Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[SMK]

Wow, I think this is some serious sleuthing, and I think the point about the public nature of his "penance" is an especially important one. He had taken a major step in revealing the relationship to the church elders, and it had obvious consequences with Mimi. It is certainly reasonable to imagine that a young man might succumb to sexual temptation given a determined pursuer, but in this case it appears as though Travis had gone out of his way to publicly make the break with her.

I think you are spot on with that having driven her into a narcissistic rage. What's more, I reiterate my opinion that her deliberate campaign intended to thoroughly disgrace Travis' memory with virtually everyone, to literally annihilate his memory, is entirely consistent with that rage. We've seen it from the moment she walked into the courtroom, as virtually everything out of her mouth has been an attempt to justify what she did, not because of self-defense, in my opinion, but because she felt justified in destroying him after he had the nerve to cast her aside in favor of "more suitable" women (at least in her mind).

Thank you for this confirmation, and for your special insights. Well said.

Yes, we need only look at her accusation about him masturbating to images of male children: Is this to bolster self defense??? I think not. It is to make his family and friends despise him. To wipe his name out of the book of life.....

 

[SMK]

SS...

One problem is we are looking at pictures of pictures, not the best quality. Apparently with the actual photo JM had it shows more clearly the cap wasn't visible and Melendez answered accordingly. I still think they are laying on two different bedspreads all within 50 sec with (perhaps one with a cap one without) with the KY facing in two different directions. I'm hoping to see in rebuttal why this question was asked.

Looking at the bedspreads, are they the same or not? What do you think? Anyone?

I think they are different. Please see my post regarding TA's public break with JA as more confirmation about those pics being from a prior date. Thanks for all your fine sleuthing.

 

[molly333]

For starters, I didn't call you or anyone else any names. I did make a comment on what I thought of how you are looking at the issue of premeiditation.

Premditated murder or Murder I is simply a murder that someone had the intent/plan to murder another person. It does not have to be a specific weapon. It does not even have to be a specific person that they intend to kill.

In some aspects, yes, she is very organized. She knew exactly how much gas she needed to get from Pasdena, CA to Las Vegas, NV via Meas, AZ so that there would be no receipts placing her in AZ. She turned her phone off after leaving Pasadena so that her cell phone could not be tracked. She changed her look and did things to the car so it was not easily identified.

In other areas, she is not as organized. You would think that she would have taken the camera card with, since photos can be retieved. It also was not very intelligent to let him take your picture in his bed on the day you're going to murder him. She did a fairly good job cleaning the crime scene. If she had tried to clean up all the blood she would have been there for days, so she cleaned him and tried to remove as much evidence of her being there as she reasonably could.

The actual crime scene is what it is. It was a murder with a knife. They tend to be bloody and messy. There really isn't any way around that. For the most part, they are quieter than murder with a gun. The picture of him sitting in the shower is odd, but there really isn't any concrete evidence that the attack started with him sitting in the shower. She just as easily could have waited until he was stepping out of the shower drying his hair. His face partially covered, unsuspecting and unprepared to defend himself. You can not judge her orginaztion as a killer based off the appearance of the crime scene. She maybe underestimated his desire to live. She wouldn't be the first. She won't be the last.

She killed him. The plan to cover her tracks getting to and from his house is pretty clear. The result of her visit is an absolute fact. If she was just going there for a day of sex, why all the precautions to hide her trip there? The evidence strongly suggests she brought both the knife and the gun, so the option to use either one or both is at her fingertips. She used both in his murder. She shot him in the head and cut his throat. The fact that the cuttign of the throat would have been faster than the gunshot to the head, does not give her a free pass on premeditated murder.

Premditated murder or Murder I is simply a murder that someone had the intent/plan to murder another person. It does not have to be a specific weapon.

Did I ever say that murder one had to have a specific weapon? I never said that. You refuse to listen to what I am saying, so no point in repeating myself again. But, just don't misquote me, if you would, as though I don't know what murder one is.:banghead:

In some aspects, yes, she is very organized.....In other areas, she is not as organized.

I'm saying she should be consistent.


Profiling for Dummies

Assessing the perpetrator's psyche
One basic method of characterizing offenders from crime-scene evidence divides them into the following three categories:

Organized offenders: These criminals are more sophisticated in their approach, and their crimes show evidence of planning. These types tend to be of average or better intelligence, employed, and in active social relationships such as with spouses and families. Even though they're driven by their fantasies, they maintain enough control to avoid being impulsive. They prepare and even rehearse. They tend to target specific victims or types of victims and use control measures such as restraints to maintain victim compliance. They bring the tools they need to gain access to and control of the victim and avoid leaving behind evidence. As killers, they generally hide or dispose of the body and are likely to have a dumpsite already selected.

