Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[molly333]

Could it be as simple as that when Dr. Horn found out that the shell casing was found on top of blood that he changes his mind? Perhaps he feared to take the chance of being made to look like he was wrong because of this? Ego? So he switches to the 'he couldn't have been shot first, but I won't speculate and commit to an actual sequence' position. So the state has to flip their entire case around because the ME has changed his analysis to protect himself from potential professional embarrassment? It is pretty clear to me he started out gunshot wound first that didn't disable TA and Flores was telling the truth, but went along with it in the end.

I find it hard to believe he would be influenced by the shell casing. There was a huge fight in that bathroom, a body drug through it, the place was flooded with water, and a clean up--do I really think that shell casing ended up where it started out and all of this mayhem danced around the casing leaving it where it originally landed? No. lol

And, I doubt he would, either.

It's got to be something else. Maybe some legal thing.

IMO

 

[molly333]

Obviously defense read the same report as we all did and challenged the doctor and backed off when he presented his testimony in court. In any event, it stands as evidence in court and JM is not focused on the sequence as the much bigger issue is the stabbing. jmo

I don't remember the Defense backing off. I mean what could they do? Call him a liar? They questioned him vigorously about it and about Det Flores [none of which I understood at the time] and they have an on going appeal in process about it, as far as I can tell.

IMO

 

[pip]

Obviously defense read the same report as we all did and challenged the doctor and backed off when he presented his testimony in court. In any event, it stands as evidence in court and JM is not focused on the sequence as the much bigger issue is the stabbing. jmo

Well one thing I know is that the prosecution won't challenge the ME's autopsy analysis. That is why they changed from gun to knife. They are in a far better position to be aligned with the ME's opinion than to oppose it. People believe doctors without question. The jury consists of people.
It is ridiculous to think that the state would have all this circumstantial evidence that she premeditated the killing with a stolen gun from her Grandpa and then go with the knife first scenario, unless there was a cog thrown in their wheels. ie: Dr. Horn's changing autopsy report.
I keep going back and forth as to whether or not the sequence will ultimately change anything for the jurors or not. I can see both sides of that coin.

 

[RealityMan]

Could it be as simple as that when Dr. Horn found out that the shell casing was found on top of blood that he changes his mind? Perhaps he feared to take the chance of being made to look like he was wrong because of this? Ego? So he switches to the 'he couldn't have been shot first, but I won't speculate and commit to an actual sequence' position. So the state has to flip their entire case around because the ME has changed his analysis to protect himself from potential professional embarrassment? It is pretty clear to me he started out gunshot wound first that didn't disable TA and Flores was telling the truth, but went along with it in the end.

Based on detective Flores' report, I believe the ME told detective Flores at one point that he thought the gun shot wound came first. But I don't think he made a statement on the record about the sequence of events until the defense interview.

It was in that interview that the ME first stated that he did not think TA would have been able to defend himself (and thus suffer the defensive wounds) if he had already sustained the gun shot wound. I don't think this statement by the ME is necessarily inconsistent with the ME's final report. However, it is clearly speculation by the ME. In other words, another ME could look at facts discussed in the final report and determine that TA could have defended himself after suffering the gun shot wound. And apparently another ME already has reached this opposite conclusion. (See the Fuhrman interview in which Furhman discusses the conclusion of Dr. Michael Baden that the gun shot wound came first.)

The ME's testimony remained the same as in the defense interview--specifically, that the ME did not believe TA could have defended himself from the knife attack after he had suffered the gunshot wound. In response to JM's question as to whether the gun shot wound was delivered after TA was dead, the ME merely responded "it's possible." Note that the ME didn't say "probably" or "likely," but just "possible." "It's possible" is hardly a ringing endorsement of the prosecution's theory that JA delivered the gun shot wound after dragging TA's lifeless body back to the bathroom.

Also, the ME refused to state that TA would have necessarily been totally incapacitated by the gun shot wound. He was asked twice about this. Both times he refused to rule out the possibility that TA might have been able to at least move around for 1 minute and 46 seconds.

 

[geevee]

I think the carpet picture is pretty..ahem..compelling for the gunshot having already occurred when his throat was slashed, I marked the areas I think corresponds to his wounds:

http://s1287.beta.photobucket.com/u...rt=3&o=0&_suid=136354138309306119190921262763

 

[pip]

I find it hard to believe he would be influenced by the shell casing. There was a huge fight in that bathroom, a body drug through it, the place was flooded with water, and a clean up--do I really think that shell casing ended up where it started out and all of this mayhem danced around the casing leaving it where it originally landed? No. lol

And, I doubt he would, either.

