Italy - Sailing yacht sank off Italian coast, 15 rescued, 7 missing, 19 August 2024

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SpanishInquisition said:
Even if they get some sort of legal victory having all the talk about the 45 degree catastrophic downflooding angle would scare off more business than if they were quiet about it.
Click to expand...

I have read SO many experienced opinions that those vents should not have been built within the 45 degree angle.

Eg:
Therefore, as I said, you can take it for what it’s worth, but it does not seem to me that having vents placed in a way that could result in significant down-flooding at 45-degrees angle of heel is a really good idea in a tall-masted sloop or cutter like Bayesian — particularly since major down-flooding very quickly turns into a vicious positive-feedback loop that often leads to a fatal loss of buoyant stability.

Bayesian Disaster Follow-Up

Phil Friedman: Sailor | Boatbuilder | Writer

​

 
Dotta said:
What can I say?

There are opinions that the yacht itself was somehow unsafe and caused the rapid sinking.

The Company fights for its good name/image.
It is their right.

Let the Court decide.
It is Court's and its experts' task.

I guess
this case will drag for maaaany years with maaaany twists and turns.

With all participants throwing mud at one another.

RIP to victims :(

Maybe their tragic deaths will warn others to follow Safety Rules more closely.

Yachts are not toys.
Oceans and Seas are not swimming pools.

Although,
pools can also turn deadly for some.
One always has to be cautious.

ETA
Oooops!
Do I sound like a stuck up record re Safety? :rolleyes:

Bear with me,
the school year has just started
and I'm in my teacher's mode again ;)

JMO
Click to expand...

where is the evidence that they didn't follow safety rules?
 
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LadyL said:
where is the evidence that they didn't follow safety rules?
Click to expand...

Well,
the result speaks for itself.

But it is JMO.

Besides,
It is for Investigators to determine all factors.
Bayesian had been sailing for many years till the tragedy.

And, by the way,
I was speaking in general terms.
Never enough safety measures, no?
It is good to repeat this all the time.

Better safe, than sorry
is my motto.

JMO
 
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SouthAussie said:
I have read SO many experienced opinions that those vents should not have been built within the 45 degree angle.

Eg:
Therefore, as I said, you can take it for what it’s worth, but it does not seem to me that having vents placed in a way that could result in significant down-flooding at 45-degrees angle of heel is a really good idea in a tall-masted sloop or cutter like Bayesian — particularly since major down-flooding very quickly turns into a vicious positive-feedback loop that often leads to a fatal loss of buoyant stability.

Bayesian Disaster Follow-Up

Phil Friedman: Sailor | Boatbuilder | Writer

​

Click to expand...


So one of the questions I have is whether or not the Bayesian was classed:

Classification of pleasure yachts is a completely different animal. All the major classification societies, including the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS), Lloyd’s Register (LR), Bureau Veritas (BV), RINA, Det Norske Veritas (DNV), etc., are more involved with commercial shipping than pleasure boats. Classification as a pleasure yacht or commercial charter yacht is normally the target here, with the charter classification being more intensive and expensive. Anything smaller than a megayacht is probably not a candidate for classification. ABS, for example, does not classify vessels smaller than 24 meters (79 feet).

Assuming it was, it had to go through a rigorous process of review that starts with the boat's design. However, from what I understand, classification is not like a set of rigid regulations that the government writes. It's more like a discussion between the agency and the boat builder where they go back-and-forth on various tradeoffs. It'll be interesting to see if the classification agency had anything to say about those vents.

One thing that does come to mind is that the Bayesian was one of several ships all built to similar standards. Except her sister ships were all double masted, only the Bayesian was built with the one giant mast. I wonder how much else was different between her and her siblings and if the classification agency was aware of the differences.
 
ch_13 said:
So one of the questions I have is whether or not the Bayesian was classed:

Classification of pleasure yachts is a completely different animal. All the major classification societies, including the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS), Lloyd’s Register (LR), Bureau Veritas (BV), RINA, Det Norske Veritas (DNV), etc., are more involved with commercial shipping than pleasure boats. Classification as a pleasure yacht or commercial charter yacht is normally the target here, with the charter classification being more intensive and expensive. Anything smaller than a megayacht is probably not a candidate for classification. ABS, for example, does not classify vessels smaller than 24 meters (79 feet).

