Interim discussion regarding questions from the jury and Arias on the stand #82

[Allyne Smithe]

She also said a couple of times that he fantasized about anally raping a child -- this is how she characterized his comment "you sound like a 12 year old girl having her first orgasm."

And she said that he would make her wear the Spidey undies while having anal sex (don't know how that's possible).

I do not think that anyone is buying the whole pedophile thing.

According to the faked letters shopped to the NE, he would rip them off. And no, I don't believe anyone is buying it.

If anything, it may be hardening some attitudes against her. I would not want to be in her, uh, undies. :blushing:

 

[G&AMom]

Originally Posted by Arishia
→This is something I copied from another person's post to WS.
These are all FROM Travis TO JA
April 2008 (I think - if not, its close)
(illegible) you have that
information. its 15 minutes it
would take to gt the info.
But you won't take 15
minutes. Why because it is
an Fing lie. So either text
me you that you are ready
to tell the truth or give me
your imaginary friend with
the worst BS story you have
ever told or leave me alone.
Its a lie like no other. It is
freaking foolish. There is no
way out of it, you have
screwed up your story so
bad you can't mend it. You
are caught. When will you
realize that. I do not know.
You have til tomorrow. to
have me this persons
information before I tell all
of the hughes' leslie udy,
the freemans, your parents
and anyone else that
matters about all the crazy
things you have done. So
either fess up or feel the
wrath. No matter how bad
the truth is I promise you
the punishment will be
better than the lie. This is
worse than your magical
email that a mysterious man
you've never seen before
wrote for you. You insult me
by thinking ill believe such
crap. nothing else from you
til the truth. I already know
your lying so why continue.
After tomorrow, its gonna
get real bad for you. Time to
spit it out.
-----------------------------
These 3 are all part of one long text,
no replies from JA in between:
05/26/08 at 07:59:15am
I sent you a response to
your dire conversation, that
I hope youread because
you need to read it. Maybe
it will spark human emotion
in you, something that only
seems to exist when it
comes to your own
problems. But everyone
else is just a part of your
sick agenda. By the way,
your pic comment to Danny
Jones makes you look like a
pure *advertiser censored*, even more to
the people who know you.
You should be embarrassed
by it. If he knew what I knew
about you he'd spit in ur
face. Sow ould everyone
else. I have never never in
my life been hurt so bad by
someone. But why do I
even say it because you
don't care. It doesn't serve
your evilness.
05/26/08 at 08:35:02am
You couldn't get off your
lazy butt to to read it could
you. That's the sociopath (I)
know so well. it freakin
figures
05/26/08 at 09:11:11am
I don't want your apology I
want you to understand
what I think of you. I want
you to understand how evil I
think you are. You are the
worst thing that ever
happened to me.
I transcribed the first part of this text:
Thanks for this Lizard Queen!
Do not call me. And do not text me anything. The next thing I want is this michelle K that is friends with Elena(?) that nobody knows but knows details about my life. Not one other thing ever. Until you have that information. Its 15 minutes it would take to get the info. But you won't take 15 minutes....

Sorry for posting this long dealy but I wanted to say thank you to LQ and everyone who put this all together last night. These texts make perfect sense to me now. JA confronted TA with ill-gotten information regarding another woman he was seeing, his outrage was brought on by her psycho-hacking-snooping, and her "cover-up" by way of inventing "Elena" as the informant. His demands for the truth are in reference to how she REALLY got the information. One less thing to obsess over today while I catch up on work. :great:

It was Paperwing that typed the long portion up originally (she deserves the shout out).

Yes, I agree. After reading about the identity theft by the brother, it gives a whole new slant on how Travis viewed Jodi's snooping. I hope the police release the mugshot. Isn't that a public document? I know they've told Travis' brother they won't release it, but I wonder why not.

