Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[RealityMan]

If someone is confused by the report, they shouldn't be after hearing the testimony, where he made it clear that bullet passed through the brain.

Yes, I believe the bullet did pass through the brain. However, I believe that the wound was not completely incapacitating. And the ME leaves open that possibility.

 

[LambChop]

Yes, I believe the bullet did pass through the brain. However, I believe that the wound was not completely incapacitating. And the ME leaves open that possibility.

If she did shoot him first she must have immediately realized this is not going to work. We know he made it to the sink and down the hallway so if he were shot first, no, he was not incapacitated. jmo

 

[molly333]

And just for people that don't know medical terms the anterior fossa is the depression in the skull in which the frontal lobes are located in. You cant perforate the anterior fossa without perforating the frontal lobes. This confusion is coming from lay mans trying to interpret a forensic pathologists medical terms.

Thanks lampchop!!

And just for anyone who doesn't know medical terms, the dura mater is the tough membrane that surrounds the brain. If the dura mater is intact, you have not penetrated the brain.

From the autopsy report:


dura mater and falx cerebri are intact.


There's nothing to interpret. We can read English.

The frontal lobes were never penetrated.

IMO

 

[pip]

Yes, I believe the bullet did pass through the brain. However, I believe that the wound was not completely incapacitating. And the ME leaves open that possibility.

When did he state that the dura was torn or penetrated to allow the bullet into the brain? He didn't document it, nor did he describe anything of that nature in his verbal testimony. He just said, "It had to pass thru the frontal lobe". He states he cannot see the wound track, he documents that the dura is intact and all cerebral structures are intact without any signs of trauma. Structurally normal in shape. That is one magic bullet. If the bullet passed thru the brain, he would have had some evidence of that to document. He didn't. He tried to say well, the brain was liquified and ability to examine was lost. Yet, the defense pressed him and he admits well, the brain was soft, not liquified, and yes.. I was able to take slices for pathology.
I am all for seeing JA sitting on deathrow, but something fishy has transpired here with this ME and the curious want to know.

 

[pip]

And just for people that don't know medical terms the anterior fossa is the depression in the skull in which the frontal lobes are located in. You cant perforate the anterior fossa without perforating the frontal lobes. This confusion is coming from lay mans trying to interpret a forensic pathologists medical terms.

Thanks lampchop!!

I'm gonna take a stab at this and guess that it is you that is more befitting of the "lay mans" title.
It can penetrate the anterior fossa without hitting the brain.. and it did. Dura Mater intact. End of story. 25 years in acute care as an RN including Trauma ICU, Med/Surg ICU and CVICU, and currently PACU (yes, including neurosurgery) makes me far cry from a "lay mans" or layman when it comes to understanding medical terms or interpreting a written MD's report. This is actually not that complicated as you think. If a layman understands simply what the Dura Mater is and that it is intact per his report, it answers the question of penetrating brain injury or not. In this case..clearly NOT. Now his verbal testimony is another story, it dramatically differs, but his original written autopsy report reads loud and clear. Nada.
No, I am not an MD, but it does not require an MD to understand a medical report. I read medical reports all day everyday...it is a necessary part of my job.

 

[RealityMan]

When did he state that the dura was torn or penetrated to allow the bullet into the brain? He didn't document it, nor did he describe anything of that nature in his verbal testimony. He just said, "It had to pass thru the frontal lobe". He states he cannot see the wound track, he documents that the dura is intact and all cerebral structures are intact without any signs of trauma. Structurally normal in shape. That is one magic bullet. If the bullet passed thru the brain, he would have had some evidence of that to document. He didn't. He tried to say well, the brain was liquified and ability to examine was lost. Yet, the defense pressed him and he admits well, the brain was soft, not liquified, and yes.. I was able to take slices for pathology.
I am all for seeing JA sitting on deathrow, but something fishy has transpired here with this ME and the curious want to know.

From the ME's testimony:

Defense: And do you remember telling Detective Flores that you knew this because the gunshot wound would not have completely incapacitated somebody

ME: I don't recall saying that either

Defense: Is that something you think you would have never said to Detective Flores?

ME: I think I've said it here in court that I don't think it would immediately incapacitate him or kill him. But it would be a serious injury, but I don't recall telling Detective Flores that, no.

Defense: Ok, so, let me back up for a second, so you are saying the gunshot wound is not immediately incapacitating?