Assuming it was, it had to go through a rigorous process of review that starts with the boat's design. However, from what I understand, classification is not like a set of rigid regulations that the government writes. It's more like a discussion between the agency and the boat builder where they go back-and-forth on various tradeoffs. It'll be interesting to see if the classification agency had anything to say about those vents.

One thing that does come to mind is that the Bayesian was one of several ships all built to similar standards. Except her sister ships were all double masted, only the Bayesian was built with the one giant mast. I wonder how much else was different between her and her siblings and if the classification agency was aware of the differences.
Click to expand...

The Perini Navi website has it classified as a sloop (single masted).

Seems that the ABS classified it. But, as you say, who knows how deep the classification process goes. Do they inspect the yacht? Do they look for subtle flaws (like the vent positions)?

The official brochure says this:

a.jpg

 
SouthAussie said:
The Perini Navi website has it classified as a sloop (single masted).

Seems that the ABS classified it. But, as you say, who knows how deep the classification process goes. Do they inspect the yacht? Do they look for subtle flaws (like the vent positions)?

The official brochure says this:

View attachment 532905

Click to expand...

As I understand it, classification is a whole process that starts even before the boat is built and continues through the design and construction phases and even after it is in service. Here's what ABS says:

How Does Classification Work?​

Implementing the published Rules, the classification process consists of:
  • A technical review of the design plans for a new vessel to verify compliance with the Rules
    • At the construction shipyard
    • At the relevant production facilities that provide key components
    • At sea trials
  • When these inspections are completed satisfactorily in compliance with the Rules, we issue a certificate of classification.
Once in service, the owner must submit the vessel to periodical onboard class surveys to verify that the ship continues to meet the relevant Rule requirements.

Classification Services

For more than 150 years, ABS has been at the forefront of maritime safety. That tradition continues today as we provide classification services to the global marine and offshore energy industries.
ww2.eagle.org ww2.eagle.org

Although it's called "classification" it's more akin to a certification process. It's confusing because people also use "class" as a synonym for type. So, Perini may refer to its class as a sloop, but ABS is using class to mean something very different.

Classification has also come up in the investigation into the Titan submersible that imploded last year while exploring the Titanic wreck. The owner's refusal to have that sub classed was a big point of contention with the rest of the deep-sea sub community who thought he was being reckless.

The subs that dive into this realm (there aren’t many) are tested and tested and tested. Every component is checked for flaws in a pressure chamber and checked again—and every step of this process is certified by an independent marine classification society. This assurance of safety is known as “classing” a sub.

www.vanityfair.com

The ‘Titan’ Submersible Disaster Was Years in the Making, New Details Reveal

To many in the tight-knit deep-sea exploration community, OceanGate’s submersible dives were reckless and often dangerous, writes best-selling author Susan Casey.
www.vanityfair.com www.vanityfair.com
 
ch_13 said:
As I understand it, classification is a whole process that starts even before the boat is built and continues through the design and construction phases and even after it is turned over to the buyer. Here's what ABS says:

How Does Classification Work?​

Implementing the published Rules, the classification process consists of:
  • A technical review of the design plans for a new vessel to verify compliance with the Rules
    • At the construction shipyard
    • At the relevant production facilities that provide key components
    • At sea trials
  • When these inspections are completed satisfactorily in compliance with the Rules, we issue a certificate of classification.
Once in service, the owner must submit the vessel to periodical onboard class surveys to verify that the ship continues to meet the relevant Rule requirements.

Classification Services

For more than 150 years, ABS has been at the forefront of maritime safety. That tradition continues today as we provide classification services to the global marine and offshore energy industries.
ww2.eagle.org ww2.eagle.org

Although it's called "classification" it's more akin to a certification process. It's confusing because people also use "class" as a synonym for type. So, Perini may refer to its class as a sloop, but ABS is using class to mean something very different.