 

[Trishyco73]

First official post for me! I've been a lurker here since the trial started and I've really enjoyed a lot of the posts. This may have come up already and I know that there are a lot of posts regarding JA and her intelligence. But does anyone else find the journals totally childlike and ridiculous? They remind me in the ones I did as a 8 year old. The weird upbeat tone, over the top glee about mundane things and signing it with her name at the end??? It's almost like she knew someone besides herself would be reading these someday (narcissist) and wanted to portray her life in a certain way. They strike me as really false and immature. And don't get me started on the entry about "falling asleep" at TA's house after cleaning. She wasn't even honest in her journal about waiting him to come home from his date with Mimi! As far as I'm concerned if you lie in your journal about your jealousies and motivations you have a serious personality disorder. :twocents:

 

[KMouse]

BBM. I had exactly the same thought. I think people lie at the ER all the time, and we're talking one seriously accomplished liar here. In fact, had she gone, it would have bolstered her battered woman defense since we know women feeled pressured to lie under the circumstances.

Totally O/T, but I have a friend who is into sculpture. He was taking a load of old cast iron radiators to the local university art department to melt down. As he was heaving one off the truck, he caught his sweater on it and threw himself down on the radiator. Left quite a nasty cut. Can't imagine what the ER thought when they heard that story!

At least if she had gone and been seen by a doctor somewhere there would have been a record of it. The story is beyond riduculous and any reasonable person wouldn't believe it.

 

[AZWatcher]

'mornin' guyz :seeya:

Finally got around to listening to last Sunday's True Crime radio show, with Tricia, katiecoolady, Dr. Glass and Holly Hughes. As always, it was enjoyable and informative and thought-provoking, but an idea suddenly popped into my head as I was listening to the podcast:

Does anyone else get the impression that Nurmi wants his client to be found guilty? My understanding is that he tried to get himself removed from this case, and couldn't. So maybe he figured, well, it's my job but I don't have to do it well. And, in my humble opinion as a non-lawyer, he is doing a terrible job. But...on purpose? (Then again, look what he has to work with...a sociopath who thinks she's smarter than he is!)

BUT... if JA is found guilty (and how can she not be?) and gets the DP, can Arias use Nurmi's "ineffective counsel" and that perhaps he was prejudiced against her from the get-go, as a weapon in the appeals process?

Thoughts?

Sure. Especially if you consider how frustrating it must be for him when she goes all freakin' rogue on the stand even when he is attempting to reel her in.

 

[Schuby]

'mornin' guyz :seeya:

Finally got around to listening to last Sunday's True Crime radio show, with Tricia, katiecoolady, Dr. Glass and Holly Hughes. As always, it was enjoyable and informative and thought-provoking, but an idea suddenly popped into my head as I was listening to the podcast:

Does anyone else get the impression that Nurmi wants his client to be found guilty? My understanding is that he tried to get himself removed from this case, and couldn't. So maybe he figured, well, it's my job but I don't have to do it well. And, in my humble opinion as a non-lawyer, he is doing a terrible job. But...on purpose? (Then again, look what he has to work with...a sociopath who thinks she's smarter than he is!)

BUT... if JA is found guilty (and how can she not be?) and gets the DP, can Arias use Nurmi's "ineffective counsel" and that perhaps he was prejudiced against her from the get-go, as a weapon in the appeals process?

Thoughts?

I don't know that he wants her to be found guilty so much as he considers it an inevitability, and, as such, sees his job primarily as an effort to keep her off death row. That is why he's lingered so much on abuse and their relationship, he's setting up his mitigating factors for the sentencing phase. Also, I don't think he likes her AT ALL. I mean, the guy has a client smuggling messages out of jail about how better to deceive him. He can't much appreciate that.

 

[AZWatcher]

First official post for me! I've been a lurker here since the trial started and I've really enjoyed a lot of the posts. This may have come up already and I know that there are a lot of posts regarding JA and her intelligence. But does anyone else find the journals totally childlike and ridiculous? They remind me in the ones I did as a 8 year old. The weird upbeat tone, over the top glee about mundane things and signing it with her name at the end??? It's almost like she knew someone besides herself would be reading these someday (narcissist) and wanted to portray her life in a certain way. They strike me as really false and immature. And don't get me started on the entry about "falling asleep" at TA's house after cleaning. She wasn't even honest in her journal about waiting him to come home from his date with Mimi! As far as I'm concerned if you lie in your journal about your jealousies and motivations you have a serious personality disorder. :twocents:

Absolutely! Oh and WELCOME ABOARD!