It's got to be something else. Maybe some legal thing.

IMO

I seriously think it might. There are a lot of people here that think the chance of that shell casing have been kicked there by accident is ridiculous nonsense. (Of course I do absolutely believe that is exactly what happened). Dr. Horn testified that he NEVER speculates or writes in his autopsy reports the sequence of injuries. Well, he sure did this time and said it to Flores...and then obviously regretted saying it for a reason. He may be a doc with a fragile ego and the casing found on the blood would suggest his opinion may be wrong, and it wasn't a risk he was willing to take. I have worked with MD's for 25 years.. many with super ego issues who can never be wrong. So this would not surprise me one bit.
Can't really think of what else would cause him to recant his first version, unless he feared being proved wrong. He did not want his stamp of approval on the sequence he gave Flores, so he wriggled back out of it.

 

[RealityMan]

Could it be as simple as that when Dr. Horn found out that the shell casing was found on top of blood that he changes his mind? Perhaps he feared to take the chance of being made to look like he was wrong because of this? Ego? So he switches to the 'he couldn't have been shot first, but I won't speculate and commit to an actual sequence' position. So the state has to flip their entire case around because the ME has changed his analysis to protect himself from potential professional embarrassment? It is pretty clear to me he started out gunshot wound first that didn't disable TA and Flores was telling the truth, but went along with it in the end.

I think it's possible the ME really thought it was more probable than not that TA wouldn't have been able to defend himself from the knife attack after suffering the gun shot wound.

But I can't help thinking that the ME might've been influenced to reach this particular conclusion based on the apparent resting spot of the shell casing in the blood, which a jury might find persuasive, even though it's incredibly weak evidence, AND the fact that JM would be able to seek the death penalty based on the alternative grounds if JA did inflict the knife wounds first, even if the jury somehow didn't agree on premeditation.

I agree, after reading detective Flores' report, that it is likely the ME changed his conclusion on the sequence of events for some reason after speaking to Flores.

 

[pip]

Based on detective Flores' report, I believe the ME told detective Flores at one point that he thought the gun shot wound came first. But I don't think he made a statement on the record about the sequence of events until the defense interview.

It was in that interview that the ME first stated that he did not think TA would have been able to defend himself (and thus suffer the defensive wounds) if he had already sustained the gun shot wound. I don't think this statement by the ME is necessarily inconsistent with the ME's final report. However, it is clearly speculation by the ME. In other words, another ME could look at facts discussed in the final report and determine that TA could have defended himself after suffering the gun shot wound. And apparently another ME already has reached this opposite conclusion. (See the Fuhrman interview in which Furhman discusses the conclusion of Dr. Michael Baden that the gun shot wound came first.)

The ME's testimony remained the same as in the defense interview--specifically, that the ME did not believe TA could have defended himself from the knife attack after he had suffered the gunshot wound. In response to JM's question as to whether the gun shot wound was delivered after TA was dead, the ME merely responded "it's possible." Note that the ME didn't say "probably" or "likely," but just "possible." "It's possible" is hardly a ringing endorsement of the prosecution's theory that JA delivered the gun shot wound after dragging TA's lifeless body back to the bathroom.

Also, the ME refused to state that TA would have necessarily been totally incapacitated by the gun shot wound. He was asked twice about this. Both times he refused to rule out the possibility that TA might have been able to at least move around for 1 minute and 46 seconds.

You are right, he did not make the statement on record. Only to Flores, which I believe is true. I agree that he stuck with the fact that TA could not defend himself after the GSW. He obviously couldn't. He threw up a defense against the blows, but could not counter attack. This was not because the bullet hit his brain.. it didn't. (Autopsy report proves this.) He was stunned, in shock, in pain, likely blinded on the right, disoriented from the blow to the skull and bleeding profusely from his very traumatic facial injuries after he manages to stumble to the sink. She went in for the kill from behind with a knife in her inability to shoot again. He turned to try to get away from her, she stabs him in the frontal chest..superior vena cava, giving him just enough time to try and get down the hall as she continues to stab him until he is unable to sustain and he drops at the end of the corridor. She slashes his throat. JMO.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Tell me again what the dura mater is. Is this another magic bullet?

The bullet did not enter the brain.

Read the autopsy report.

IMO

You mean the bullet bounced off the dura mater??? :facepalm:

Can people please stop acting like you understand the autopsy report better than the man who wrote it?

