In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

[AZlawyer]

Okay now I understand - but after a couple of days "open" I think the bug activity would have been much higher in the trunk after all, don't you? I have to reread, but I remember experts saying coffin flies, etc can get into what appear to be sealed places very easily.

I don't know - I mean from the description, actually moving a ...no...let me just say a body in that condition ...into plastic bags after two days....pretty difficult for even a very strong stomach I think. And why leave her there for another three days?? That's what makes no sense to me. She was still driving that car around on the 24th when George asked for his car thingys...the chance of getting caught - it's not like it was a diamond ring or something - the smell would have been mighty powerful after five days...from the outside of the car....

I think the bug activity should have been higher no matter what, which is why I assume Casey cleaned it up as much as she could. Maybe she thought she could get rid of the smell by cleaning.

Apparently Vass said the decomp from the carpet could have been anywhere from .7 to 2.6 days. So maybe the bagging happened closer to 1 day into the process. We know Casey went back to the house on the afternoon of June 17. (And on the 18th for the shovel.) Perhaps Caylee was just lying in the trunk in the parking lot of Tony's apartment on the night of June 16 , and the bags were not involved until the next afternoon.

I'm leaning toward the very quick trip to the house area on the afternoon of June 20 as "dumping day." That night, Casey acted in what was, according to her friends, an uncharacteristically drunken manner at Fusian--Hot Body contest, running up Tony's tab, babbling about how she could be a professional singer or whatever.

Personally, I think Casey's drama about keeping George away from the trunk on the 24th was more about not being caught with the gas cans than anything else. Remember, she had just denied having them. IMO she was racing him to the trunk so she could grab the tire wedge he was pretending to want and close the trunk before he saw the gas cans. But he was too speedy and she was forced to admit taking his "f*ing cans."

 

[logicalgirl]

Yes, it was the carpet scrapings, and yes, Caylee's body could have been in the trunk longer.

Here is a link to the part in Vass's report where the "2.6 days" is mentioned. (Thanks Harmony2):
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Sidebar for Caylee Anthony's forum #14



Notice Dr. Vass specifies:

"... a post-mortem interval of less than 2.6 days (range of 0.7 - 2.6 days)."​

... and that this was assuming an average temperature of 35 degree C. (95 degrees F.).

Vass's report explains that when the scraped substance was vaporized for testing, butyric acid was present in the resulting gases, but not other fatty acids which would have been present if the substance came from a body that had been deceased longer.

The 0.7 to 2.6-day range means the decomp fluids (the fluids, not necessarily the body!) that caused the trunk stain made contact with the carpeted surface of the trunk within ~16 hours of her death (0.7), or as long as 2.6 days after death.

This IMO fits with the scenarios of Caylee having died inside the trunk, or having been placed into the trunk very soon after she died. In fact, the bug evidence would seem to indicate that this was the case, since there were scant signs of any 'early colonizers' that usually arrive almost immediately after death.

As AZ notes, Caylee's body could have remained or been removed/replaced in the trunk later/longer than the leaked fluid indicated, if she were wrapped or re-wrapped after the leakage occurred.

Poor Caylee.

Interesting - what were you guessing this "leaked fluid" not from the body was?
The decompostion stage begins immediately internally and does not move to the putrefication stage until after two days. But if you suggest the body was there for 1.6 to 2.6 days are you not speaking of the decomp fluid from the body/the beginning of the bloating putrefication stage?

So here's my logical brain thinking about what lazy FCA would do. I believe she killed Caylee in the house, went out the the garage, got the garbage bags, went back into the house to put her in the first one, tied it and put her iin the second one. Let's remember that Caylee weighed 38 pounds. I think she picked her up in the garbage bage to carry to her car and discovered the garbage bag was too difficult to carry that way and maybe it began to tear, so she went back to the garage to get the two cloth bags. Put her in those and tossed her in the trunk. Left her there for a few days until it was the odor was strong - then tossed her in the swamp down the road.

