Is a fall involved?

[wengr]

Garland on the stairs has got me thinking. One of the most interesting aspects of this case for me has always been the double injuries, bash and garrote. Always seemed odd. What if JBR was assualted upstairs(manual strangulation perhaps), and then the assailant, (or their parent) tripped while carrying her down the stairs? I am familiar with those prefab metal spiral staircases, and I know that I would not want to walk down one while carrying an incapacitated child - especially in the dark. Or maybe it was not the spiral, but the other stairs. So my questions are:
Do we know to what degree this was considered and investigated?
To what degree have investigators ruled out the skull damage as having been a result of falling down the stairs and impacting the stair features, or the floor below or some item on the floor below?

It seems within the realm of possibility to me that the child could be dropped accidentally causing the skull damage, and due to the lack of any external sign, she is picked up and the plan continues. In this scenario, bats and golf clubs would have no role in the crime, and it's quite possible that no one had any idea of the skull damage and it does not need to figure into the crime theory as it was happenstance.
So - what do we know that would rule this out?
And as always, it's just moo and sorry if I'm reinventing the wheel here.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Garland on the stairs has got me thinking. One of the most interesting aspects of this case for me has always been the double injuries, bash and garrote. Always seemed odd. What if JBR was assualted upstairs(manual strangulation perhaps), and then the assailant, (or their parent) tripped while carrying her down the stairs? I am familiar with those prefab metal spiral staircases, and I know that I would not want to walk down one while carrying an incapacitated child - especially in the dark. Or maybe it was not the spiral, but the other stairs. So my questions are:
Do we know to what degree this was considered and investigated?
To what degree have investigators ruled out the skull damage as having been a result of falling down the stairs and impacting the stair features, or the floor below or some item on the floor below?

It seems within the realm of possibility to me that the child could be dropped accidentally causing the skull damage, and due to the lack of any external sign, she is picked up and the plan continues. In this scenario, bats and golf clubs would have no role in the crime, and it's quite possible that no one had any idea of the skull damage and it does not need to figure into the crime theory as it was happenstance.
So - what do we know that would rule this out?
And as always, it's just moo and sorry if I'm reinventing the wheel here.

O, don't worry about 'reinventing the wheel'...because we all do this from time to time...I think this discussion already has been attempted. And the best poster to answer your questions is DeeDee.

IMO, if JB did fall then she should fall on something that is not FLAT (not floor). However, if something heavy was laying down ON the floor to cause such a oval depression hole in her head then maybe. If her head would have just linear fracture then MAYBE the fall could cause such an injury...but in this case, I would expect more INTERNAL injuries as well....IDK. Hate to provide wrong answer...

jmo

 

[dodie20]

Garland on the stairs has got me thinking. One of the most interesting aspects of this case for me has always been the double injuries, bash and garrote. Always seemed odd. What if JBR was assualted upstairs(manual strangulation perhaps), and then the assailant, (or their parent) tripped while carrying her down the stairs? I am familiar with those prefab metal spiral staircases, and I know that I would not want to walk down one while carrying an incapacitated child - especially in the dark. Or maybe it was not the spiral, but the other stairs. So my questions are:
Do we know to what degree this was considered and investigated?
To what degree have investigators ruled out the skull damage as having been a result of falling down the stairs and impacting the stair features, or the floor below or some item on the floor below?

It seems within the realm of possibility to me that the child could be dropped accidentally causing the skull damage, and due to the lack of any external sign, she is picked up and the plan continues. In this scenario, bats and golf clubs would have no role in the crime, and it's quite possible that no one had any idea of the skull damage and it does not need to figure into the crime theory as it was happenstance.
So - what do we know that would rule this out?
And as always, it's just moo and sorry if I'm reinventing the wheel here.