 

[Southern_Meadow]

Wait for the THs on HLN to run with this one.

They already have, last night on JVM. Though not much was said, even the defense attorney didn't think it was a big deal. I'm sure her DT is already aware of this and have been for some time and have checked it out only to find out the truth. If this were legit, they would have had it in evidence in a New York minute.

 

[G&AMom]

At least if she had gone and been seen by a doctor somewhere there would have been a record of it. The story is beyond riduculous and any reasonable person wouldn't believe it.

Actually, I'm agreeing with you. She would have been all set if she'd gone to a doctor and there really wasn't anything preventing her. My main reason for not believing the finger injury story (aside from the fact that she's a liar) is that the injury had to result from some kind of cutting, and she says all he did was kick her and broke her finger. I can't see how that would affect the tendon.

 

[raisincharlie]

'mornin' guyz :seeya:

Finally got around to listening to last Sunday's True Crime radio show, with Tricia, katiecoolady, Dr. Glass and Holly Hughes. As always, it was enjoyable and informative and thought-provoking, but an idea suddenly popped into my head as I was listening to the podcast:

Does anyone else get the impression that Nurmi wants his client to be found guilty? My understanding is that he tried to get himself removed from this case, and couldn't. So maybe he figured, well, it's my job but I don't have to do it well. And, in my humble opinion as a non-lawyer, he is doing a terrible job. But...on purpose? (Then again, look what he has to work with...a sociopath who thinks she's smarter than he is!)

BUT... if JA is found guilty (and how can she not be?) and gets the DP, can Arias use Nurmi's "ineffective counsel" and that perhaps he was prejudiced against her from the get-go, as a weapon in the appeals process?

Thoughts?

I feel fairly confident in saying that if JA is convicted of murder 1, with or without the DP, she will indeed blame it all on Nurmi and Wilmott, and/or anyone else who failed to understand her scrambled little brain, to include the jurors, the judge, and the prosecutor and any witness brought to the stand, they will all be "full of crap".

 

[G&AMom]

'mornin' guyz :seeya:

Finally got around to listening to last Sunday's True Crime radio show, with Tricia, katiecoolady, Dr. Glass and Holly Hughes. As always, it was enjoyable and informative and thought-provoking, but an idea suddenly popped into my head as I was listening to the podcast:

Does anyone else get the impression that Nurmi wants his client to be found guilty? My understanding is that he tried to get himself removed from this case, and couldn't. So maybe he figured, well, it's my job but I don't have to do it well. And, in my humble opinion as a non-lawyer, he is doing a terrible job. But...on purpose? (Then again, look what he has to work with...a sociopath who thinks she's smarter than he is!)

BUT... if JA is found guilty (and how can she not be?) and gets the DP, can Arias use Nurmi's "ineffective counsel" and that perhaps he was prejudiced against her from the get-go, as a weapon in the appeals process?

Thoughts?

I wish I could say he was throwing the case, but in fact, unfortunately for Nurmi, I think he is like you say a terrible lawyer.

I think defendants can always claim ineffective counsel, especially when that's their only grounds for appeal. It might work in this case, but I doubt it. When it concerns things like that bank statement and filling the gas cans, Jodi could have told her lawyers about it. It's her own fault (as is everything else).

 

[manzana]

So people do not have to read sideways.