 

[Harmony 2]

bumping for discussion

 

[logicalgirl]

My post moved from the Sidebar per Harmony2's - gulp - 2nd "request"!

Re Caylee being in the trunk of the car for two or three days unbagged....I dunno.
Back on the last Sidebar thread, several of us posted links to how/times a body decomposes and bug activity.

I'll try to say this as carefully as I can. Those statistics are for adults of average weight. Caylee was a tiny little girl - 38 lbs., so I think we can assume decomp would be equal to or less than the average adult - yes?

So if putrification starts after 48 hours - think a great deal of high odor leakage and puffing. Seriously - you think FCA then picked Caylee up and put her into garbage bags? In humans decomposition starts internally and works its way out because of intestinal bacteria.....thinking about that....I don't see any movement outside of garbage bags after 2 days....

So I think she taped her, bagged her and tossed her into the trunk.

We also have to think about the locogistics of how and when she put her in the trunk...so we know she parked her car in the street or in the driveway if her parents weren't home. But to put a dead child in the trunk of the car, she'd have had to pull into the garage if Caylee was unwrapped. Or...what would be that scenario?

We know from computer activity and cell phone pings that she was most likely at home during the day on the 16th. So we can assume she killed Caylee after George left for work?

 

[Tink]

Interesting - what were you guessing this "leaked fluid" not from the body was?
The decompostion stage begins immediately internally and does not move to the putrefication stage until after two days. But if you suggest the body was there for 1.6 to 2.6 days are you not speaking of the decomp fluid from the body/the beginning of the bloating putrefication stage?

So here's my logical brain thinking about what lazy FCA would do. I believe she killed Caylee in the house, went out the the garage, got the garbage bags, went back into the house to put her in the first one, tied it and put her iin the second one. Let's remember that Caylee weighed 38 pounds. I think she picked her up in the garbage bage to carry to her car and discovered the garbage bag was too difficult to carry that way and maybe it began to tear, so she went back to the garage to get the two cloth bags. Put her in those and tossed her in the trunk. Left her there for a few days until it was the odor was strong - then tossed her in the swamp down the road.

That makes sense to me. Horrifying, disgusting sense, but it seems to fit.

Tink

 

[heidisams]

Interesting - what were you guessing this "leaked fluid" not from the body was?
The decompostion stage begins immediately internally and does not move to the putrefication stage until after two days. But if you suggest the body was there for 1.6 to 2.6 days are you not speaking of the decomp fluid from the body/the beginning of the bloating putrefication stage?

So here's my logical brain thinking about what lazy FCA would do. I believe she killed Caylee in the house, went out the the garage, got the garbage bags, went back into the house to put her in the first one, tied it and put her iin the second one. Let's remember that Caylee weighed 38 pounds. I think she picked her up in the garbage bage to carry to her car and discovered the garbage bag was too difficult to carry that way and maybe it began to tear, so she went back to the garage to get the two cloth bags. Put her in those nd tossed her in the trunk. Left her there for a few days until it was the odor was strong - then tossed her in the swamp down the road.

Glad you are revisiting this... I have always thought the canvas bag came in later too... And because of the decomp process, which must've shocked the "live life 10 minutes at a time kc", she had no choice but to dump the canvas bag with Caylee in the swamp... even though the bag could possibly be id'd as coming from the A house... As far as the clean up, I think kc's attempts were half hazard, probably using the couple of paper towels found with the trash in the trunk. It was probably too much for Miss laziness, and she took the easy way out and dumped the car. What I have to wonder is, how much did ca clean up then? Was the panic and horror in her voice on the 911 call because she knew what may have happened, due to what she cleaned up hours earlier? Is that why she went into denial soon after that 911 call? Self preservation? This photo has had me wondering if kc borrowed the shovel to help move Caylee, and/or to get her in the canvas bag... At that point decomp would've been pretty horrific... The holes in the bag seem consistent with the end of the shovel handle... Perhaps the holes happened when she was trying to get Caylee, wrapped in the plastic bags, moved into the canvas bags... Perhaps this is when the leaking occurred. Could the shovel have been cleaned? I've always thought the shovel was used help move Caylee somehow. Maybe she tried to bury her, realized it was too tough, and had to get her body into the canvas bag, and in the trunk... The holes look too perfect, to me, to be from insects or animals... However, they also could be from the stick Kronk claimed he used..???

