Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[luvtenniss]

You are right, he did not make the statement on record. Only to Flores, which I believe is true. I agree that he stuck with the fact that TA could not defend himself after the GSW. He obviously couldn't. He threw up a defense against the blows, but could not counter attack. This was not because the bullet hit his brain.. it didn't. (Autopsy report proves this.) He was stunned, in shock, in pain, likely blinded on the right, disoriented from the blow to the skull and bleeding profusely from his very traumatic facial injuries after he manages to stumble to the sink. She went in for the kill from behind with a knife in her inability to shoot again. He turned to try to get away from her, she stabs him in the frontal chest..superior vena cava, giving him just enough time to try and get down the hall as she continues to stab him until he is unable to sustain and he drops at the end of the corridor. She slashes his throat. JMO.

Agree - my theory, too!!

 

[RealityMan]

While searching for more information about the autopsy report on hlntv.com, I came across some interesting analysis by yet another pathologist, Dr. Carol Terry, who reviewed the autopsy report and concluded that the gun shot wound came first. See http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/01/22/what-really-killed-travis-alexander.

Some of her reasoning:

* The gun was fired from a few feet away. "If you've already stabbed him in the heart and slit his throat, why now back away and shoot him?"

* "If soon after receiving this gunshot wound, Mr. Alexander sustained a more significant injury that results in loss of blood, such as that cut across the neck or the stab wound of the heart, then there might not be a whole lot of blood flowing up to the head to allow more bleeding into those soft tissues."

 

[luvtenniss]

I know a lot of people question why did she have the knife if she didn't plan on using it. I feel the same about stealing and bringing the gun. I think she planned on killing him with the gun. She had the knife in her purse from previous tire slashings (and who knows what other awful things). When she saw the gun didn't work, it was an easy grab of the knife from her purse.

MOO

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

From the autopsy report at http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/redactedtravisautopsy.pdf:

"The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and traverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury (although examination of brain tissue is somewhat limited by the decomposed nature of the remains) . . .

"The dura mater and falx cerebri are intact. There is good preservation of cerebral symmetry with diffuse green-gray softening of parenchyma due to decomposition. Multiple serial sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma . . . "
..
Don't these statements in the autopsy report seem inconsistent with the ME's opinion that the bullet entered the brain in the first place? And, even if the bullet did enter the brain, don't these statements seem inconsistent with the ME's opinion that TA could not have defended himself from the knife wounds if he was shot first?

I think a lay person has reason to question the ME's opinion based on the ME's clear statements of fact in the autopsy report with respect to the gunshot wound and the condition of TA's brain afterward.

If someone is confused by the report, they shouldn't be after hearing the testimony, where he made it clear that bullet passed through the brain.

 

[LambChop]

You mean the bullet bounced off the dura mater??? :facepalm:

Can people please stop acting like you understand the autopsy report better than the man who wrote it?

I guess not. I have never worked for an MD, only malpractice attorneys but I understood what was written in the autopsy report to go along with what Dr. Horn stated in court. For some reason it's important to discredit this ME. Not sure why but I'd need a lot more evidence presented which so far I have not seen. Have not seen a report from Dr. Baden, Dr. Spitz, nada. So I guess I'll stay with the good doctor's report until it is proven otherwise. jmo

 

[LambChop]

If someone is confused by the report, they shouldn't be after hearing the testimony, where he made it clear that bullet passed through the brain.

Didn't he also say when JW protested about the bullet entering the brain Dr. Horn replied that the brain in a young person is flush up against the skull in that area. The meaning of perforated is hole so wouldn't that actually be a magic bullet if it were able to put a hole in the skull and totally miss hitting the brain since the brain is flush with the skull? Plus I think the fact that this portion of his brain was liquefied because of the decomp which points to probable damage when compared to the rest of the brain matter which was soft and he was able to examine.

Don't know but it sounds reasonable to me. jmo

 

[pip]

While searching for more information about the autopsy report on hlntv.com, I came across some interesting analysis by yet another pathologist, Dr. Carol Terry, who reviewed the autopsy report and concluded that the gun shot wound came first. See http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/01/22/what-really-killed-travis-alexander.

Some of her reasoning:

* The gun was fired from a few feet away. "If you've already stabbed him in the heart and slit his throat, why now back away and shoot him?"

* "If soon after receiving this gunshot wound, Mr. Alexander sustained a more significant injury that results in loss of blood, such as that cut across the neck or the stab wound of the heart, then there might not be a whole lot of blood flowing up to the head to allow more bleeding into those soft tissues."

Her analysis is based upon the scenario that the brain was actually hit with the bullet and as to why there may not be hemorrhaging found within the brain. Poor perfusion from a larger, immediate secondary hemorrhaging injury.. True that. In this case, with a non brain penetrating GSW, just facial trauma, if you look at the amount of blood at the sink, it looks like a lot and that he stood there for some time, but I believe it was a very short time. He would have been really bleeding and coughing out blood profusely from his vascular facial injuries, and a lot of blood was lost in a very short time. The knife must have been very close by and the stabbing must have commenced pretty quickly, as well as his effort to get away from her. The stabs to the back and then his heart came pretty quickly after he got to the sink, imo.