ME: I would say not immediately fatal

Defense: I'm not talking about fatal, I'm just talking about incapacitating

ME: I think...yes, it would be incapacitating, passing through his brain, so yes

Defense: So...and that's assuming it was passing through his brain, you would say it is incapacitating.

ME: I'm saying it did pass through his brain

Can we agree that, based on the above, the ME has stated that TA may not have been immediately killed or incapacitated by the gunshot wound? If so, doesn't the ME leave open the possibility that the gunshot wound came first and TA could have been moving around for 1 minute and 46 seconds afterward?

Prosecutor (JM): The issue of the gunshot wound, did the gunshot wound go through the frontal lobe or not?

Me: It did

Prosecutor (JM): If it goes through the frontal lobe, what does the human body do if a gunshot goes through the frontal lobe?

Me: Well, there is a shock to the entire brain, as a projectile is passing through so its not just like an arrow or a nail. You've also got expanding gasses, you've got a tumbling projectile, so generally you're going to have... its a shock situation neurological shock, and those people are incapacitated.

The ME has stated that the bullet went through the frontal lobe. I agree with that assessment. The ME has also stated that the gunshot wound would not have been immediately fatal or incapacitating. I agree with that statement.

So, I guess I agree with the ME in regard to those two points. But I still maintain it is more likely that JA shot TA first and then used the knife to finish him off. So I disagree with the ME's final conclusion.

 

[molly333]

Snipped by me.

To transverse the anterior fossa (ie the cavity that holds the frontal lobes) you have to enter the frontal lobe of the brain. This is the only way possible by anatomical terms.

The "without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or injury" is statement that he did not bleed and resulting cause injury from it because he had no blood flow to the brain as the shot occurred because TA had already bleed out. This is just the statement stating the lack of blood flow to the brain and the resulting lack of bleeding and resultant cerebral edema and injury that would be normally be caused by bleeding in the brain.

Again lay mans trying to interpret medical terms that they haven't been trained to understand or interpret...

<modsnip>.

The reason there was no bleeding is because according to the autopsy report there was no apparent cerebral injury.

In other words, for us laymen, the brain was not damaged.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I'm a gun firster and before this was a thread some of us discussed this...

.25 jam easily as I'm told by gun owners.

You mean she brought it in case the gun jammed? So, the same person who stole a gun from their own house, had the foresight to worry about a gun jamming? Possible, but likely?

When people use a gun, they don't usually worry about it jamming. Most people using a gun in a crime don't carry two guns or any extra weapons.

Also I think she wanted to make it look like two intruders thus the two weapons. I believe she fully intended to use both.

Ifif she wanted to make it look like two intruders, that removes the gun jamming explanation for using the knife, doesn't it? So which one is it?

I do agree it's possible she used both weapons to make it look like two people, but then I think that favors a knife first theory. If you shoot someone in the head, you'd expect them to go down and die. No knife necessary.

 

[danzn16]

If the bullet had passed thru his frontal lobe it would have to pass thru the dura mater first. His autopsy report states the dura and all structures are intact and appear without trauma. If he would have found the dura had been penetrated by the bullet he would not say 'intact', he would have documented his findings in the dura. He now says the bullet had to pass thru the frontal lobe, because he can say whatever he wants. Yet, his actual autopsy clearly and completely negates that statement. Can't have it both ways Dr. Horn. Same as the brain being liquified or soft.

You don't know if it is common for MEs to retell the injury they have previously already reported in another section. that section could very well be the report of the examination of other structures other than the injury already discussed. Doctors are known for writing as little as possible because they are so busy. It clearly states the bullet entered the anterior fossa, repeating the same thing on further exam after he GSW is not really necessary. And that's why they call the ME to court to report on the findings. That autopsy report is the doctors notes and he interprets it, not random citizens. Otherwise a ME would never need to appear in court.

When the brain dies or decomposes the medical term for its disintegration is called liquefactive necrosis, hence the reason is sometimes called liquified and its also called soft. It is two well known descriptions when describing a dying brain... Again laymans thinking they know all things medical. *sigh

 

[molly333]

From the ME's testimony:

This is what we are saying. His testimony did not agree with his own autopsy report. Plus, he also equivocated in his testimony.

IMO

 

[pip]

We can thank ERRN1313 for pointing us to these facts in the written autopsy report first. Great find and good job! :clap:

 

[danzn16]

You mean she turned off her phone whenever she drove to Travis's? Did she also always remove her license plates and take gas cans? If you believe she did, then you just removed premeditation with the gun too.

You'd be a dream juror for the defense.