All jmo.

 

[bayouland]

My post moved from the Sidebar per Harmony2's - gulp - 2nd "request"!

LG. I see what you are saying and also have doubted that Casey could have stomached bagging Caylee's remains up after decomposition started - but rethinking it, I feel she did it....because she had to.

At times, her expressions at trial (the rare times she wasn't faking) it appeared to me that she was remembering something very sickening. I think bagging up her daughters remains was it. JMO of course but she really had no choice.

Another reason I feel this way is because I don't think there would be an outlined imprint of Caylee in a fetal position if she went into the trunk initially in bags.

JMO.

 

[joypath]

:twocents: Most criminals are NOT brilliant, this particular one gives us the added bonus factor of being lazy and assumes she IS brilliant because she's managed to manipulate the WORLD in which she reigns supreme or else she just splits for another "world" to reign!:twocents:

:waitasec: The human body is NOT a hermetically sealed environment, fluids would be leaking from the orbital cavities & when the body was moved/tilted, there would be a purge of fluids from the aural canals. (Fancy talk for the stuff one usually swallows would "back-up" via the Eustachian tubes). As the heart has stopped the blood circulation, the normal bacteria, fungi & virus population go WILD and they create fluid & gaseous by-products that want to get into the atmosphere by any means possible....ANY opening & the animal vectors (yeah, that includes insects) assist their quest.

:rocker: IMVHO, the shovel was NEVER in touch with Caylee's body. Removing evidence of DNA from the surfaces of porous materials is virtually impossible & we are NOT dealing with a Rhodes scholar here! Remember again that there is a HUGE difference in the make up of decomposition fluids of over a 31 day period and a decomposing human body.

:blushing: I've forgotten so much (thank God, in some ways!) but IIRC, there seemed to be some space constraints in how the child was contained within the trunk. I'm betting that Caylee was jammed into the space available, covered/wrapped with a blanked or such, while in rigor placed into the plastic bags to be discarded "soon" but something disrupted the plans. Then came the putrification event, the further bagging, IMO, the damaged bags & more leaking while she tossed her child into the swamp. IMHO, Divine intervention & Caylee permitted allowed science to speak for the key parts of the story............Caylee's skull..........but a jury wouldn't/couldn't listen.lease:lease:lease:

 

[eve80]

I think the bug activity should have been higher no matter what, which is why I assume Casey cleaned it up as much as she could. Maybe she thought she could get rid of the smell by cleaning.

Apparently Vass said the decomp from the carpet could have been anywhere from .7 to 2.6 days. So maybe the bagging happened closer to 1 day into the process. We know Casey went back to the house on the afternoon of June 17. (And on the 18th for the shovel.) Perhaps Caylee was just lying in the trunk in the parking lot of Tony's apartment on the night of June 16 , and the bags were not involved until the next afternoon.

I'm leaning toward the very quick trip to the house area on the afternoon of June 20 as "dumping day." That night, Casey acted in what was, according to her friends, an uncharacteristically drunken manner at Fusian--Hot Body contest, running up Tony's tab, babbling about how she could be a professional singer or whatever.

Personally, I think Casey's drama about keeping George away from the trunk on the 24th was more about not being caught with the gas cans than anything else. Remember, she had just denied having them. IMO she was racing him to the trunk so she could grab the tire wedge he was pretending to want and close the trunk before he saw the gas cans. But he was too speedy and she was forced to admit taking his "f*ing cans."

