"IT WAS AN ACCIDENT"
- Thread starter gaia
- Start date
By reading tho autopsy you see that the strangulation is a very gentle one. No trauma to the bottom of the tongue or the thyroid cartilage. This impliactes that the garrote was staging. If the garrote was staging then why?
Cause of death is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma. No indication of which happened first. The brain was swollen, IMO indicating that the blow happened first.
IMO, JBR was alive after the blow and died by asphyxia caused by the cord around her neck.
Cause of death is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma. No indication of which happened first. The brain was swollen, IMO indicating that the blow happened first.
IMO, JBR was alive after the blow and died by asphyxia caused by the cord around her neck.
The death of JonBenet could indeed have been an accident. IMO the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was not designed to be a garrote for killing purposes; it was designed as a breath control sexual tool.
If the perp wanted to kill JonBenet he could have strangled her with his bare hands. There would have been no need to construct an elaborate ligature device that included a slip knot and a wooden handle. Garrotes for killing are usually nothing more than a simple length of rope or wire with no knots or attachments.
IMO the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was used by the killer to perform erotic asphyxiation on her. Accidental deaths as a result of EA, according to the FBI, amount to as many as 1,000 per year in the U.S. It's hard to get an accurate figure because the families of the victims usually try to coverup the real cause of the deaths because of embarrassment.
Even John Ramsey agrees that EA had been used on JonBenet. In his profiling of the killer during an interview with Lisa Levitt Ryckman of the Denver Rocky Mountain News, John said, "He is a pedophile with a preference for little girls. He is a sociopath experienced with autoerotic asphyxiation, the use of garrotes to enhance sex."
BlueCrab
If the perp wanted to kill JonBenet he could have strangled her with his bare hands. There would have been no need to construct an elaborate ligature device that included a slip knot and a wooden handle. Garrotes for killing are usually nothing more than a simple length of rope or wire with no knots or attachments.
IMO the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was used by the killer to perform erotic asphyxiation on her. Accidental deaths as a result of EA, according to the FBI, amount to as many as 1,000 per year in the U.S. It's hard to get an accurate figure because the families of the victims usually try to coverup the real cause of the deaths because of embarrassment.
Even John Ramsey agrees that EA had been used on JonBenet. In his profiling of the killer during an interview with Lisa Levitt Ryckman of the Denver Rocky Mountain News, John said, "He is a pedophile with a preference for little girls. He is a sociopath experienced with autoerotic asphyxiation, the use of garrotes to enhance sex."
BlueCrab
Wudge
New Member
BlueCrab said:
Agree 100% (you have done well at Jameson ... chuckle)
elaborate ligature device that included a slip knot
The autopsy describes the knot as a doubleknot. Are you supposing it was a collapsed doubleknot? In that case a collapsed doubleknot would not keep the cord tight around the neck like we see in the autopsy photos.
Garrotes for killing are usually nothing more than a simple length of rope or wire with no knots or attachments.
Totally agree.
Even John Ramsey agrees that EA had been used on JonBenet
Was JR knowledgeable about garrotes? He describes the garrote as a twister. No way that could have worked as a twister.
autoerotic asphyxiation, the use of garrotes to enhance sex
This term applies to the person being denied oxygen enjoing the moment.
The autopsy describes the knot as a doubleknot. Are you supposing it was a collapsed doubleknot? In that case a collapsed doubleknot would not keep the cord tight around the neck like we see in the autopsy photos.
Garrotes for killing are usually nothing more than a simple length of rope or wire with no knots or attachments.
Totally agree.
Even John Ramsey agrees that EA had been used on JonBenet
Was JR knowledgeable about garrotes? He describes the garrote as a twister. No way that could have worked as a twister.
autoerotic asphyxiation, the use of garrotes to enhance sex
This term applies to the person being denied oxygen enjoing the moment.