 

[LambChop]

I know a lot of people question why did she have the knife if she didn't plan on using it. I feel the same about stealing and bringing the gun. I think she planned on killing him with the gun. She had the knife in her purse from previous tire slashings (and who knows what other awful things). When she saw the gun didn't work, it was an easy grab of the knife from her purse.

MOO

LOL. She brought the wrong gun.

I keep thinking that maybe she grabbed that gun as a backup and thought she'd try to get MM's "unregistered" gun because we all know he could not report it stolen, or Darryl's gun which were more powerful than what she had. She failed at getting them so she was stuck with the smaller gun. I think she grabbed some heavy steak knives from the restaurant where she worked to bring with her. She had knives with her in the rental car when she was arrested. jmo

 

[LambChop]

While searching for more information about the autopsy report on hlntv.com, I came across some interesting analysis by yet another pathologist, Dr. Carol Terry, who reviewed the autopsy report and concluded that the gun shot wound came first. See http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/01/22/what-really-killed-travis-alexander.

Some of her reasoning:

* The gun was fired from a few feet away. "If you've already stabbed him in the heart and slit his throat, why now back away and shoot him?"

* "If soon after receiving this gunshot wound, Mr. Alexander sustained a more significant injury that results in loss of blood, such as that cut across the neck or the stab wound of the heart, then there might not be a whole lot of blood flowing up to the head to allow more bleeding into those soft tissues."

Why is she using the word "if" when reviewing the autopsy report. My guess is because she can't tell by the report what happened and when. She is speculating with if's. Really does not tell us anything more than what we can guess about here. jmo

 

[luvtenniss]

LOL. She brought the wrong gun.

I keep thinking that maybe she grabbed that gun as a backup and thought she'd try to get MM's "unregistered" gun because we all know he could not report it stolen, or Darryl's gun which were more powerful than what she had. She failed at getting them so she was stuck with the smaller gun. I think she grabbed some heavy steak knives from the restaurant where she worked to bring with her. She had knives with her in the rental car when she was arrested. jmo

She sure did bring the wrong gun. But she isn't really the brightest person, either. The whole robbery nonsense, for example, along with so many other instances.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

We all know that regardless of whether the knife or gun came first, his throat was cut at this point in the struggle, but my main point of confusion is pinpointing the location where the throat-cutting occurred, based on the "foot/bleeding TA" photograph. Given the location and extent of the bleeding down his neck and onto his shoulder, I believe that this was taken immediately after the throat-cutting occurred, and that JA triggered the camera when she stepped up/back after doing it, and was looking down at TA to watch what would happen. The ME testified that TA would have been conscious for up to a few seconds afterwards, and that it was possible that he was raising his own arm and head in that photo in one last, futile effort to defend himself or escape. (To me, the angle of the arm is too low for JA to have been dragging him at this point).

She could have been starting to lift the arm. The camera was bumped at that moment, so it could be because of that movement.

This photo was clearly taken with him lying on his back, parallel to the direction of the hallway, with JA standing behind his head, on tile. The huge blood puddle on the bedroom carpet at the end of the hall is where I've always assumed his throat was cut. However, I'm not sure how this jibes with that photo, which has TA on his back in the hallway -- can't tell if his feet are toward the bedroom or bathroom.

They are at the far end of the hallway next to the carpet. See the attachments below to see how tile matches in those pictures.

OR did she cut his throat in the bedroom, flip him over onto his back and start dragging him toward the bathroom feet-first, and then run back around behind his head when he started to move, again snapping the photo toward the bathroom? Or did she simply drag him backwards (from the bedroom back into the hallway) before the cut to his throat, cut his throat right there in the hallway, in the position he appears in the picture, with that insular puddle of blood on the bedroom carpet coming from his initial efforts to escape through the bedroom? I'd love to hear some thoughts on this! I just can't tell precisely where the camera was in the hallway for that picture (or the one of the baseboard that follows).

It's tough to figure out where the throat cutting occurred. I think by the transfer swipe high on the wall right before the carpet means he made it that far on his feet/crawling. He likely fell face first on the carpet. But then not sure if she turned him over before the neck cut or not. Maybe she even did it after she started dragging him back. The deep stain on the carpet means it was probably done there, but then the dragging photo looks like his neck could still be intact. I'm going with on the carpet, but not completely sure.

 

[danzn16]

From Dr. Horn's autopsy:

Gunshot: "Perforation of inferior skull base, anterior fossa and facial skeleton." And further: "1/8 inch circular wound....the wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull.....projectile re-enters the facial skeleton near the midline..."

The damages done by the stabbing to the head are listed under the Nervous System heading and are unrelated to the gunshot wound because it's a different weapon and the wounds are in the cerebral area not the frontal lobe.

I can understand that.