I've given the head bash quite a lot of thought, and because of a personal experience involving my daughter when she was 3, this is what I think MIGHT have happened. 1st of all, a little history on my daughter. She walked to the top of a swimming pool slide, turned to walk back down but slipped and fell to the concrete, where she landed on her forehead. The sound of her forehead hitting concrete was HUGE. I was scared to death and went into a panic. We took her to the ER, where SHE was questioned and then we were told that she would have a big 'goose egg', etc., but there ended up not being any bruising or anything. She's 24 now and has a little line on her forehead that looks like a shadow...like a little fissure? We had it checked out, but the dr said it was too small for surgery and would eventually close back up. IDK if the original fall caused the fissure or if an abusive bf did, because he hit her in the exact same place. I've also thought that maybe him repounding the same, already damaged spot, might have caused the fissure. Anyway, my main points are...the skull, (even a child's), is a LOT tougher than we think, and it can withstand a lot of force. Also, skull injuries can, ( maybe not always), cause an audible noise. The sound of my daughter's bone impacting with the concrete was so loud that a man in the house heard the noise, and thought someone had cracked open a coconut with a hammer. So, based on personal experience, it's my belief that the person who bashed JonBenet's skull, probably heard the sound of the impact and probabaly also heard the skull crack and break. The skull is thick, but not thick enough to muffle the noise of a big break, IMO.

 

[dodie20]

When JB was bashed, I think the damage caused an immediate reaction. Just guessing here, but I think it's possible that she seizured and went unconscious. This may explain why she was carried down the stairs, if indeed she was. I remember reading that there was drool or mucous on her face? could this have come from a seizure? Whatever her reaction was, it's MOO that somebody hit her as hard as she/he could. A massive blow that was meant to kill. She/he left a hole the size of the grand canyon in JB's skull, and it looks like to me, that someone wanted to do more than quieten her...more like obliterate her. After seeing with my own 2 eyes the different forces that my daughter's skull withstood, I can barely imagine the force used on JB's skull. It really is horrible that somebody is getting away with this. moo

 

[DeeDee249]

Absolutely NO WAY she tumbled down the stairs, with or without someone carrying her. Two reasons: There would have been very visible bruising all over her body, and the skull fracture would be different.
The coroner can tell.

So can a hospital. How many children are the victims of beatings and worse by parents who tell the emergency room doctors that he child "fell down the stairs"? Sometimes it is the truth-but when it isn't- they ALWAYS can tell.

And a fall would not produce a fracture like that, even if she fell on something. Physics. She was not heavy enough, nor would the fall have been from high enough.
This was what the coroner said it was. Blunt Force Trauma.

 

[dodie20]

Absolutely NO WAY she tumbled down the stairs, with or without someone carrying her. Two reasons: There would have been very visible bruising all over her body, and the skull fracture would be different.
The coroner can tell.

So can a hospital. How many children are the victims of beatings and worse by parents who tell the emergency room doctors that he child "fell down the stairs"? Sometimes it is the truth-but when it isn't- they ALWAYS can tell.

And a fall would not produce a fracture like that, even if she fell on something. Physics. She was not heavy enough, nor would the fall have been from high enough.
This was what the coroner said it was. Blunt Force Trauma.

and I think you're exactly right on this. My daughter fell from the top of a slide on to concrete, and even though the sound was horrible, she ended up not being very injured. I think maybe like you mentioned, it might have been because of her light weight. Now when she was about 20, the boyfriend situation was a different story. Both eyes were black, her face was swollen and bruised and like I said, I noticed the 'shadow', which turned out to be a little fissure. Even so, everything considered, she didn't suffer much permanent damage. Which makes me wonder even more what JB was hit with and how hard she was hit.

 

[pageantmom]

I don't think she fell. I just don't believe a fall could have done that. Personally I think that the little weights she had in her bedroom (which were missing after the murder, correct?) were what hurt her. Someone on this forum said they would have been the right size and shape if I remember correctly. The weights by the way would not have been used for exercise but most likely for fitness wear. Does anyone know if any of JonBenet's pageants had fitness as an optional? Looking at the pageant websites today will not help as they change over the years. I haven't seen a pageant have a fitness wear optional in a good ten or twelve years. But back in the day they did and the little girls all carried tiny pink or lavender one or two pound weights. They didn't exercise with them they were just a prop for modeling.

 

[aussiegirl]

I don't think it could have been a fall. When I was 7 1/2 I fell headfirst off a top bunk onto a concrete floor. I ended up with a 2.5cm crack in my skull, but even a fall from quite a height onto a concrete floor that was VERY hard, left only a crack in my skull and nothing near the type of head injury JBR had.