Sherlockmom
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>The Denver area media is still reluctant to let the Ramseys off. The Rocky Mountain News wrote on April 26, 2003 that Dr. Henry Lee, "the most prominent criminologist to work on the JonBenet Ramsey case remains unsure whether the child was murdered or died in what started as an accident."<
An accident would be if she fell down the stairs or fell in the pool. That's an accident. If someone was molesting this little girl and she died during the course of that molestation that is NOT an accident. That is a little girl dying during the course of a crime and that's more like being PUSHED down the stairs or into the pool.
There are many ways to make things look like an accident without bashing in heads, strangling and sticking foreign objects into body orifices. This was no accident. Sometimes I wonder about the looney tunes people these news stations put on the air. There seems to be little common sense anymore and alot of lead in the water or something. I think they are just looking for ways to fill air time and keep people watching.
An accident would be if she fell down the stairs or fell in the pool. That's an accident. If someone was molesting this little girl and she died during the course of that molestation that is NOT an accident. That is a little girl dying during the course of a crime and that's more like being PUSHED down the stairs or into the pool.
There are many ways to make things look like an accident without bashing in heads, strangling and sticking foreign objects into body orifices. This was no accident. Sometimes I wonder about the looney tunes people these news stations put on the air. There seems to be little common sense anymore and alot of lead in the water or something. I think they are just looking for ways to fill air time and keep people watching.
Maybe So
The one and only
I remember when LE was stating that it was possible that JBRs murder might have been accidental. I assume they think AE gone too far....or that her death was an accident then made to look like a murder.
Myself. I don't think the garotte was a sexual tool. I think the Garotte was meant to kill her and so was the blow to the head. I think whoever killed her meant to kill her...they may have derived some sexual pleasure from it but then why no semen around the body?
That this murder was intentional is one of the reasons I still believe it possible that an intruder murdered JBR...This murder was heinous and violent and JBR didn't go easily..I just don't see the parents being that sadistic with no history before or since of that kind of behavior.
People can and do murder their kids but usually they strike out in anger and unintentionally cause death they don't use a garotte. Other times they may be disturbed individuals who drown or suffocate their children, these people stand out as menally ill most of the time. Finally you may have parent commit a violent intentional murder of a child but usually that is by a parent who is obviously dangerous and deranged also. You also have those cases of murder to stop a child reporting sexual abuse. But I can't think of another case where a murder this violent and heartless was performed or covered up by seamingly normal doting parents (especially both parents ) who did not have histories of domestic abuse, neglect, and/or mental illness.
Myself. I don't think the garotte was a sexual tool. I think the Garotte was meant to kill her and so was the blow to the head. I think whoever killed her meant to kill her...they may have derived some sexual pleasure from it but then why no semen around the body?
That this murder was intentional is one of the reasons I still believe it possible that an intruder murdered JBR...This murder was heinous and violent and JBR didn't go easily..I just don't see the parents being that sadistic with no history before or since of that kind of behavior.
People can and do murder their kids but usually they strike out in anger and unintentionally cause death they don't use a garotte. Other times they may be disturbed individuals who drown or suffocate their children, these people stand out as menally ill most of the time. Finally you may have parent commit a violent intentional murder of a child but usually that is by a parent who is obviously dangerous and deranged also. You also have those cases of murder to stop a child reporting sexual abuse. But I can't think of another case where a murder this violent and heartless was performed or covered up by seamingly normal doting parents (especially both parents ) who did not have histories of domestic abuse, neglect, and/or mental illness.
PagingDrDetect
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"Is that really a homicide or just a bizarre accident and subsequently the scene was staged?"
~ Dr. Henry Lee
No, it is NOT a bizarre accident. The same way it isn't a bizarre accident if I load up a gun, point it at your head, close my eyes and pull the trigger. "Well, damn! It was just an accident that he died when the bullet went into his head! I closed my eyes, so the fact that the bullet actually went into his head and killed him was just a bizarre accident! It's his fault that closing my eyes didn't alter my aim enough for the bullet to miss him!" RUBBISH.
The same way it isn't a bizzare accident if you're standing on a roof six floors up, I push you, and you fall off the roof to splat on the pavement. "Well, damn! It was just an accident that he fell off the roof to his death when I pushed him! It's his fault he lost his balance when I pushed him!" RUBBISH.