I completely agree with this theory. I think the bags were used some time later. I think that if the bags were used immediately (at least the plastic ones), it would be hard for the "body-shaped" stain to get imprinted into the carpet. I'm thinking that if the canvas bag was on the outside, then maybe the blanket only was used initially to wrap the body.

It is also possible that KC tried to outrun GA to the car because of the smell only, maybe she was afraid that as an ex-cop he would recognize the smell. Moo

 

[logicalgirl]

:twocents: Most criminals are NOT brilliant, this particular one gives us the added bonus factor of being lazy and assumes she IS brilliant because she's managed to manipulate the WORLD in which she reigns supreme or else she just splits for another "world" to reign!:twocents:

:waitasec: The human body is NOT a hermetically sealed environment, fluids would be leaking from the orbital cavities & when the body was moved/tilted, there would be a purge of fluids from the aural canals. (Fancy talk for the stuff one usually swallows would "back-up" via the Eustachian tubes). As the heart has stopped the blood circulation, the normal bacteria, fungi & virus population go WILD and they create fluid & gaseous by-products that want to get into the atmosphere by any means possible....ANY opening & the animal vectors (yeah, that includes insects) assist their quest.

:rocker: IMVHO, the shovel was NEVER in touch with Caylee's body. Removing evidence of DNA from the surfaces of porous materials is virtually impossible & we are NOT dealing with a Rhodes scholar here! Remember again that there is a HUGE difference in the make up of decomposition fluids of over a 31 day period and a decomposing human body.

:blushing: I've forgotten so much (thank God, in some ways!) but IIRC, there seemed to be some space constraints in how the child was contained within the trunk. I'm betting that Caylee was jammed into the space available, covered/wrapped with a blanked or such, while in rigor placed into the plastic bags to be discarded "soon" but something disrupted the plans. Then came the putrification event, the further bagging, IMO, the damaged bags & more leaking while she tossed her child into the swamp. IMHO, Divine intervention & Caylee permitted allowed science to speak for the key parts of the story............Caylee's skull..........but a jury wouldn't/couldn't listen.lease:lease:lease:

Okay - so duct taped and stuffed into the trunk of her car, wrapped in a blanket - that makes sense to me. Because I've been trying to figure out how she got a dead child into her car. Still a bit dicey to carry a child outside in a blanket and put her into the trunk of a car. But anyone who happened to be watching wouldn't think anything of someone slinging a garbage bag into a trunk..and we know she backed into the garage several days later - that may be when she picked up the cloth bag.

Re CA cleaning the trunk - While we know FCA probably wiped up some "mess" with paper towels - the CSI testified at trial that the car trunk had not been cleaned or vacuumed before it was seized as was as dirty as you would expect the average car of that age to be. Febreeze sprayed around aside - which can hardly be called anything besides temporary deodorizer .

 

[eve80]

Okay - so duct taped and stuffed into the trunk of her car, wrapped in a blanket - that makes sense to me. Because I've been trying to figure out how she got a dead child into her car. Still a bit dicey to carry a child outside in a blanket and put her into the trunk of a car. But anyone who happened to be watching wouldn't think anything of someone slinging a garbage bag into a trunk..and we know she backed into the garage several days later - that may be when she picked up the cloth bag.

Re CA cleaning the trunk - While we know FCA probably wiped up some "mess" with paper towels - the CSI testified at trial that the car trunk had not been cleaned or vacuumed before it was seized as was as dirty as you would expect the average car of that age to be. Febreeze sprayed around aside - which can hardly be called anything besides temporary deodorizer .

She may have backed into the garage on the 16th, too. We don't know that. The neighbor wasn't back from vacation (if my recollection is correct) until the 17th - or at least evening of the 16th, so it's possible that she didn't carry little Caylee all the way to the curb but instead backed into the empty garage - parents were at work.

