"IT WAS AN ACCIDENT"

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

Has your theory changed at all with these new developments?

capps,

Not really. I try to hang loose with my various BDI theories since there's so much we don't know for sure. In my main theory John Karr, if he's telling the truth, would be the "fifth person" in the house that night.

IMO children were involved in this crime. From the evidence, the obvious coverup, and the behaviors of the Ramseys, the courts, and other principals, there appears to have been two or three perps, and one of them was an adult. The coverup protects the children.

BlueCrab

 

[BBB167893]

" I have always believed that no parent could do this to their child. Even in a fit of rage, a terrible blow to the head, would she have died instantly from that?"

Not necessarily.

""Wouldn't there be evidence of blood in the house where she was struck?"

The blow didn't break the skin, so no.

"After all, if we are talking about an accident, it would not have occurred in that out-of-the-way room in the basement, but more likely in the bathroom or bedroom, or perhaps as was suggested the stairway.
If she didn't die at once, there would have to have been a frenzy to decide how to handle the cover up, etc...while this child lay dying."

That's what a lot of investigators believe.

"It seems difficult to believe that a parent's first instinct would not be to call for medical help."

it is, isn't it?

 

[redbetty]

" I have always believed that no parent could do this to their child. Even in a fit of rage, a terrible blow to the head, would she have died instantly from that?"

Not necessarily.

""Wouldn't there be evidence of blood in the house where she was struck?"

The blow didn't break the skin, so no.

"After all, if we are talking about an accident, it would not have occurred in that out-of-the-way room in the basement, but more likely in the bathroom or bedroom, or perhaps as was suggested the stairway.
If she didn't die at once, there would have to have been a frenzy to decide how to handle the cover up, etc...while this child lay dying."

That's what a lot of investigators believe.

"It seems difficult to believe that a parent's first instinct would not be to call for medical help."

it is, isn't it?

I have always believed that it would be impossible for a parent to do such a thing.
However, the only reason I can see for a parent not to be a maniac about protecting their son from the same fate (kidnappers, child molesters, etc.) would be that they somehow knew there was no real threat. I just can't get past the fact that Burke's safety was not an issue to them. I wouldn't have trusted anyone with my living child after my daughter had been a victim to such a horrid crime right under my nose.

 

[BBB167893]

"However, the only reason I can see for a parent not to be a maniac about protecting their son from the same fate (kidnappers, child molesters, etc.) would be that they somehow knew there was no real threat."

Yeah, you wouldn't let him out of your sight for one second!

 

[RJML]

"Is that really a homicide or just a bizarre accident and subsequently the scene was staged?"
~ Dr. Henry Lee

No, it is NOT a bizarre accident. The same way it isn't a bizarre accident if I load up a gun, point it at your head, close my eyes and pull the trigger. "Well, damn! It was just an accident that he died when the bullet went into his head! I closed my eyes, so the fact that the bullet actually went into his head and killed him was just a bizarre accident! It's his fault that closing my eyes didn't alter my aim enough for the bullet to miss him!" RUBBISH.

The same way it isn't a bizzare accident if you're standing on a roof six floors up, I push you, and you fall off the roof to splat on the pavement. "Well, damn! It was just an accident that he fell off the roof to his death when I pushed him! It's his fault he lost his balance when I pushed him!" RUBBISH.

The same way it isn't a bizarre accident if I hold your head under water for awhile and you drown. "Well damn! It was just an accident that he died when I held his head underwater until he drowned! How was I to know he didn't have the lung capacity of a Navy SEAL! It's his fault for drowning because he couldn't hold his breath long enough!" RUBBISH.

The same way it isn't a bizarre accident if I put a garrot around your neck, pull it tight for awhile, and just as you are dying I bash your head hard enough to put an 8.5 inch fracture in your skull and blow a skull fragment right off. "Well damn! How was I to know that strangling someone for awhile would kill them and bashing their head really hard wouldn't bring them back to life!" RUBBISH.

Go ahead and put a garrot around someone's neck, pull it tight for awhile and then bash their head hard enough to put an 8.5 inch fracture in your skull and blow a skull fragment right off, and then have the absolute collosal nerve to claim that the person died by accident... see how that works out for you in court, Dr. Lee. Any reasonable thinking person knows that if you strangle someone for awhile they are likely to die because of it, and adding the head bashing hard enough to put an 8.5 inch fracture in their skull and blow a skull fragment right off is even MORE likely to kill them, and if they DO die because of this WILLFUL conduct, you murdered them. PERIOD.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/51/sections/section_1111.html
U.S. CODE (Laws Made by U.S. Congress)

CHAPTER 15 - HOMICIDE

Section 1111. Murder

(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Every murder perpetrated by poison, lying in wait, or any other kind of willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing;

OR committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson, escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual abuse or sexual abuse, child abuse, burglary, or robbery;

OR perpetrated as part of a pattern or practice of assault or torture against a child or children;

or perpetrated from a premeditated design unlawfully and maliciously to effect the death of any human being other than him who is killed, is murder in the first degree.


http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_first_degree.html
Murder: First Degree -

In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim.
Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.