The same way it isn't a bizarre accident if I hold your head under water for awhile and you drown. "Well damn! It was just an accident that he died when I held his head underwater until he drowned! How was I to know he didn't have the lung capacity of a Navy SEAL! It's his fault for drowning because he couldn't hold his breath long enough!" RUBBISH.
The same way it isn't a bizarre accident if I put a garrot around your neck, pull it tight for awhile, and just as you are dying I bash your head hard enough to put an 8.5 inch fracture in your skull and blow a skull fragment right off. "Well damn! How was I to know that strangling someone for awhile would kill them and bashing their head really hard wouldn't bring them back to life!" RUBBISH.
Go ahead and put a garrot around someone's neck, pull it tight for awhile and then bash their head hard enough to put an 8.5 inch fracture in your skull and blow a skull fragment right off, and then have the absolute collosal nerve to claim that the person died by accident... see how that works out for you in court, Dr. Lee. Any reasonable thinking person knows that if you strangle someone for awhile they are likely to die because of it, and adding the head bashing hard enough to put an 8.5 inch fracture in their skull and blow a skull fragment right off is even MORE likely to kill them, and if they DO die because of this WILLFUL conduct, you murdered them. PERIOD.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/51/sections/section_1111.html
U.S. CODE (Laws Made by U.S. Congress)
CHAPTER 15 - HOMICIDE
Section 1111. Murder
(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Every murder perpetrated by poison, lying in wait, or any other kind of willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing;
OR committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson, escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual abuse or sexual abuse, child abuse, burglary, or robbery;
OR perpetrated as part of a pattern or practice of assault or torture against a child or children;
or perpetrated from a premeditated design unlawfully and maliciously to effect the death of any human being other than him who is killed, is murder in the first degree.
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_first_degree.html
Murder: First Degree -
In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim.
Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.
Yes, it is a homocide, and yes, it is First Degree Murder.
The End.
~ Dr. Henry Lee
No, it is NOT a bizarre accident. The same way it isn't a bizarre accident if I load up a gun, point it at your head, close my eyes and pull the trigger. "Well, damn! It was just an accident that he died when the bullet went into his head! I closed my eyes, so the fact that the bullet actually went into his head and killed him was just a bizarre accident! It's his fault that closing my eyes didn't alter my aim enough for the bullet to miss him!" RUBBISH.
The same way it isn't a bizzare accident if you're standing on a roof six floors up, I push you, and you fall off the roof to splat on the pavement. "Well, damn! It was just an accident that he fell off the roof to his death when I pushed him! It's his fault he lost his balance when I pushed him!" RUBBISH.
The same way it isn't a bizarre accident if I hold your head under water for awhile and you drown. "Well damn! It was just an accident that he died when I held his head underwater until he drowned! How was I to know he didn't have the lung capacity of a Navy SEAL! It's his fault for drowning because he couldn't hold his breath long enough!" RUBBISH.
The same way it isn't a bizarre accident if I put a garrot around your neck, pull it tight for awhile, and just as you are dying I bash your head hard enough to put an 8.5 inch fracture in your skull and blow a skull fragment right off. "Well damn! How was I to know that strangling someone for awhile would kill them and bashing their head really hard wouldn't bring them back to life!" RUBBISH.
Go ahead and put a garrot around someone's neck, pull it tight for awhile and then bash their head hard enough to put an 8.5 inch fracture in your skull and blow a skull fragment right off, and then have the absolute collosal nerve to claim that the person died by accident... see how that works out for you in court, Dr. Lee. Any reasonable thinking person knows that if you strangle someone for awhile they are likely to die because of it, and adding the head bashing hard enough to put an 8.5 inch fracture in their skull and blow a skull fragment right off is even MORE likely to kill them, and if they DO die because of this WILLFUL conduct, you murdered them. PERIOD.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/51/sections/section_1111.html
U.S. CODE (Laws Made by U.S. Congress)
CHAPTER 15 - HOMICIDE
Section 1111. Murder
(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Every murder perpetrated by poison, lying in wait, or any other kind of willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing;
OR committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson, escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual abuse or sexual abuse, child abuse, burglary, or robbery;
OR perpetrated as part of a pattern or practice of assault or torture against a child or children;
or perpetrated from a premeditated design unlawfully and maliciously to effect the death of any human being other than him who is killed, is murder in the first degree.