It's interesting what you mention about the cleaning of the car. I didn't know that. I thought she did clean it, at least vacuumed, that's why there were not many bugs there, and only one hair was found. But maybe it was the blanket that contained the hair and the bugs.

That makes me think of another point - if Caylee's body was wrapped (even double-wrapped) in plastic, I don't think we would see the hair with the death band, since while I can see some liquids leaking out, I don't see a hair slipping out of two bags. That would also support the blanket only theory. What do you think?

 

[com n sense]

She may have backed into the garage on the 16th, too. We don't know that. The neighbor wasn't back from vacation (if my recollection is correct) until the 17th - or at least evening of the 16th, so it's possible that she didn't carry little Caylee all the way to the curb but instead backed into the empty garage - parents were at work.

It's interesting what you mention about the cleaning of the car. I didn't know that. I thought she did clean it, at least vacuumed, that's why there were not many bugs there, and only one hair was found. But maybe it was the blanket that contained the hair and the bugs.

That makes me think of another point - if Caylee's body was wrapped (even double-wrapped) in plastic, I don't think we would see the hair with the death band, since while I can see some liquids leaking out, I don't see a hair slipping out of two bags. That would also support the blanket only theory. What do you think?

I think it's possible that Caylees hair could be in the trunk if she was already bagged. The hair could have come off & stuck to the outside of the bag as KC was bagging her & then fell off in the trunk OR the hair could have been on KC's clothing & came off as she was putting her in the trunk.
I think there would have been more hairs found if Caylee had laid in the trunk without being bagged somehow.
I also think once KC made up her mind she wanted Caylee gone she bagged her immediately not caring if her heart had stopped beating yet. She didn't want to look at her again after that duct tape was applied. All JMO

Exactly how long is one deceased before that band shows on the hair?

 

[eve80]

I think it's possible that Caylees hair could be in the trunk if she was already bagged. The hair could have come off & stuck to the outside of the bag as KC was bagging her & then fell off in the trunk OR the hair could have been on KC's clothing & came off as she was putting her in the trunk.
I think there would have been more hairs found if Caylee had laid in the trunk without being bagged somehow.
I also think once KC made up her mind she wanted Caylee gone she bagged her immediately not caring if her heart had stopped beating yet. She didn't want to look at her again after that duct tape was applied. All JMO

Exactly how long is one deceased before that band shows on the hair?

I just did a quick research, so please don't blame me if you find more info that contradicts this. It looks like the death banding only occurs if the hair was attached to the decomposing body. Some suggest a period of at least 8 hours into decomposition. If the hair falls off immediately after death, the banding will not develop. If this is true, then the hair must have fallen off the scalp at least 8 hours after death.

 

[logicalgirl]

Digging around looking for transcripts, came across these forensic reports that contain information about the trunk, what was found in the trunk, the testing that was done and the results of that testing.Including hair(s), carpet, etc.

Interesting re-reading!

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2810988/Casey-Anthony-Documents-Released-Nov-26-005

 

[eve80]

Digging around looking for transcripts, came across these forensic reports that contain information about the trunk, what was found in the trunk, the testing that was done and the results of that testing.Including hair(s), carpet, etc.

Interesting re-reading!

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2810988/Casey-Anthony-Documents-Released-Nov-26-005

Yes, great find! It just AGAIN goes to show that the jury didn't listen and/or care. How can you read this and not think "bad things" happened in that trunk... :banghead:

 

[Spice]

I guess I'll have to settle on a maximum of five days and I'll never believe she was moving a decomposing body in and out of the trunk.

Unfortunately, I do. She doesn't plan ahead and lives in the moment. She had no plan. I know it is horrific, but honestly, she was so sloppy with what she did from beginning to end.