And just for people that don't know medical terms the anterior fossa is the depression in the skull in which the frontal lobes are located in. You cant perforate the anterior fossa without perforating the frontal lobes. This confusion is coming from lay mans trying to interpret a forensic pathologists medical terms.

Thanks lampchop!!

 

[danzn16]

Under the gunshot wound track section:

"The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and tranverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury...


He says it again under the description of the wound track--the brain was not injured.

"without...apparent cerebral injury.."


cerebral definition
Adjective

1. Of or relating to the brain or cerebrum.

Snipped by me.

To transverse the anterior fossa (ie the cavity that holds the frontal lobes) you have to enter the frontal lobe of the brain. This is the only way possible by anatomical terms.

The "without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or injury" is statement that he did not bleed and resulting cause injury from it because he had no blood flow to the brain as the shot occurred because TA had already bleed out. This is just the statement stating the lack of blood flow to the brain and the resulting lack of bleeding and resultant cerebral edema and injury that would be normally be caused by bleeding in the brain.

Again lay mans trying to interpret medical terms that they haven't been trained to understand or interpret...

 

[geevee]

You will see those same tile patterns all over the bathroom/hallway, that isn't stone where each piece is unique, it's manufactured porcelain or ceramic tile, so I don't think using it for location purposes is of any benefit, unfortunately. But Flores report states that pic was taken at the north end of the bathroom hallway (as per the prosec. diagram).

 

[LambChop]

And just for people that don't know medical terms the anterior fossa is the depression in the skull in which the frontal lobes are located in. You cant perforate the anterior fossa without perforating the frontal lobes. This confusion is coming from lay mans trying to interpret a forensic pathologists medical terms.

Thanks lampchop!!

Oh, I have some more. This is from the doctor's testimony during cross with JW:

Doctor: "People w/injuries to their brains they are not incapacitated - having something going thru brain - it had to have passed thru the brain, skull is perforated where the brain is. It had to have passed thru the brain, passed thru right frontal lobe - it had to pass thru the brain, a hole into the skull and exit from skull cavity into the face. There is no way it could have avoided the brain."
JW: You are sure of that?
Doctor: Yes!

Just a note. Dr. Horn seemed to be quite agitated that JW just was not able to understand that. With the bullet landing in the left cheek I really don't see how it could be any other way. jmo

 

[danzn16]

A fellow poster did the very same picture with her laying on the floor with her foot out in the picture. Her husband's foot is next to the came in the same position as this picture. Her foot looks very far away and it looks exactly like the picture. To the camera the object is very far away and not close to the lens. It has already been proven it is his foot. I do not know what else will convince you unless the poster who posted her picture puts it up for you. jmo

I saw the picture remake also. It is most definitely a foot. It looked exactly like the crime scene photo. I didn't fully understand that photo until I saw the remake. It was on the news as well. Not sure how to find it but man I wish I could

 

[LambChop]

Snipped by me.

To transverse the anterior fossa (ie the cavity that holds the frontal lobes) you have to enter the frontal lobe of the brain. This is the only way possible by anatomical terms.

The "without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or injury" is statement that he did not bleed and resulting cause injury from it because he had no blood flow to the brain as the shot occurred because TA had already bleed out. This is just the statement stating the lack of blood flow to the brain and the resulting lack of bleeding and resultant cerebral edema and injury that would be normally be caused by bleeding in the brain.

Again lay mans trying to interpret medical terms that they haven't been trained to understand or interpret...

Thank you for explaining it so we can understand it clearly. Reading the autopsy can be confusing but Dr. Horn knows what he means and so will another ME. I still have seen nothing on a professional level that challenges his report only "what ifs".

 

[danzn16]

Could it be as simple as that when Dr. Horn found out that the shell casing was found on top of blood that he changes his mind? Perhaps he feared to take the chance of being made to look like he was wrong because of this? Ego? So he switches to the 'he couldn't have been shot first, but I won't speculate and commit to an actual sequence' position. So the state has to flip their entire case around because the ME has changed his analysis to protect himself from potential professional embarrassment? It is pretty clear to me he started out gunshot wound first that didn't disable TA and Flores was telling the truth, but went along with it in the end.

MEs don't change their report due to crime scene evidence. Once a report is made you can not go back and change what you wrote, you lose your license that way and not just for MEs. What he said in court was medical terminology put into laymans terms so the jury could understand the report. It is the same thing but put into regular human words.

 

[LambChop]

I saw the picture remake also. It is most definitely a foot. It looked exactly like the crime scene photo. I didn't fully understand that photo until I saw the remake. It was on the news as well. Not sure how to find it but man I wish I could

I believe it was a regular poster here so maybe they will get the message that we would like to repost that picture. Thanks

 

[LambChop]

MEs don't change their report due to crime scene evidence. Once a report is made you can not go back and change what you wrote, you lose your license that way and not just for MEs. What he said in court was medical terminology put into laymans terms so the jury could understand the report. It is the same thing but put into regular human words.

Plus I don't think Dr. Horn knew 5 years ago that an autopsy he was about to perform would end up being televised in 2013. It was just another day in Mesa to him.