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_first_degree.html
Murder: First Degree -
In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim.
Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.
Yes, it is a homocide, and yes, it is First Degree Murder.
The End.
Under normal circumstances saying that a person was whacked on the head by accident would indeed sound strange.
But in this case we are facing facts. Not one scenario makes much sense to a normal person. You just have to follow the path of least resistance and try not to impose blocks that should not be there.
There must be a perp. Putting the blame on someone is equally hard regardless of who that person is.
I belive it is called accidental if you strike someone in rage without the intent to kill. Correct me if I am wrong on this, but thats it the meaning I think LE put on the term when they used it.
But in this case we are facing facts. Not one scenario makes much sense to a normal person. You just have to follow the path of least resistance and try not to impose blocks that should not be there.
There must be a perp. Putting the blame on someone is equally hard regardless of who that person is.
I belive it is called accidental if you strike someone in rage without the intent to kill. Correct me if I am wrong on this, but thats it the meaning I think LE put on the term when they used it.
packerdog
Well-Known Member
tumble said:
I agree tumble. I believe that someone (Patsy) went into a rage and pushed or threw JB against a fixture in her bathroom. She didn't mean to kill her but she didn't call 911 either. I think that when Hennry Lee states it may be an accident, he is thinking along those lines. JMO
tumble said:
tumble,
Yes, it appears the slip knot (the double knot) collapsed, preventing the ligature to loosen when it should have, thus accidentally strangling JonBenet.
John Ramsey was in the ballpark but wasn't totally aware of the nomenclature to use in describing the use of the EA device wrapped around JonBenet's neck. John incorrectly called it autoerotic asphyxiation (AEA). The correct term for him to use would have been erotic asphyxiation (EA).
AEA is when the subject is masturbating by himself (or herself) by using a ligature of some kind wrapped around the neck to limit the flow of air to the lungs and blood to the brain. It's a highly dangerous sex practice.
Erotic asphyxiation (EA) is when the subject is masturbating with the help of a partner. The partner usually ties up the subject to prevent the subject from involuntarily ripping away the ligature before the orgasm is achieved, thus ruining the enhanced orgasm. (The body will not willingly let itself be strangled to death.) The partner contols the amount of tension on the ligature wrapped around the subject's neck since the subject's hands are tied.
Therefore, IMO JonBenet could have died accidentally while engaged in EA. The sadistic tightening of the ligature around the neck and the horrific bash in the head would have been staging to make the accidental death look like the work of a terrorist during a botched kidnapping, thus naively covering up the sexual aspects of the death and directing suspicion away from the family.
BlueCrab
BlueCrab:
Yes, it appears the slip knot (the double knot) collapsed, preventing the ligature to loosen when it should have, thus accidentally strangling JonBenet.
I don't understand this. I must say I don't know about these things but wouldn't you prefer something safer than knots when attempting asphyxia. Also a working doubleknot would not allow the knot to loosen. Also the knot seen in the autopsy photos does not seem to be a slipknot as it is able to hold a fairly high tension.
Therefore, IMO JonBenet could have died accidentally while engaged in EA
But this implies that the garrote was uses for JB's pleasure. Somthing I have hard(to put it mildly...) to believe.
The sadistic tightening of the ligature
This is easier to believe. Meaning the whole purpose of the garrote was sadistic.
I just don't see how the garrote could have functioned that way. Why not just strangle her with bare hands, or a ligature without any knots?
Yes, it appears the slip knot (the double knot) collapsed, preventing the ligature to loosen when it should have, thus accidentally strangling JonBenet.