Disorganized offenders: These criminals usually live alone or with a relative, possess lower-than-average intelligence, are unemployed or work at menial jobs, and often have mental illnesses. They act impulsively, or as if they have little control over their fantasy-driven needs. They rarely use ruses to gain the victim's confidence, but rather attack with sudden violence, overwhelming the victim. The crime scene often is messy and chaotic. This type of offender doesn't plan ahead or bring tools along, but rather uses whatever is handy. As killers, they typically leave the body at the scene and exert little effort to avoid leaving behind evidence. Some have sexual contact with the victim after killing him or her.


Mixed offenders: Some offenders leave behind mixed messages at crime scenes. They show evidence of planning and a sophisticated MO, but the assault itself may be frenzied or messy, which may indicate some control over deep-seated and violent fantasies.


http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/forensics-profiling-the-perpetrator.html


IMO

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

BBM
Only the one I did. LOL

http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/g...=3&o=11&_suid=1364075906921047590710712553596

Thanks. I can see how that diagram could fit, but it puzzles me why there is no blood staining from below the upper chest area. I would think the would have had lots of blood down his torso. If he was on his back, I would expect the same too. Why is that one area clear. I wonder if something was lying on the carpet keeping blood off of it.

 

[Sleuth5]

Thank you for this confirmation, and for your special insights. Well said.

Yes, we need only look at her accusation about him masturbating to images of male children: Is this to bolster self defense??? I think not. It is to make his family and friends despise him. To wipe his name out of the book of life.....

I'm quite convinced of that. Having dealt with several destructive narcissists in my own life, I have no problem imagining the lengths to which they will go to achieve "satisfaction" when they believe themselves wronged. There truly are no limits. Nor should we imagine that a conviction will stop her destructive rant. She will literally consume herself in order to achieve her ends -- one of the hallmarks of this kind of behavior being an inability to recognize the obviously self-destructive consequences of this kind of revenge. :moo:

 

[gitana1]

Just wanted to make a few points backing BW0000's theory about the pics of 6/4/08: * please read, BW0000 & Sleuth5:

1. We all know Travis was human and Travis was weak: Which is why he continued to engage in the kinky sex with JA, long after he knew she was really not someone he wanted to be involved with.

2. And yet, as BW0000 points out, the email of May 26 had an air of finality about it. We know that it's said that stalkers often escalate to rage and violence when a final break is made - even though, ironically, you are indeed supposed to break with them.

3. Travis took Jodi's name off the Cancun trip, and replaced it with Mimi's. Mimi had said they should go only as friends due to Travis' admited status of being "temple unworthy".

4. We know such a status came from having come clean to Church elders. This is not a light matter: He has allowed those he serves and respects to know of his mistake with Jodi, and he is willing to publicly be on probation. Think about it: He was scared. He was finished. What else could the elders have told this much-cherished and much-honored youth but to "break with her completely." ???

4a. We see in his blog post of May 18 - 2 1/2 weeks before his murder - that he is longing for a wife, longing to be a good Mormon.

5. Was Travis SO weak that on June 4, given all of the above, he would indulge in lying around, using KY, posing for Calvin Klein like sultry shower pics, and taking graphic pics of a woman who had cost him Lisa, Mimi, and his standing in the church???? Think about it. Travis was done. Jodi knew this. Ergo, she had murder in her heart, and on her mind. He would sense this.

6. I believe she was never invited in and ambushed him. As per my other posts, I believe the shower pics and the sex pics were from a much earlier date.

Travis didn't lose Mimi because of jodi. She was just never that into him. And he had no idea about the dirt jodi had on him, IMO, like the taped phone sex so he didn't realize his standing in the church had been threatened, likely.

Yes, it happens. I'm not saying it's impossible. But ask the ER nurses how many head gunshot victims made it to the ER on their feet vs those who never made it or were out.

It would lower the angle compared to holding your arm with elbow bent inward. Try again.


Likely, really? Based on what, other than your presumption that she shot him at the shower?

This is just additional conjecture to make the gunfirst theory fit.

Well, I'm not "presuming" that she shot him in the shower. I am deducting that she did. Huge difference! I showed the reasons why I feel that theory is logical, in multiple posts, as did other posters who are more intelligent than I am.

If you are standing two feet away from someone who is sitting, the trajectory of a gun shot would be straighter than if you were standing over them with elbow bent, or just standing over them with arm outstretched. In fact, another poster tried to say that the trajectory in that position would be almost flat, which also defies physics, IMHO, but it shows that there is an awareness that the farther you are away from an object horizontally, the more flat the trajectory from you to that object will be.