Yes, it is a homocide, and yes, it is First Degree Murder.

The End.

You're missing the point. The whole jist of one saying it was an accident is to imply that the death maybe wasn't intentional. First, it is possible it was a full blown accident and then people decided to try and "stage" it being something else. Why? Who knows...but it IS possible. Second, it is possible whoever did this went a bit too far with something and she died so the person then decided to stage a diff style death. I don't see the point of this but again, it is possible.

Just because of how she was found doesn't mean that is how she died and the person who did it went in with the intention to bust open her skull and strangle her like that. It could be staged because she died accidentally and that is what you are missing and thus why some are saying it could have been accidental.

Having said that, it doesn't change the fact that if someone was abusing her and took it too far or whatever that they did kill her but again, there is a diff between plain ol' wanting to kill someone and just going too far and killing them anyway. I'd consider the latter to be deemed accidental even if they were doing something wrong. If I got into a fight and killed someone but only meant to injure them then I would think I accidentally killed them rather than intentional but again, I'd be responsible for the death.

BTW I have no clue about what happened to JB but I wouldn't rule out that her death wasn't the goal of whatever took place and indeed was "accidental" as the stuff surrounding is just too weird like why bust open the head and have a garrote and leave it there and all that jazz. Whatever the case, someone needs to go to jail for killing her.

 

[tumble]

Oh, yes, tumble, I remember that now. The latch was to keep kids out! Good catch. Yep, I think, if Burke did it, it must have happened somewhere else or the door was unlatched (as John said it was kept!!!) and Burke took her there to go somewhere no one would look. Then, the accident was discovered by the parents or he told them and they took over from there!

Sheesh, I dunno. I just think the Rams were involved. I just got through re-reading the Linda Arndt deposition in its entirety for the first time and she was just so convinced (as she saw John bring JB upstairs) HE had done it. She felt he was a molester at that very moment she saw him with the body and when she knelt down with him very close to the body, she said the look in his eyes truly weirded her out. Sure woulda weirded me out!!!

Truth be told, I just have to think this murder was accidental. To me, AIN'T NOBODY wanted this beautiful little girl DEAD. And, there was no kidnapping for ransom gone wrong...not in my book.:behindbar

I think this fact makes it unlikely that an intruder put JB in the wine cellar.

Instead this points to PR. She was the only one in the household that would latch the door. Subconciously she latched it going back to her 'hiding' routine.

An intruder would have no reason to latch it.

 

[redbetty]

I started contributing to this forum with the intention to be as neutral as possible, but I suppose I must be sounding like I believe the parents are guilty.

If the scenerio about the death being an accident, and the parents conspired (because it would certainly take both of them) to cover it up to avoid social scandal, it resolves the issue about why the Ramseys had so many people come to their home that terrible morning. By what accounts I remember they had some of the most wealthy and well regarded people of the community there, as well as clergy.
It feels a little like setting a stage of character witnesses to create an atmosphere where no one would question what was happening. The assembled group that morning was not the local trailer trash. I can't understand wanting all those people around. When you bounce a story off friends, and they accept it as truth, they become advocates for your version. Could this have been the reason for the cluster of people called in?

 

[tumble]

I started contributing to this forum with the intention to be as neutral as possible, but I suppose I must be sounding like I believe the parents are guilty.

If the scenerio about the death being an accident, and the parents conspired (because it would certainly take both of them) to cover it up to avoid social scandal, it resolves the issue about why the Ramseys had so many people come to their home that terrible morning. By what accounts I remember they had some of the most wealthy and well regarded people of the community there, as well as clergy.
It feels a little like setting a stage of character witnesses to create an atmosphere where no one would question what was happening. The assembled group that morning was not the local trailer trash. I can't understand wanting all those people around. When you bounce a story off friends, and they accept it as truth, they become advocates for your version. Could this have been the reason for the cluster of people called in?

Bringing those people over seem to have backfired then regarding Fleet White cause he seem to think they are guilty. Some have speculated that he noticed something when JB was found in the winecellar.

Like JR screaming BEFORE he turned the light on in the winecellar, like he knew JB was there.

FW had looked into that winecellar before that morning and didn't see anything because he didn't turn the light on.

 

[redbetty]

Bringing those people over seem to have backfired then regarding Fleet White cause he seem to think they are guilty. Some have speculated that he noticed something when JB was found in the winecellar.

Like JR screaming BEFORE he turned the light on in the winecellar, like he knew JB was there.

