Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[LambChop]

Tell me again what the dura mater is. Is this another magic bullet?

The bullet did not enter the brain.

Read the autopsy report.

IMO

I did. Try looking at the gunshot wound instead of the scalp wound which is listed under the nervous system.

 

[LambChop]

I believe that 'little foot' is a pool of blood on top of a white button on the duvet cover, what looks like light through the toes is light reflecting on the button. If you see where his shoulder is in that photo, it's impossible for his foot to be seen by the camera angle. Blood is pooling from his neck wound onto the duvet cover as she is rolling him on to it, check the angle of his head, shoulder and arm and you'll see they all line up with her rolling him to his right onto that cover. moo

No. It is his foot and has been identified as such in court. jmo

 

[molly333]

No. You have just misread this. Look under gunshot wound to the head. It is quite clear. The part you have listed is under Nervous System and lists the stabbing injuries to his skull which tells us the injury did not penetrate the skull and the cerebral area. The injuries he had to his head did not penetrate the dura mater in that area. If you read the gunshot section it is very clear the bullet enter the brain and the doctor report "reenter" the facial area.

You need to reread the report to get it accurate. jmo

I didn't misread it. I quoted it. It is under NERVOUS SYSTEM. The brain is part of the nervous system.

As opposed to CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM, RESPIRATORY SYSTEM, DIGESTIVE SYSTEM.

It is a part of the general description of the various systems of the body. And, under NERVOUS SYSTEM the report states the dura mater is intact. It also says that slides of the brain show no trauma. That means no bullet entered the brain itself.

Pip is right.

IMO

 

[pip]

I wonder if Dr. Horn is remembering another one of the 6000+ autopsies he has performed and not TA's when he gives his 2nd version on the stand..:facepalm:

You can't take slices of liquified brain tissue... was it soft or liquified? He admits it was soft, and yes, he took slices.
He says he can't see the bullet tract through the brain, 'but it had to pass thru the frontal lobe'.. yet the dura and all structures are intact without any signs of trauma or injury. Brain...normal in his written autopsy report.

 

[LambChop]

I didn't misread it. I quoted it. It is under NERVOUS SYSTEM. The brain is part of the nervous system.

As opposed to CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM, RESPIRATORY SYSTEM, DIGESTIVE SYSTEM.

It is a part of the general description of the various systems of the body. And, under NERVOUS SYSTEM the report states the dura mater is intact. It also says that slides of the brain show no trauma. That means no bullet entered the brain itself.

Pip is right.

IMO

Did you read the gunshot portion? In the nervous system report he is discussing the scalp wounds. It was reported that one was so deep she took a chunk out of his skull and the doctor is reporting on the cerebral area not the frontal lobe. That is covered under the gunshot portion. They are two different areas of the brain where the injuries occurred. Do you not think that defense would have had an issue with this under cross? Did we hear JW challenge him on this, yes, we did. And he set her straight and said his reports states that the bullet did enter the skull (it's under gunshot) and reentered into the facial area.

It's reported there. In black and white and very understandable. But I do not see any quotes from the gunshot portion of reported here.....you just have to read it. jmo

 

[LambChop]

I wonder if Dr. Horn is remembering another one of the 6000+ autopsies he has performed and not TA's when he gives his 2nd version on the stand..:facepalm:

You can't take slices of liquified brain tissue... was it soft or liquified? He admits it was soft, and yes, he took slices.
He says he can't see the bullet tract through the brain, 'but it had to pass thru the frontal lobe'.. yet the dura and all structures are intact without any signs of trauma or injury. Brain...normal in his written autopsy report.

Well, I'm sure he has but he is so much better at writing them then we are at reading them for sure. jmo

 

[molly333]

I wonder if Dr. Horn is remembering another one of the 6000+ autopsies he has performed and not TA's when he gives his 2nd version on the stand..:facepalm:

You can't take slices of liquified brain tissue... was it soft or liquified? He admits it was soft, and yes, he took slices.
He says he can't see the bullet tract through the brain, 'but it had to pass thru the frontal lobe'.. yet the dura and all structures are intact without any signs of trauma or injury. Brain...normal in his written autopsy report.

He clearly played fast and loose with his testimony on the stand, imo. He was talking about shock waves to the brain. You would get a shock wave to the brain by any blow to the head. But, the question is...why? Why did the State change their position [of gun first] from the probable cause hearing? And, when did the Defense find out they had changed their position? There seems to be an ongoing appeal to the higher court about this--it could put the death penalty in jeopardy.

We need minorIV or one of the atty's to explain this to us.

IMO

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

No. My point is you cannot prove premeditation with the knife first. And, premeditation has not been proven yet in that regard.