I;m not sure what you mean by lowering the angle but if you're saying that a person standing two feet away pointing a gun with outstretched hands would create a more downward angle than someone standing above them with elbow cocked, I would seriously disagree. Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other about positioning?

Yes, my theory about her positioning while shooting is conjecture. So is everyone else's because there has been zero testimony about where she was sitting, standing or the angle of her arms, etc., except that the gun itself was at least two feet away from Travis, when the bullet entered his face.

How does anyone know exactly where she was standing in relation to him and what angle her arm or hand was in when she pulled the trigger?

My conjecture is based on evidence that I feel is pretty overwhelming to suggest he was shot first, in the shower.

I supposed that she was raising her shoulder and cocking her elbow because that would fit the trajectory and because she might have done that so he wouldn't easily see what she was doing, as opposed to pointing a gun right at his face, eye level.

But IMO, she could have been standing two feet away or more, horizontally, without cocking her elbow or raising her shoulder, and the bullet would still go downward, if he was sitting and could have followed the very path it did. Bullet trajectories are influenced by bone and cartilage, etc. They don't go in straight lines, generally, from what I have read and heard. :twocents:

ETA: jodi has testified about where she was standing when "the gun went off", but I discounted that!

 

[BW0000]

Do you think he could have taken that back view pic of her 'you know' at 1:42:00 and then be lying in bed for the 1:42:50 pic? Pretty relaxed for just having jumped into bed.

Hi geevee

I cannot say for sure but maybe at an earlier time TA did take this shot. She seems to be laying on one of his bedspreads as seen in #18 of hln180. I wish this photo was clearer but I still can recognize a different pattern. Rather than focus on the KY I just want people to see for themselves his bedspread collection and compare what he is laying and what she is laying on. I too need confirmation.

Another poster elsewhere did research on what color hair she had at on various dates. I seem to recall it wasn't blond in Mar-April (just from memory)

 

[teledude]

Just wanted to make a few points backing BW0000's theory about the pics of 6/4/08: * please read, BW0000 & Sleuth5:

1. We all know Travis was human and Travis was weak: Which is why he continued to engage in the kinky sex with JA, long after he knew she was really not someone he wanted to be involved with.

2. And yet, as BW0000 points out, the email of May 26 had an air of finality about it. We know that it's said that stalkers often escalate to rage and violence when a final break is made - even though, ironically, you are indeed supposed to break with them.

3. Travis took Jodi's name off the Cancun trip, and replaced it with Mimi's. Mimi had said they should go only as friends due to Travis' admited status of being "temple unworthy".

4. We know such a status came from having come clean to Church elders. This is not a light matter: He has allowed those he serves and respects to know of his mistake with Jodi, and he is willing to publicly be on probation. Think about it: He was scared. He was finished. What else could the elders have told this much-cherished and much-honored youth but to "break with her completely." ???

4a. We see in his blog post of May 18 - 2 1/2 weeks before his murder - that he is longing for a wife, longing to be a good Mormon.

5. Was Travis SO weak that on June 4, given all of the above, he would indulge in lying around, using KY, posing for Calvin Klein like sultry shower pics, and taking graphic pics of a woman who had cost him Lisa, Mimi, and his standing in the church???? Think about it. Travis was done. Jodi knew this. Ergo, she had murder in her heart, and on her mind. He would sense this.

6. I believe she was never invited in and ambushed him. As per my other posts, I believe the shower pics and the sex pics were from a much earlier date.

Well, I think the pics are from that day.

But I've had some experience with emotionally manipulative women. Us 'nice guys' are especially vulnerable.

She may have shown up crying, whatever, she knew how to push his buttons.

remember, Travis was really a nice guy who probably didn't want to hurt her even if he'd become exasperated with her drama. It may have been very hard for him to turn her away when she was there in person. He's wasn't a cruel person.

I think she was able to worm her way back in one more time.

The pics are from the day he died. The forensic specialist testified to that and also he was the one who put those bright time stamps on them so they could be read in court.

if I am recalling the testimony correctly.

 

[SMK]

I'm quite convinced of that. Having dealt with several destructive narcissists in my own life, I have no problem imagining the lengths to which they will go to achieve "satisfaction" when they believe themselves wronged. There truly are no limits. Nor should we imagine that a conviction will stop her destructive rant. She will literally consume herself in order to achieve her ends -- one of the hallmarks of this kind of behavior being an inability to recognize the obviously self-destructive consequences of this kind of revenge. :moo:

Yes. Well said, and amen to it.