I don't understand this. I must say I don't know about these things but wouldn't you prefer something safer than knots when attempting asphyxia. Also a working doubleknot would not allow the knot to loosen. Also the knot seen in the autopsy photos does not seem to be a slipknot as it is able to hold a fairly high tension.
Therefore, IMO JonBenet could have died accidentally while engaged in EA
But this implies that the garrote was uses for JB's pleasure. Somthing I have hard(to put it mildly...) to believe.
The sadistic tightening of the ligature
This is easier to believe. Meaning the whole purpose of the garrote was sadistic.
I just don't see how the garrote could have functioned that way. Why not just strangle her with bare hands, or a ligature without any knots?
As I understand it, this isn't uncommon among pedophiles. The asphyxiation causes involuntary sexual arousal, which enhances the pedophile's pleasure - lets them believe the kid is liking it, whatever. I don't know too much about it (don't want to!), but I heard about that from a child advocate who had been molested herself.
The asphyxiation causes involuntary sexual arousal, which enhances the pedophile's pleasure
Interesting. Do you mean a 6 year old actually is forced to arousal? Can a 6 year old girl be aroused at all?
Learning something new every day.
Interesting. Do you mean a 6 year old actually is forced to arousal? Can a 6 year old girl be aroused at all?
Learning something new every day.
gaia
Cat Servant
There are just soooo many ways to go with this ligature aspect. Let's begin with the remote possibility Burke was "playing" with JonBenet, she got tired of the game and was beginning to suffocate as well and fought back, he bashed her on the head and essentially killed her. Or, how about Patsy got mad at JonBenet in the bathroom, pushed her against something hard and bonked her head, Patsy panicked and thought JonBenet was dead but didn't want the world to know she had killed her daughter in such a manner, took her down to the basement, feeling scattered - she couldn't come up with a simple thing to do so she did the ligature and broken paintbrush, staged her in that room, came back upstairs and decided she had to come up with something else so she fiddled over that crazy ransom note. Or, John may have done this inadvertently while using JonBenet as a sexual toy. Or, it's even been speculated other friends of the Ramseys belonged to a sick sexual club and used JonBenet for their fun and games and things got out of hand (I stll wonder about all those folks rushing over that morning!!!).
I'm sure there are more of these theories. We've all read them and hashed through the ideas behind them for years now. Deal is, ANYONE participating in ANY of those possible scenarios would NEVER say the death was ANYTHING but an ACCIDENT!!!
Who's going to step up to the plate and say they killed JonBenet and it was no accident!!!
I'm sure there are more of these theories. We've all read them and hashed through the ideas behind them for years now. Deal is, ANYONE participating in ANY of those possible scenarios would NEVER say the death was ANYTHING but an ACCIDENT!!!
Who's going to step up to the plate and say they killed JonBenet and it was no accident!!!
"There are experts that believe the blow was struck first."
Yes.
"And it makes more sense, if you study the lack of function in how the garrote was constructed, being tied with her hair entagled in the knot, not something you do on a concious victim. The garrote smells staging."
Absolutely! The garrote was purely for visual effect. The FBI CASKU division went over it and said that the ligature, the wrist ties and the sexual assault were staging. They based that on several facts: 1) the autopsy showed no real damage to the neck internals; 2) the garrote was constructed in such haste that the killer tied her hair into it and was constructed in a way where it effectiveness as a practical weapon was very limited; 3) the wrist ties were so loose, the coroner was able to just slip them off; 4) the injuries from the sexual assault were minimal, not at all like you'd find from a prolonged session of molestation; 5) a ransom note was left. The motivations of pedophile kidnappers and ransom kidnappers are different as night and day. Pedophiles don't leave notes asking for money. If an intruder broke in intending to molest her and kill her, then decided to leave a note, wouldn't it read more like, "Do you know where your daughter is? I do. She's a great
*," etc, etc.
"I do not recall an "expert" who thought as you said. Do you have particulars?"
I do, Wudge. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry and Henry Lee are just two of them.
"I have no recollection whatsover of Dr. Lee saying that."
Look in his book "Cracking More Cases."