Classification has also come up in the investigation into the Titan submersible that imploded last year while exploring the Titanic wreck. The owner's refusal to have that sub classed was a big point of contention with the rest of the deep-sea exploration community who thought he was being reckless.

www.vanityfair.com

The ‘Titan’ Submersible Disaster Was Years in the Making, New Details Reveal

To many in the tight-knit deep-sea exploration community, OceanGate’s submersible dives were reckless and often dangerous, writes best-selling author Susan Casey.
www.vanityfair.com www.vanityfair.com
The subs that dive into this realm (there aren’t many) are tested and tested and tested. Every component is checked for flaws in a pressure chamber and checked again—and every step of this process is certified by an independent marine classification society. This assurance of safety is known as “classing” a sub.
Click to expand...

I also found this ...
  • Large Yacht Code Certificate : Covers life-saving appliances, fire protection and means of escape, navigational and signalling equipment, intact and damaged stability, manning and crew accommodation.
  • Class Certificate : This mainly deals with the yacht’s hull, machinery, electrical equipment and outfitting.
  • Safety Radio Certificate : This is applicable if gross tonnage exceeds 300GT This concerns the radio communication and distress installations.
There is more at the link. Keeping in mind that the Bayesian tonnage is 473 tonnes, so some aspects are considered, some are not.



As well, A1 Yachting Service + MCA (which the Bayesian has) is described as covering .... the hull and equipment under the rules for vessels in commercial yacht service, which generally means charter use. ... the plus sign (a stand-in for the Maltese Cross) means the yacht and her machinery have been built and tested under ABS survey for unrestricted ocean service.

 
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1838025007575847095

"While the 'disgraceful' move is said to have angered Lynch's family,
IGS said that the lawyer who filed the suit, Tommaso Bertuccelli,
was not 'authorised' to do so and has been told to withdraw it immediately.

The company said:

'The Italian Sea Group… strongly denies the claims published in La Nazione regarding a legal action following the Bayesian tragedy.

Although TISG has given a generic mandate to the lawyers named in the article,
no legal representative of the company has examined, signed or authorised any writ of summons'."
 
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Dotta said:
Well,
the result speaks for itself.

But it is JMO.

Besides,
It is for Investigators to determine all factors.
Bayesian had been sailing for many years till the tragedy.

And, by the way,
I was speaking in general terms.
Never enough safety measures, no?
It is good to repeat this all the time.

Better safe, than sorry
is my motto.

JMO
Click to expand...

I disagree that the results speak for themselves. There's no way to prepare for something unexpected. They didn't know there was going to be a downspurt or whatever it's called. I believe they did everything they could, including climbing back onto the ship, where everything was chaos, to try and rescue the others. Maybe the investigation will reveal the crew is complicit. But we don't know either way right now.
 
Dotta said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1838025007575847095

"While the 'disgraceful' move is said to have angered Lynch's family,
IGS said that the lawyer who filed the suit, Tommaso Bertuccelli,
was not 'authorised' to do so and has been told to withdraw it immediately.

The company said:

'The Italian Sea Group… strongly denies the claims published in La Nazione regarding a legal action following the Bayesian tragedy.

Although TISG has given a generic mandate to the lawyers named in the article,
no legal representative of the company has examined, signed or authorised any writ of summons'."
Click to expand...

whhaattt ... very strange
 
Dotta said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1838025007575847095

"While the 'disgraceful' move is said to have angered Lynch's family,
IGS said that the lawyer who filed the suit, Tommaso Bertuccelli,
was not 'authorised' to do so and has been told to withdraw it immediately.

The company said:

'The Italian Sea Group… strongly denies the claims published in La Nazione regarding a legal action following the Bayesian tragedy.

Although TISG has given a generic mandate to the lawyers named in the article,
no legal representative of the company has examined, signed or authorised any writ of summons'."
Click to expand...

Those darn lawyers! Can't leave them alone for a moment without them initiating a 9-figure lawsuit against somebody all on their own.