 

[SMK]

Well, I think the pics are from that day.

But I've had some experience with emotionally manipulative women. Us 'nice guys' are especially vulnerable.

She may have shown up crying, whatever, she knew how to push his buttons.

remember, Travis was really a nice guy who probably didn't want to hurt her even if he'd become exasperated with her drama. It may have been very hard for him to turn her away when she was there in person. He's wasn't a cruel person.

I think she was able to worm her way back in one more time.

The pics are from the day he died. The forensic specialist testified to that and also he was the one who put those bright time stamps on them so they could be read in court.

if I am recalling the testimony correctly.

Possibly, but I am still not sure of it, given the ennumerated reasons in my post. Possibly, but i has me doubts.......I has me doubts.... Recall, he had broken with her publicly. He was way beyond exsasperated.

 

[Captain86]

I've always wondered how she managed that. I've tried to figure out how does she step out of all that blood in the hallway and leave no tracks. I tried to think how I would do it, and it's not easy. She has socks on in the last picture so she had to put a clean shoe on one foot, step over, put clean shoe on other foot before you put it down.

well, you get the picture lol. No bloody footprints anywhere on the rug in the bedroom.

Maybe someone carried her out of there? Or handed her the shoes? Little things like that bother me.

IMO

Just as a guess. We know she cleaned him off after he was in the shower, and she had to clean herself off at least some. She could have put her clothes in the tub while she cleaned him and her up. Then wrapped everything in the towel she used to dry off (use the cup to rinse anything left in the tub from her clothes) . Steps through the closet. There isn't nearly as much blood in front of the shower as there is in the hallway. I don't know how she could have gotten down the hallway without tracking blood out of the bathroom, but carefully stepping around in front of the shower could get her to the clean closet with clean feet. She puts everything that is not hers in the washer, at least one of the towels had her blood on it from her hand wound, I think.

 

[molly333]

According to this book,
Introduction to Forensic Psychology: Research and Application,

a crime can be mixed. In other words, "a crime may have begun as a carefully planned one, but quickly deteriorated into a disorganized crime when things when things failed to go as originally planned and unanticipated strong emotions set in." http://books.google.com/books?id=Ea...zgK#v=onepage&q=disorganized criminal&f=false


I think most people understand that just because a crime didn't go as planned - which few do- doesn't mean premeditation is cancelled out.

'WHEN THINGS FAILED TO GO AS ORIGINALLY PLANNED.'

Isn't that what the gunfirst people have been saying ALL ALONG? She planned to kill him with a gun and the gun jammed. So she went to a knife which created a messier crime scene because even though he was disabled by the gun wound, she still had trouble overpowering him.

I am saying that as an organized offender she would not have chosen a knife as her weapon of choice, nor would she have stolen a gun only to end up using a knife AS HER WEAPON OF CHOICE.

IMO

 

[wasnt_me]

@wasnt_me:

So supposing this was a posing session and not a real shower:

TA was trying to extricate himself from JA (he had told Mimi he was not "temple worthy" which showed he must have discussed this with church elders and was "on probation" (?) - so why would he allow pictures which could be used to blackmail him at this point? (altho I guess it was his camera)

Just trying to figure out the logic of it all....

He apparently allowed the sex on the bed pictures beforehand, so for me, it's not a stretch that he'd allow the shower pictures. Back in May, before the text message blow up, weren't they on a sex tape talking about taking sexy pictures and doing a sex video?

I think she lured him into that position by offering to come through AZ on her way to Ryan and take these pictures and make this sex video. In my view, I think she was wearing him down to let her come in all those phone calls along the trip because it was her plan to lure him into a tied up sex act and kill him. He wouldn't be tied up when she got there, so she went to plan B, the shower.

Changing plans seems apparent in that the "shower" took place hours after the apparent sex. If they even had sex. Maybe she just coaxed him to take pictures. He's already said that she was hard to resist, so I can see her talking him into stuff. So once her plans go to plan B--even if plan B was constructed on the fly--we begin to see how she can make mistakes.

 

[teledude]

Just imagine:

he's told Jodi it's over for good. and I really mean it! I hate you!

Then she shows up - he's like "oh crap, not again"

but she's crying- she can't go on living

it's time for suicide if I can't just talk to you for a couple minutes, please!

He knows it's a mistake. But she's here and sounds really upset.

and at heart he is a compassionate man (not like Dr. Quack)

he thinks, I'll just calm her down and send her on her way.

But that's all these manipulators need.

She continues to play on his emotions. His desires. She knows how to manipulate him.

She knows his every weakness at this point. She's contrite, apologetic, remorseful. She's so sorry she has caused any trouble in his life.