 

[weather_lady]

I had the same thought at first. But take a look at the next photo, which was taken 70 seconds later. TA is still resting his arms in a pose that very closely matches the position of his arms in the face shot photo. I don't think TA would remain in that particular, apparently relaxed pose for so long if JA was threatening him with a weapon at any point between the last two shower shots.

In fact, I don't think TA ever saw the weapon until possibly after he was struck with it. We know that 44 seconds after the last shower shot, JA took the ceiling shot and just 62 seconds after the ceiling shot, JA had inflicted all of the knife wounds (at least) and was with TA at the end of the hallway, as evidenced by the first bleeding shot.

I agree. While I initially thought the shower facial close-up showed fear and confusion, like many do, I've since seen many pictures of TA and JA together wherein he's making that same, super-serious face. I think it was his go-to "macho" expression. I also agree that his body language in those photos (and the ones before, where he is flexing his arms and/or turning his back fully) appears to be relaxed, in spite of that last, awkward position JA had directed him to assume.

 

[pip]

If the bullet had passed thru his frontal lobe it would have to pass thru the dura mater first. His autopsy report states the dura and all structures are intact and appear without trauma. If he would have found the dura had been penetrated by the bullet he would not say 'intact', he would have documented his findings in the dura. He now says the bullet had to pass thru the frontal lobe, because he can say whatever he wants. Yet, his actual autopsy clearly and completely negates that statement. Can't have it both ways Dr. Horn. Same as the brain being liquified or soft.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

He clearly played fast and loose with his testimony on the stand, imo. He was talking about shock waves to the brain. You would get a shock wave to the brain by any blow to the head. But, the question is...why? Why did the State change their position [of gun first] from the probable cause hearing?

Because Flores was wrong. He misunderstood. Just like a few here are misunderstanding the ME.

And, when did the Defense find out they had changed their position?

They found out when they interviewed him BEFORE THE TRIAL.

There seems to be an ongoing appeal to the higher court about this--it could put the death penalty in jeopardy.

No, there's nothing ongoing. Their motion to remove the death penalty was taken to the supreme court and it was DENIED.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

But, if you take gun first away from me then, sure, she seems to be sneaking through Arizona, but she was always sneaking around to see Travis,

You mean she turned off her phone whenever she drove to Travis's? Did she also always remove her license plates and take gas cans? If you believe she did, then you just removed premeditation with the gun too.

You'd be a dream juror for the defense.

 

[pip]

You mean the bullet bounced off the dura mater??? :facepalm:

Can people please stop acting like you understand the autopsy report better than the man who wrote it?

I do understand it, completely. It is clear as day. Dura Mater.. INTACT. The Dura don't lie, baby. Nuff said 'bout that.

 

[RealityMan]

You mean the bullet bounced off the dura mater??? :facepalm:

Can people please stop acting like you understand the autopsy report better than the man who wrote it?

From the autopsy report at http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/redactedtravisautopsy.pdf:

"The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and traverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury (although examination of brain tissue is somewhat limited by the decomposed nature of the remains) . . .

"The dura mater and falx cerebri are intact. There is good preservation of cerebral symmetry with diffuse green-gray softening of parenchyma due to decomposition. Multiple serial sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma . . . "

Don't these statements in the autopsy report seem inconsistent with the ME's opinion that the bullet entered the brain in the first place? And, even if the bullet did enter the brain, don't these statements seem inconsistent with the ME's opinion that TA could not have defended himself from the knife wounds if he was shot first?

I think a lay person has reason to question the ME's opinion based on the ME's clear statements of fact in the autopsy report with respect to the gunshot wound and the condition of TA's brain afterward.

 

[pip]

It is interesting that we have not seen an autopsy photo of the right side of his face, including the GSW entry point. Must be a lot of trauma from the GSW to the face (Not Head). Too awful, thus likely considered too prejudicial for the jurors to see. I wouldn't want to see it, but I bet it would clear up the brain vs. face trauma issue.
Poor Travis. It must have been so horrific for him. He really suffered to the very end.
RIP

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

You are leaving out the alternative conclusion. That he was NOT shot in the head, he was shot in the face. There was no blood in his brain nor cranium and all structures, including the dura, appeared intact (soft d/t decomposition...but not liquified) upon autopsy. ME found nothing, nada. There was plenty of blood, it came from his highly vascular sinus cavity via his nose and mouth and it is all over the sink.

This is getting ridiculous. You claim to have read the report. Did you miss this part?