"This poor innocent six year old child was not only murdered, she was grossly TORTURED. And this FREAK Dr. Lee has the absolute solid brass dingle-dangles to even IMAGINE that there was NO killer???"
You don't understand, doc. There's no real evidence that she felt anything beyond the head blow.
"By reading tho autopsy you see that the strangulation is a very gentle one. No trauma to the bottom of the tongue or the thyroid cartilage. This impliactes that the garrote was staging. If the garrote was staging then why?"
Exactly! Why would a sexual predator intruder stage a scene to LOOK like a sexual predator intruder?
"Cause of death is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma. No indication of which happened first. The brain was swollen, IMO indicating that the blow happened first."
Yes. People forget that it's actually common to have massive skull fractures with no bleeding at all. Her brain swelled against the skull. That's the important part.
"I agree tumble. I believe that someone (Patsy) went into a rage and pushed or threw JB against a fixture in her bathroom. She didn't mean to kill her but she didn't call 911 either. I think that when Hennry Lee states it may be an accident, he is thinking along those lines. JMO"
Yes, when he says "accident," he means the murder was not intentional, but more along the lines of, "Oh, God! She's dead! I didn't mean to hit her so hard! i just wanted her to be quiet," etc, etc.
Yes.
"And it makes more sense, if you study the lack of function in how the garrote was constructed, being tied with her hair entagled in the knot, not something you do on a concious victim. The garrote smells staging."
Absolutely! The garrote was purely for visual effect. The FBI CASKU division went over it and said that the ligature, the wrist ties and the sexual assault were staging. They based that on several facts: 1) the autopsy showed no real damage to the neck internals; 2) the garrote was constructed in such haste that the killer tied her hair into it and was constructed in a way where it effectiveness as a practical weapon was very limited; 3) the wrist ties were so loose, the coroner was able to just slip them off; 4) the injuries from the sexual assault were minimal, not at all like you'd find from a prolonged session of molestation; 5) a ransom note was left. The motivations of pedophile kidnappers and ransom kidnappers are different as night and day. Pedophiles don't leave notes asking for money. If an intruder broke in intending to molest her and kill her, then decided to leave a note, wouldn't it read more like, "Do you know where your daughter is? I do. She's a great
*," etc, etc."I do not recall an "expert" who thought as you said. Do you have particulars?"
I do, Wudge. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry and Henry Lee are just two of them.
"I have no recollection whatsover of Dr. Lee saying that."
Look in his book "Cracking More Cases."
"This poor innocent six year old child was not only murdered, she was grossly TORTURED. And this FREAK Dr. Lee has the absolute solid brass dingle-dangles to even IMAGINE that there was NO killer???"
You don't understand, doc. There's no real evidence that she felt anything beyond the head blow.
"By reading tho autopsy you see that the strangulation is a very gentle one. No trauma to the bottom of the tongue or the thyroid cartilage. This impliactes that the garrote was staging. If the garrote was staging then why?"
Exactly! Why would a sexual predator intruder stage a scene to LOOK like a sexual predator intruder?
"Cause of death is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma. No indication of which happened first. The brain was swollen, IMO indicating that the blow happened first."
Yes. People forget that it's actually common to have massive skull fractures with no bleeding at all. Her brain swelled against the skull. That's the important part.
"I agree tumble. I believe that someone (Patsy) went into a rage and pushed or threw JB against a fixture in her bathroom. She didn't mean to kill her but she didn't call 911 either. I think that when Hennry Lee states it may be an accident, he is thinking along those lines. JMO"
Yes, when he says "accident," he means the murder was not intentional, but more along the lines of, "Oh, God! She's dead! I didn't mean to hit her so hard! i just wanted her to be quiet," etc, etc.
"I do not recall an "expert" who thought as you said. Do you have particulars?"
I do, Wudge. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry and Henry Lee are just two of them.
Thanks for the info SD, my databank is just a third of yours( at the max..)
I do, Wudge. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry and Henry Lee are just two of them.
Thanks for the info SD, my databank is just a third of yours( at the max..)
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