These are all FROM Travis TO JA April 2008 (I think - if not, its close) (illegible) you have that information. its 15 minutes it would take to gt the info. But you won't take 15 minutes. Why because it is an Fing lie. So either text me you that you are ready to tell the truth or give me your imaginary friend with the worst BS story you have ever told or leave me alone. Its a lie like no other. It is freaking foolish. There is no way out of it, you have screwed up your story so bad you can't mend it. You are caught. When will you realize that. I do not know. You have til tomorrow. to have me this persons information before I tell all of the hughes' leslie udy, the freemans, your parents and anyone else that matters about all the crazy things you have done. So either fess up or feel the wrath. No matter how bad the truth is I promise you the punishment will be better than the lie. This is worse than your magical email that a mysterious man you've never seen before wrote for you. You insult me by thinking ill believe such crap. nothing else from you til the truth. I already know your lying so why continue. After tomorrow, its gonna get real bad for you. Time to spit it out. ----------------------------- These 3 are all part of one long text, no replies from JA in between: 05/26/08 at 07:59:15am I sent you a response to your dire conversation, that I hope youread because you need to read it. Maybe it will spark human emotion in you, something that only seems to exist when it comes to your own problems. But everyone else is just a part of your sick agenda. By the way, your pic comment to Danny Jones makes you look like a pure *advertiser censored*, even more to the people who know you. You should be embarrassed by it. If he knew what I knew about you he'd spit in ur face. Sow ould everyone else. I have never never in my life been hurt so bad by someone. But why do I even say it because you don't care. It doesn't serve your evilness. 05/26/08 at 08:35:02am You couldn't get off your lazy butt to to read it could you. That's the sociopath (I) know so well. it freakin figures 05/26/08 at 09:11:11am I don't want your apology I want you to understand what I think of you. I want you to understand how evil I think you are. You are the worst thing that ever happened to me.

 

[GoodGurl]

The biggest question for me remains as to how did she manage to get from the super-angry text messages to taking nekked pics with him again??

What happened in the middle? I can't imagine a simple apology would do it. I can't imagine that even telling the truth would do it. And from what we know, they only talked on the phone one other time.

But the pics don't seem IMO to be coerced (I wondered at first, but FOR ME, it's been established that it was consensual).

Maybe it is as simple as a guy thinking with his little brain...I dunno.

 

[Ricki]

It was Paperwing that typed the long portion up originally (she deserves the shout out).

Yes, I agree. After reading about the identity theft by the brother, it gives a whole new slant on how Travis viewed Jodi's snooping. I hope the police release the mugshot. Isn't that a public document? I know they've told Travis' brother they won't release it, but I wonder why not.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...d=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk1&pLid=282451

"They said they would release it to the prosecution," he said.

 

[DebinGA]

He is so dynamic, it actually comes through the television. Like you, I see a lot of public speaking/performance for my job as well and I can only agree, he's nothing short of commanding.

I've seen prosecutors who also had command of the facts of their case, but none with the phenomenal memory of who said what when, right up to the current moment, that JM displays. He's in a class by himself.

 

[luvtenniss]

First official post for me! I've been a lurker here since the trial started and I've really enjoyed a lot of the posts. This may have come up already and I know that there are a lot of posts regarding JA and her intelligence. But does anyone else find the journals totally childlike and ridiculous? They remind me in the ones I did as a 8 year old. The weird upbeat tone, over the top glee about mundane things and signing it with her name at the end??? It's almost like she knew someone besides herself would be reading these someday (narcissist) and wanted to portray her life in a certain way. They strike me as really false and immature. And don't get me started on the entry about "falling asleep" at TA's house after cleaning. She wasn't even honest in her journal about waiting him to come home from his date with Mimi! As far as I'm concerned if you lie in your journal about your jealousies and motivations you have a serious personality disorder. :twocents:

WELCOME - great post!!! And, yes, she lied to her journals, too. But, according to Nurmi, we are supposed to believe them as fact - even the "ripped out" pages.

 

[ElleElle]

This in the text confuses me:

You have til tomorrow. to
have me this persons
information before I tell all
of the hughes' leslie udy,
the freemans, your parents
and anyone else that
matters about all the crazy
things you have done.

1. Why until tomorrow?
2. Who is this person Travis speaks of?

My thought: Travis figured out someone hacked into Facebook, emails & Jodi lied about it after he called her on it. She tries to undo the damage by telling him it was someone else and not her? He doesn't buy it.

 

[newshound6]

So people do not have to read sideways.