Again, you keep saying that, but you still haven't explained why all the planning that's been proven should be thrown out if a knife was used first. She turned off her phone after Pasadena. Is that only a sign of premeditation if she's going to use a gun? OF COURSE NOT!

And even if you threw out all of that planning evidence, the fact of the 29 stab wounds would still prove premeditation. Cutting someone's throat from ear to ear can only be premeditated. Yet according to you all those stabs can only prove self-defense.

Knife first is likely to get her a lessor included, maybe even self defense.

I guarantee nobody in the jury is thinking this.

 

[Angelina Frost]

Again, you keep saying that, but you still haven't explained why all the planning that's been proven should be thrown out if a knife was used first. She turned off her phone after Pasadena. Is that only a sign of premeditation if she's going to use a gun? OF COURSE NOT!

And even if you threw out all of that planning evidence, the fact of the 29 stab wounds would still prove premeditation. Cutting someone's throat from ear to ear can only be premeditated. Yet according to you all those stabs can only prove self-defense.

I guarantee nobody in the jury is thinking this.

ITA.

Self-defense cannot explain away the stab wounds to the back, as he is moving away from her. He is clearly not a threat at that point. Trying to place the neck wound under the umbrella under self defense is even more absurd.

Not a chance 18 people will be so rigid and linear in their thinking that they will overlook this.

 

[LambChop]

From Dr. Horn's autopsy:

Gunshot: "Perforation of inferior skull base, anterior fossa and facial skeleton." And further: "1/8 inch circular wound....the wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull.....projectile re-enters the facial skeleton near the midline..."

The damages done by the stabbing to the head are listed under the Nervous System heading and are unrelated to the gunshot wound because it's a different weapon and the wounds are in the cerebral area not the frontal lobe.

I can understand that.

 

[pip]

He clearly played fast and loose with his testimony on the stand, imo. He was talking about shock waves to the brain. You would get a shock wave to the brain by any blow to the head. But, the question is...why? Why did the State change their position [of gun first] from the probable cause hearing? And, when did the Defense find out they had changed their position? There seems to be an ongoing appeal to the higher court about this--it could put the death penalty in jeopardy.

We need minorIV or one of the atty's to explain this to us.

IMO

I am sure it shocked and stunned his brain and caused some disorientation, but it did not directly hit his brain, nor did it even penetrate the dura.
I am baffled too as to why and when the state changed their position. I wonder if the defense switched from knife first to gun first in response?
They both seem to be choosing the wrong first weapon for bolstering their case. This issue may have been the catalyst. I can see how JM wants to steer clear of an appeal down the road by steering clear of the gun first scenario.. but there is still a missing piece to the puzzle. It seems to tie directly to the ME and his changing autopsy analysis. I do believe he was stating the GSW was first, as Det. Flores said, and then he switched to knife first...although he wouldn't commit to an opinion of sequence of course, but you can clearly pick up from his testimony that he keeps inserting suggestions that lead back to knife first. Why the change? That is the million dollar question here. And why does Flores fall on the sword and go along with it? He obviously would not want to stay with the gun first scenario if the team has switched to the knife first scenario, so that part I get.. but what prompted the change in Dr. Horn's autopsy report?

 

[molly333]

Did you read the gunshot portion? In the nervous system report he is discussing the scalp wounds. It was reported that one was so deep she took a chunk out of his skull and the doctor is reporting on the cerebral area not the frontal lobe. That is covered under the gunshot portion. They are two different areas of the brain where the injuries occurred. Do you not think that defense would have had an issue with this under cross? Did we hear JW challenge him on this, yes, we did. And he set her straight and said his reports states that the bullet did enter the skull (it's under gunshot) and reentered into the facial area.

It's reported there. In black and white and very understandable. But I do not see any quotes from the gunshot portion of reported here.....you just have to read it. jmo

I did read the gunshot trajectory. It does not mention the frontal lobes. no, no, no NERVOUS SYSTEM does not have anything to do with the scalp. It is about the brain itself. The brain itself was intact with no trauma. The stabs to the scalp did not even penetrate the skull.

I heard the defense cross of him and it made little sense to me at the time. I couldn't figure out why the ME was talking in such vague, general, terms and also, seeming to contradict his own report according to the defense. Now I understand.


Under the gunshot wound track section:

"The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and tranverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury...


He says it again under the description of the wound track--the brain was not injured.

"without...apparent cerebral injury.."


cerebral definition
Adjective

1. Of or relating to the brain or cerebrum.

 

[pip]

From Dr. Horn's autopsy:

Gunshot: "Perforation of inferior skull base, anterior fossa and facial skeleton." And further: "1/8 inch circular wound....the wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull.....projectile re-enters the facial skeleton near the midline..."