--

I don't believe IGS for one moment. No way an action like that is filed without a lot of discussion about legal merits, precedents and fees. I suspect there was a ton of blowback (particularly from current and future customers) and the yachtmaker did an about-face, making their attorney the scapegoat.
 
ch_13 said:
Those darn lawyers! Can't leave them alone for a moment without them initiating a 9-figure lawsuit against somebody all on their own.

--

I don't believe IGS for one moment. No way an action like that is filed without a lot of discussion about legal merits, precedents and fees. I suspect there was a ton of blowback (particularly from current and future customers) and the yachtmaker did an about-face, making their attorney the scapegoat.
Click to expand...

Nothing will surprise me in this case.
The aftermath of this tragedy will be as brutal as the tragedy itself.
Not to mention all these rumours of Secret Services Intel kept in watertight safes,
now lying on the seabed :oops:

JMO
 
LadyL said:
poor lady
she's already lost everything and now to have to face this lawsuit is just ... wrong IMO
Click to expand...

I have all the sympathy for Angela Lynch. To lose your husband and daughter in such a terrible way is unfathomable.

However, from everything I've read HP's lawsuit (unlike the one filed by the yacht builders) does have merit. In all likelihood there was fraud involved in the sale of Mike Lynch's company. The CFO went to prison, the auditors were fined for not catching the fraud, and a civil suit determined that Lynch participated in the fraud. Lynch wasn't found guilty criminally, but not guilty is not the same as innocent.

Whether or not Lynch died, HP was always going to file this lawsuit in order to get their money back. And let's face it, even if she loses the suit, she'll still be far richer than you or I will ever be. As I said, I have enormous sympathy for her, but I'm not quite ready to extend it to her bank balance.
 
ch_13 said:
I have all the sympathy for Angela Lynch. To lose your husband and daughter in such a terrible way is unfathomable.

However, from everything I've read HP's lawsuit (unlike the one filed by the yacht builders) does have merit. In all likelihood there was fraud involved in the sale of Mike Lynch's company. The CFO went to prison, the auditors were fined for not catching the fraud, and a civil suit determined that Lynch participated in the fraud. Lynch wasn't found guilty criminally, but not guilty is not the same as innocent.

Whether or not Lynch died, HP was always going to file this lawsuit in order to get their money back. And let's face it, even if she loses the suit, she'll still be far richer than you or I will ever be. As I said, I have enormous sympathy for her, but I'm not quite ready to extend it to her bank balance.
Click to expand...

oh hold on
I was referring to the ship builder's lawsuit
I didn't realize there was another one
ok I should've read the post I quoted!
 
The story continues...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1838249315958931500

" 'He had been instructed to look into the case legally on behalf of TISG but that is it, for some reason he decided to file case which hadn't even been seen, agreed and signed by the board. He has now been sacked and is no longer working for us.'

The writ he filed at the court in Sicily has been withdrawn as it doesn't have the company's permission.

'It will not be released as it contains claims that have not been sanctioned by us and the case is still being investigated so it isn't even possible to file a case'."

To be continued...
 
Dotta said:
The story continues...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1838249315958931500

" 'He had been instructed to look into the case legally on behalf of TISG but that is it, for some reason he decided to file case which hadn't even been seen, agreed and signed by the board. He has now been sacked and is no longer working for us.'

The writ he filed at the court in Sicily has been withdrawn as it doesn't have the company's permission.

'It will not be released as it contains claims that have not been sanctioned by us and the case is still being investigated so it isn't even possible to file a case'."

To be continued...
Click to expand...

Makes me wonder if Giovanni Costantino (the CEO of Italian Sea Group and the one who has been publicly speaking about their 'unsinkable boat') gave permission for the lawsuit to be filed - but it had not received board approval.

I can't imagine a lawyer would file a lawsuit without his client knowing. But it sounds as if the lawyer has taken the fall.


The CEO of the firm that owns the boat’s manufacturer, The Italian Sea Group, claimed the yacht was “unsinkable.” Giovanni Costantino told Sky News sailing ships “are the safest in the most absolute sense.”

 
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