FW had looked into that winecellar before that morning and didn't see anything because he didn't turn the light on.

You are quite right - things did seem to backfire if that was the intention. But we can never be really sure how people will react. Maybe someone very rich and powerful felt that his contemporaries would accept the situation without question. Doesn't it feel to anyone else like the amassing of a group of people who could be counted upon to defend their friends? That is the way it appears to me.

 

[tumble]

You are quite right - things did seem to backfire if that was the intention. But we can never be really sure how people will react. Maybe someone very rich and powerful felt that his contemporaries would accept the situation without question. Doesn't it feel to anyone else like the amassing of a group of people who could be counted upon to defend their friends? That is the way it appears to me.

I agree. I also think that was the intention, to bad for them their friends were thinking individuals.

 

[redbetty]

I agree. I also think that was the intention, to bad for them their friends were thinking individuals.

I wish that Karr did do it. That would be easier to accept than the terrible alternative. Someone famous wrote (I can't remember who) that who we really are, our character, our capacity for good or evil, is always demonstrated in the choices we make in an instant. That is really rephrased quite badly, but you guys know what I mean. Once the first step toward cover up had occurred there was no turning back. Every lie got them in deeper and deeper. To me leaving the body behind so quickly, and heading off to Atlanta (or whereever) looks like people who couldn't take the guilt.
I feel sick.

 

[gaia]

I wish that Karr did do it. That would be easier to accept than the terrible alternative. Someone famous wrote (I can't remember who) that who we really are, our character, our capacity for good or evil, is always demonstrated in the choices we make in an instant. That is really rephrased quite badly, but you guys know what I mean. Once the first step toward cover up had occurred there was no turning back. Every lie got them in deeper and deeper. To me leaving the body behind so quickly, and heading off to Atlanta (or whereever) looks like people who couldn't take the guilt.
I feel sick.[/QUOTE

Yep, that desire to "get away" so fast after finding their dead child's body just didn't sit well with me! That incriminated them for me as much as anything else I've read or heard about these folks!:behindbar

 

[capps]

capps,

Not really. I try to hang loose with my various BDI theories since there's so much we don't know for sure. In my main theory John Karr, if he's telling the truth, would be the "fifth person" in the house that night.

IMO children were involved in this crime. From the evidence, the obvious coverup, and the behaviors of the Ramseys, the courts, and other principals, there appears to have been two or three perps, and one of them was an adult. The coverup protects the children.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

I hear ya ... there is too much unknown about this Karr guy to really make any judgment at this point. But I do think he is crazy as a fox,and there is more to him than meets the eye.

Thanks for your reply. It'll be interesting as time goes on.

 

[Linda7NJ]

T-Rex, that is an interesting theory. I had not thought of that scenerio, but it is possible.

No it isn't...her neck wasn't broken!

 

[Trino]

Just a lurking question. Would a pedophile attack a victim in her own home, or would they attempt to lure them to another location? Although rapists often do this, I can't think of another case where a pedophile broke into a house and attacked a child in her own house while her parents were home.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Just a lurking question. Would a pedophile attack a victim in her own home, or would they attempt to lure them to another location? Although rapists often do this, I can't think of another case where a pedophile broke into a house and attacked a child in her own house while her parents were home.

:clap: :clap: :clap: Me either! Not just a pedophile but a "kidnapping for ransom pedophile"

 

[Becba]

The asphyxiation causes involuntary sexual arousal, which enhances the pedophile's pleasure

Interesting. Do you mean a 6 year old actually is forced to arousal? Can a 6 year old girl be aroused at all?

Learning something new every day.

Pedophiles are said to beleive the child enjoys what they are doing even when it is causing the child great pain.
I do not think ea causes involuntary arousal though, not unless the idea of it apeals to the person. I am sure it did not appeal to a six yr old or most people because in my mind it would be like being choked. It would be terrorfying.

 

[Becba]

They had a "recovering pedophile" on CTV. I have seen him on talk shows before. He said when a pedophile has a child in his control he gets such a chemical high inhis brain that he has very little control. Calling her death an accident, to him, was saying Karr lost control and went further thanhe planned. Not an accident but a way to excuse the deepest hidden evils that he did.

 

[Linda7NJ]

They had a "recovering pedophile" on CTV. I have seen him on talk shows before. He said when a pedophile has a child in his control he gets such a chemical high inhis brain that he has very little control. Calling her death an accident, to him, was saying Karr lost control and went further thanhe planned. Not an accident but a way to excuse the deepest hidden evils that he did.

Goldenflame or something is his name.....they say that no one understands the pedophiles brain & thought processes better than another pedophile

 

[Peter Hamilton]

yeah,I've seen that guy Goldenflame on CNN many times,he's a creepy looking guy--Although he provides insight to understanding pedos since he's one himself,every time I see him I feel like I have to go take a shower--yuchh