The damages done by the stabbing to the head are listed under the Nervous System heading and are unrelated to the gunshot wound because it's a different weapon and the wounds are in the cerebral area not the frontal lobe.

I can understand that.

You are wrong. The GSW is described under the NERVOUS SYSTEM portion of the autopsy report as well.

 

[geevee]

No. It is his foot and has been identified as such in court. jmo

I believe JM pointed at it and said 'That looks like a foot, doesn't it?" And yes, it does look like a foot, but it is not a foot. It is blood on a white button. Look at the pic, it is under his shoulder, if it had been at the end of his body (like a foot would be) you'd never see it because of his arm.

http://s1287.beta.photobucket.com/u...t=3&o=2&_suid=1363539180687025016765880183156

 

[LambChop]

I believe JM pointed at it and said 'That looks like a foot, doesn't it?" And yes, it does look like a foot, but it is not a foot. It is blood on a white button. Look at the pic, it is under his shoulder, if it had been at the end of his body (like a foot would be) you'd never see it because of his arm.

http://s1287.beta.photobucket.com/u...t=3&o=2&_suid=1363539180687025016765880183156

A fellow poster did the very same picture with her laying on the floor with her foot out in the picture. Her husband's foot is next to the came in the same position as this picture. Her foot looks very far away and it looks exactly like the picture. To the camera the object is very far away and not close to the lens. It has already been proven it is his foot. I do not know what else will convince you unless the poster who posted her picture puts it up for you. jmo

 

[pip]

Could it be as simple as that when Dr. Horn found out that the shell casing was found on top of blood that he changes his mind? Perhaps he feared to take the chance of being made to look like he was wrong because of this? Ego? So he switches to the 'he couldn't have been shot first, but I won't speculate and commit to an actual sequence' position. So the state has to flip their entire case around because the ME has changed his analysis to protect himself from potential professional embarrassment? It is pretty clear to me he started out gunshot wound first that didn't disable TA and Flores was telling the truth, but went along with it in the end.

 

[geevee]

A fellow poster did the very same picture with her laying on the floor with her foot out in the picture. Her husband's foot is next to the came in the same position as this picture. Her foot looks very far away and it looks exactly like the picture. To the camera the object is very far away and not close to the lens. It has already been proven it is his foot. I do not know what else will convince you unless the poster who posted her picture puts it up for you. jmo

I saw that photo, and in it, her head and shoulder are not blocking the foot, as Travis' are. And also, he is not in the act of rolling her to the right, as JA is.

 

[LambChop]

I saw that photo, and in it, her head and shoulder are not blocking the foot, as Travis' are. And also, he is not in the act of rolling her to the right, as JA is.

Believe what you want. According to statements in court it's his foot or it's blood shaped like a foot. Could be either.

 

[molly333]

Again, you keep saying that, but you still haven't explained why all the planning that's been proven should be thrown out if a knife was used first. She turned off her phone after Pasadena. Is that only a sign of premeditation if she's going to use a gun? OF COURSE NOT!

And even if you threw out all of that planning evidence, the fact of the 29 stab wounds would still prove premeditation. Cutting someone's throat from ear to ear can only be premeditated. Yet according to you all those stabs can only prove self-defense.



I guarantee nobody in the jury is thinking this.

All the planning works great for me IF she gets there and shoots him first while he is sitting in the shower. Then I can get to murder one easy. And, as you know, that is what I think happened.

But, if you take gun first away from me then, sure, she seems to be sneaking through Arizona, but she was always sneaking around to see Travis, making sure the roommates were asleep late at night before going over there, etc. So it weighs it more in the direction of that type of sneaking which was indigenous to the relationship, rather than sneaking for premeditated murder. I say it weighs it more in that direction because I cannot see her stealing a gun and then stabbing him. So it calls the whole line of circumstantial reasoning into question for me. Stabbing seems more like a spur of the moment thing, especially if you've gone to all the trouble to steal a gun.

I'm just pointing out a weakness in the State's case at the moment. Things could change.

IMO

 

[LambChop]

Could it be as simple as that when Dr. Horn found out that the shell casing was found on top of blood that he changes his mind? Perhaps he feared to take the chance of being made to look like he was wrong because of this? Ego? So he switches to the 'he couldn't have been shot first, but I won't speculate and commit to an actual sequence' position. So the state has to flip their entire case around because the ME has changed his analysis to protect himself from potential professional embarrassment? It is pretty clear to me he started out gunshot wound first that didn't disable TA and Flores was telling the truth, but went along with it in the end.

Obviously defense read the same report as we all did and challenged the doctor and backed off when he presented his testimony in court. In any event, it stands as evidence in court and JM is not focused on the sequence as the much bigger issue is the stabbing. jmo