"The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone."

 

[pip]

From the autopsy report at http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/redactedtravisautopsy.pdf:

"The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and traverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury (although examination of brain tissue is somewhat limited by the decomposed nature of the remains) . . .

"The dura mater and falx cerebri are intact. There is good preservation of cerebral symmetry with diffuse green-gray softening of parenchyma due to decomposition. Multiple serial sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma . . . "

Don't these statements in the autopsy report seem inconsistent with the ME's opinion that the bullet entered the brain in the first place? And, even if the bullet did enter the brain, don't these statements seem inconsistent with the ME's opinion that TA could not have defended himself from the knife wounds if he was shot first?

Completely inconsistent. But I do believe he could not have defended himself either way. I believe the shot to the face would have caused a great deal of disability d/t shock, bleeding, pain, probable right vision disturbance, profuse bleeding into his mouth and nose from his sinuses and some level of disorientation from the blow to the skull. Shock waves to the brain, as Dr. Horn attested to. Basically a concussion. He would have been even less able to defend himself had the bullet actually entered the brain but the facial trauma was enough to render him defenseless other than to put his hands up and try to escape. He was in no shape to counter attack. JMO.

 

[beldon]

I want so badly to believe the knife first theory because it would be so problematic for the state if they are wrong. While its been said it really doesnt matter, in that respect it just might because it risks the jurors' trust and confidence in the prosecution if something this integral is inaccurate they could question other aspects (and if any of them are having problems with handing her the DP, this could be an excuse to site reasonable doubt).

Neither way makes complete sense, but no matter how hard i try I just cant get past so many things that keep me from being able to accept knife first. But just 2 things about gun first dont make sense to me.

These are just my own thoughts, and I really am hoping that by posting them, things might come to light that could help me see it differently

Reasons gun first doesn't fit

ME: Debatable

Casing on top of blood: .25's are famous for 'stovepiping' which would explain both why she didnt shoot again, and how it couldve ended up on top of blood (casing hangs and jams, dislodged some time after

Reasons knife first doesn't fit

Risk - taking a chance of being overpowered, further risk of leaving more evidence

Theft - Why steal if you arent going to use it (to use for threat maybe, im iffy on this one)

Forensics - All along she's tried to craft her stories to go
along with the evidence.

Ninjas When she told this story, she wanted to be believed. She had no way of knowing whether or not they could prove otherwise, so wouldn't she have stuck with the right order, just in case, rather than tell a story that might be medically impossible and thus tip them off that she's lying about the intruders?

Picture: In the seconds before the 'dropped' camera, he's already down and she took a picture of it (chest down only). I cant see her stabbing him once or more times and then taking the time to snap a pic of it when by then he'd be reacting. I can see her shooting him in the head and assuming she killed him, then taking a picture of her handiwork before she realized, "oh carp, he's moving/groaning/alive!" followed by dropping the camera (ceiling shot) and taking off. (per the ninja story - he may have begged for help and actually thought she'd gone to get some instead of going to get the knife)

Angle - horizontal and upward - he was standing for the chest wound. If we assume she attacked him in a sitting position and inflicted some of the other non fatal wounds, he'd have been able to put up a considerable fight (just imo, he'd win or at worst she'd have some serious injuries)

Gun: If she did make him sit with the threat of the gun, but used the knife to first attack, she'd have had to fight him off with both hands occupied, and likely would've used the gun at that time anyway.

SINK I can think of no scenario that could result in him staggering to the sink and turning his back on her after/during being stabbed. Assuming she did attack him
with the knife in the shower, this would mean he managed to get up - thus his injuries were not incapacitating, so he'd have struggled with her - or tried to run (fight or
flight) not further corner himself by moving in the direction of the sink, and worse - turning his back on her.

Trajectory - if the gunshot is last, she'd have had to have propped his body up against a wall or something I would image difficult if not impossible in that condition, then stepped a few feet away -or- laid down on the floor even with his body, back and to the left a few feet away(no stippling) Both seem unlikely to me.

 

[pip]

This is getting ridiculous. You claim to have read the report. Did you miss this part?

"The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone."

And your point is? Yep. I read it thoroughly. It entered above the right eyebrow on the anterior frontal skull, went down to the left via right anterior fossa, thru his sinus cavity and lodged in the left maxillary bone. Dura intact. No cerebral injuries. The bullet missed his brain. Amazing, huh? Not really.
She is one bad shot. With all the planning she put into his murder, a few lessons at the firing range never made it to her To Do list somehow.