These are all FROM Travis TO JA April 2008 (I think - if not, its close) (illegible) you have that information. its 15 minutes it would take to gt the info. But you won't take 15 minutes. Why because it is an Fing lie. So either text me you that you are ready to tell the truth or give me your imaginary friend with the worst BS story you have ever told or leave me alone. Its a lie like no other. It is freaking foolish. There is no way out of it, you have screwed up your story so bad you can't mend it. You are caught. When will you realize that. I do not know. You have til tomorrow. to have me this persons information before I tell all of the hughes' leslie udy, the freemans, your parents and anyone else that matters about all the crazy things you have done. So either fess up or feel the wrath. No matter how bad the truth is I promise you the punishment will be better than the lie. This is worse than your magical email that a mysterious man you've never seen before wrote for you. You insult me by thinking ill believe such crap. nothing else from you til the truth. I already know your lying so why continue. After tomorrow, its gonna get real bad for you. Time to spit it out. ----------------------------- These 3 are all part of one long text, no replies from JA in between: 05/26/08 at 07:59:15am I sent you a response to your dire conversation, that I hope youread because you need to read it. Maybe it will spark human emotion in you, something that only seems to exist when it comes to your own problems. But everyone else is just a part of your sick agenda. By the way, your pic comment to Danny Jones makes you look like a pure *advertiser censored*, even more to the people who know you. You should be embarrassed by it. If he knew what I knew about you he'd spit in ur face. Sow ould everyone else. I have never never in my life been hurt so bad by someone. But why do I even say it because you don't care. It doesn't serve your evilness. 05/26/08 at 08:35:02am You couldn't get off your lazy butt to to read it could you. That's the sociopath (I) know so well. it freakin figures 05/26/08 at 09:11:11am I don't want your apology I want you to understand what I think of you. I want you to understand how evil I think you are. You are the worst thing that ever happened to me.

OMG What is it about??!! It's the motive-I think most of us believe that.Someone beside JA & TA must know something!!!

 

[Rosemary Pierce]

First official post for me! I've been a lurker here since the trial started and I've really enjoyed a lot of the posts. This may have come up already and I know that there are a lot of posts regarding JA and her intelligence. But does anyone else find the journals totally childlike and ridiculous? They remind me in the ones I did as a 8 year old. The weird upbeat tone, over the top glee about mundane things and signing it with her name at the end??? It's almost like she knew someone besides herself would be reading these someday (narcissist) and wanted to portray her life in a certain way. They strike me as really false and immature. And don't get me started on the entry about "falling asleep" at TA's house after cleaning. She wasn't even honest in her journal about waiting him to come home from his date with Mimi! As far as I'm concerned if you lie in your journal about your jealousies and motivations you have a serious personality disorder. :twocents:

:welcome:

 

[G&AMom]

As a hypothetical exercise and given the facts of the case as now known what defense strategy would be best for JA – assuming her aim is to 1) minimize jail time and 2) avoid the death penalty?

OPTION 1
One line of thought (and I think this is a good one) is simply to come clean and “fall on your sword”.
In this instance JA would declare she was angry and hurt. There was rage and passion in the killing. Plead for mercy and hope for a 1st degree conviction without death penalty.

OPTION 2
The second line is the above referenced Hail Mary defense. In this instance, JA manufactures a story that explains ALL inculpating circumstances and then claims mitigation based on self-defense. The thinking here is that there is an outside chance of getting a 2nd degree conviction. The worst case scenario is getting a 1st degree conviction. Because so much effort and expense dedicated to this elaborate defense, the death penalty is removed off of the table. The risk of course is that the jury rejects the entire defense “façade” and instead opts to penalize JA with the death penalty.

Now if the considerations adhered to the rules of “game theory” what would a utility maximizing rational agent do?
OPTION 1 Pay Off Results = 80% chance of life imprisonment – no parole. 20% chance of death penalty
OPTION 2 Payoff Results = 20% chance of 2nd degree conviction. 50% chance of life imprisonment. 30% chance of death penalty.
Which option would a rational agent choose?

Option 1 might have worked if it weren't for all the premeditation IMO. If she'd gone to Mesa openly and claimed self-defense right off the bat, she might have gotten away with it. But once she went into all the elaborate preparations, the gas cans, turning off her cell phone, tell everybody she was going everywhere BUT Mesa, she really was prevented from any claim of self defense.