogs running around the back yard.

I'm thinking that it's possible KC pulled the trunk liner out and hosed it off in the back yard, thereby creating a "hit spot" for cadaver dogs. I don't think it would be very easy for KC to dig a hole deep enough with all the bamboo runners and shoots. My previous post had the quote messed up. Sorry for the confusion.