I have always believed that she duct taped her mouth and nose and threw her in the pool to silence her from screaming and alerting neighbors and to make sure that what she did was "fool-proof". She removed her from the pool and placed her on the ground and various places in the yard while panicking and finally preparing to just throw her in the trunk. Everything she did after Caylee died seemed like an afterthought and pointed to no plan.

The only "Plan" she had was Tony, Tony, Tony, Tony. That is it. Just look how she spent the evening of the 16th.

She didn't know at that point what her next step was. I think she came back on the 18th and borrowed the shovel to get rid of Caylee's body, but something stopped her for some reason. That is when she may have wrapped her in more stuff...bags, blankets etc. But since she abandoned her plan that required the shovel, she kept driving around with her for a couple of more days until the stench became not only unbearable to her but possibly noticeable to others.

No plan, no choice. That is why she ended up having to dispose of a badly decomposed Caylee. It would be so like her to ignore it to the last minute possible (kind of like her pregnancy) and then deal with it only when she absolutely had too.

She threw her away practically in her own backyard. That proves more than anything else that she was lazy and had no plan. Very Casey.


This is just my opinion, I know that it isn't fact but I do not put driving around with her decomposing daughter in the trunk past her. A person that could go to Blockbuster and hold hands with her new boyfriend while her hours dead toddler is in her trunk is capable of more horror than I would like to even imagine.

I also understand the reluctance to believe that she could stomach the disposal of a decomposing Caylee, but that is because you are normal, and something like that seems not only impossible to you but repugnant. But look who we are talking about here.....:devil:

 

[DeadCat]

Nobody has brought up the cooler lately. Wasn't there a cooler in the garage which was recently replaced after all happened? I wonder if backing up the car into the garage made it easier to get from trunk to cooler... I mean, why back up...once you're in, you're in.

 

[com n sense]

I just did a quick research, so please don't blame me if you find more info that contradicts this. It looks like the death banding only occurs if the hair was attached to the decomposing body. Some suggest a period of at least 8 hours into decomposition. If the hair falls off immediately after death, the banding will not develop. If this is true, then the hair must have fallen off the scalp at least 8 hours after death.

Thank you Eve - this could go with being hidden in the yard somewhere for a day.
I never leaned that way before, but I know a few others believe that could have happened.
I can't see her bagging her after laying in a hot trunk for more then a day. Since a trunk is hotter then the outside temp the body would have too soft & messy. IMO if she wasn't bagged immediately, she was bagged within 8 hours.

 

[logicalgirl]

Thank you Eve - this could go with being hidden in the yard somewhere for a day.
I never leaned that way before, but I know a few others believe that could have happened.
I can't see her bagging her after laying in a hot trunk for more then a day. Since a trunk is hotter then the outside temp the body would have too soft & messy. IMO if she wasn't bagged immediately, she was bagged within 8 hours.

Yes agree, but didn't she spend the next 24 hours in bed with Tony? That's one of the primary reasons I think she taped her, bagged her and later added the canvas one and blanket so she was actually able to carry her, just before she threw her into the swamp.

 

[Justiceseeker35]

So I place Caylee's tod about 5:30 pm on the 16th
it was rainy and stormy that afternoon and probably would have cooled off to about 75-80 degrees. I can theorize KC knew of a place near Tony's that would be secluded enough with the bad weather to duct tape her in the car with the car seat to restrain her. Wait till she passes out. Place her in the trunk and bind her hands. Then, let's say it stayed in the mid 70s all night. It would not be very hot. But in the morning the am sun and heat starts speeding up decomp enough to start the leaking. 8 hours would have passed to begin hair banding. KC remembers around 1 pm she has something to do so she starts her cleaning up plans. She heads to the house and double bags her. Then the 18th rolls around and she backs her car in again and borrows the shovel because she has to do something with the body. The garbage bags are hard to hold on to so she finds the canvas bag with handles and thinks about burying her. Begins the process of digging then changes her mind, maybe it's all too much to bury..
We also don't know how much of the trunk KC decided to clean.