Can't she make it up to him?

I have no idea how the conversation went, but let's just say I've been there with manipulative women who use love and sex as tools to advance their ulterior motives.

Eve and the snake in the garden had nothing on Jodi.

 

[geevee]

Thanks. I can see how that diagram could fit, but it puzzles me why there is no blood staining from below the upper chest area. I would think the would have had lots of blood down his torso. If he was on his back, I would expect the same too. Why is that one area clear. I wonder if something was lying on the carpet keeping blood off of it.

I have the same thoughts, he should be covered in blood by this time front and back (whether he landed on his stomach or his back), of course, on the west wall where he slid across to the carpet could have rubbed off quite a bit of blood. But it does look odd.

 

[teledude]

'WHEN THINGS FAILED TO GO AS ORIGINALLY PLANNED.'

Isn't that what the gunfirst people have been saying ALL ALONG? She planned to kill him with a gun and the gun jammed. So she went to a knife which created a messier crime scene because even though he was disabled by the gun wound, she still had trouble overpowering him.

I am saying that as an organized offender she would not have chosen a knife as her weapon of choice, nor would she have stolen a gun only to end up using a knife AS HER WEAPON OF CHOICE.

IMO

YES YES YES

Thanks for that great analysis

 

[wasnt_me]

'WHEN THINGS FAILED TO GO AS ORIGINALLY PLANNED.'

Isn't that what the gunfirst people have been saying ALL ALONG? She planned to kill him with a gun and the gun jammed. So she went to a knife which created a messier crime scene because even though he was disabled by the gun wound, she still had trouble overpowering him.

I am saying that as an organized offender she would not have chosen a knife as her weapon of choice, nor would she have stolen a gun only to end up using a knife AS HER WEAPON OF CHOICE.

IMO

The problem is you can't say an organized offender wouldn't choose this. With millions of offenders in the world and over the years, you can't make the statement that not a one would choose a knife over a gun. You're talking in absolutes, but if just one person has ever done it, then your theory is wrong and it means that Jodi could also have chosen it, too.

I don't know what hand she held the gun with but was there gun powder residue on her palm print that was on the wall? If her left hand was the palm print and if she used that hand to wield a gun and there was no gunpowder residue in that bloody print, then she might not have shot the gun until he'd been dragged back to the bathroom, as the empty shell indicates.

 

[gitana1]

Possibly, but I am still not sure of it, given the ennumerated reasons in my post. Possibly, but i has me doubts.......I has me doubts.... Recall, he had broken with her publicly. He was way beyond exsasperated.

But he publicly split from her months before that and deniedher publicly at the Christmas party yet he still continued to have contact and have sex with her.

These sociopath/psychopaths can be quite convincing and they know how to chose their targets well. Mormon guys in a very Mormon state would be more likely than average to be inexperienced sexually and to not have many dealings with someone like jodi. I think they would likely tend to be a bit more naive than the average American guy.

Travis, with his history of neglected, drug addicted parents who he was taken from at age 8, may have been the best kind of fodder for a manipulator like jodi. It may have been very hard for him not to give second and third and fourth chances. Coupled with his ability to have sex with her, something likely not that easy to do with the kind of girls he associated with, I can easily see why he would have engaged one more time with her, on June 4th, 2008.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

According to this book,
Introduction to Forensic Psychology: Research and Application,

a crime can be mixed. In other words, "a crime may have begun as a carefully planned one, but quickly deteriorated into a disorganized crime when things when things failed to go as originally planned and unanticipated strong emotions set in." http://books.google.com/books?id=Ea...zgK#v=onepage&q=disorganized criminal&f=false


I think most people understand that just because a crime didn't go as planned - which few do- doesn't mean premeditation is cancelled out.

Read the next paragraph about the difficulty in classifying a scene. Trying to pigeonhole a scene into a category is putting the cart before the horse. jmo.

 

[geevee]

Hi geevee

I cannot say for sure but maybe at an earlier time TA did take this shot. She seems to be laying on one of his bedspreads as seen in #18 of hln180. I wish this photo was clearer but I still can recognize a different pattern. Rather than focus on the KY I just want people to see for themselves his bedspread collection and compare what he is laying and what she is laying on. I too need confirmation.

Another poster elsewhere did research on what color hair she had at on various dates. I seem to recall it wasn't blond in Mar-April (just from memory)

Let me upload those pics to my PB album so we can look at the bedding more closely, I'll have to black out the naughty parts so I don't run afoul of PB's user agreement but that won't take me too long.

Okay, uploaded:

http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/g...?page=1&_suid=1364079520390014590579261406533