Exactly JA still did everything prior to the attack that makes it premeditation regardless of weapon used. Both theories are premeditated. Bringing a knife is the same as bringing a gun, and she did both. However I think the knife first is more heinous. That's the only difference. It doesn't risk a murder one charge with either theory.

 

[Spool]

I want so badly to believe the knife first theory because it would be so problematic for the state if they are wrong. While its been said it really doesnt matter, in that respect it just might because it risks the jurors' trust and confidence in the prosecution if something this integral is inaccurate they could question other aspects (and if any of them are having problems with handing her the DP, this could be an excuse to site reasonable doubt).

Neither way makes complete sense, but no matter how hard i try I just cant get past so many things that keep me from being able to accept knife first. But just 2 things about gun first dont make sense to me.

These are just my own thoughts, and I really am hoping that by posting them, things might come to light that could help me see it differently

Reasons gun first doesn't fit

ME: Debatable

Casing on top of blood: .25's are famous for 'stovepiping' which would explain both why she didnt shoot again, and how it couldve ended up on top of blood (casing hangs and jams, dislodged some time after

Reasons knife first doesn't fit

Risk - taking a chance of being overpowered, further risk of leaving more evidence

Theft - Why steal if you arent going to use it (to use for threat maybe, im iffy on this one)

Forensics - All along she's tried to craft her stories to go
along with the evidence.

Ninjas When she told this story, she wanted to be believed. She had no way of knowing whether or not they could prove otherwise, so wouldn't she have stuck with the right order, just in case, rather than tell a story that might be medically impossible and thus tip them off that she's lying about the intruders?

Picture: In the seconds before the 'dropped' camera, he's already down and she took a picture of it (chest down only). I cant see her stabbing him once or more times and then taking the time to snap a pic of it when by then he'd be reacting. I can see her shooting him in the head and assuming she killed him, then taking a picture of her handiwork before she realized, "oh carp, he's moving/groaning/alive!" followed by dropping the camera (ceiling shot) and taking off. (per the ninja story - he may have begged for help and actually thought she'd gone to get some instead of going to get the knife)

Angle - horizontal and upward - he was standing for the chest wound. If we assume she attacked him in a sitting position and inflicted some of the other non fatal wounds, he'd have been able to put up a considerable fight (just imo, he'd win or at worst she'd have some serious injuries)

Gun: If she did make him sit with the threat of the gun, but used the knife to first attack, she'd have had to fight him off with both hands occupied, and likely would've used the gun at that time anyway.

SINK I can think of no scenario that could result in him staggering to the sink and turning his back on her after/during being stabbed. Assuming she did attack him
with the knife in the shower, this would mean he managed to get up - thus his injuries were not incapacitating, so he'd have struggled with her - or tried to run (fight or
flight) not further corner himself by moving in the direction of the sink, and worse - turning his back on her.

Trajectory - if the gunshot is last, she'd have had to have propped his body up against a wall or something I would image difficult if not impossible in that condition, then stepped a few feet away -or- laid down on the floor even with his body, back and to the left a few feet away(no stippling) Both seem unlikely to me.

You have convinced this sleuth that the gun was used first! The perp was a poor shot and fired again but the gun jammed. He's still alive! The gun is now useless so she resorts to the knife. She has to annihilate her wounded victim to ensure that he does not survive to possibly tell what she just did. So she stabs him viciously and repeatedly because she has to make sure he's as dead as a door nail. She could even be thinking, "Look what you are making me do! You brought this stabbing on yourself because you didn't die when I shot you. This is all your fault."

 

[LambChop]

Oh, I have some more. This is from the doctor's testimony during cross with JW:

Doctor: "People w/injuries to their brains they are not incapacitated - having something going thru brain - it had to have passed thru the brain, skull is perforated where the brain is. It had to have passed thru the brain, passed thru right frontal lobe - it had to pass thru the brain, a hole into the skull and exit from skull cavity into the face. There is no way it could have avoided the brain."JW: You are sure of that?
Doctor: Yes!

Just a note. Dr. Horn seemed to be quite agitated that JW just was not able to understand that. With the bullet landing in the left cheek I really don't see how it could be any other way. jmo

BBM: This was Dr. Horn's testimony. Can he be any clearer? Maybe the misunderstanding is not with the doctor because I certainly understand it. I also understood the doctor when addressing the stabbing issue under the Nervous System to mean there were no breaks in the lining of the brain due to the stabbing wounds to the head. So it appears he was speaking of one specific area.

I also heard Dr. Horn when he testified say that "other than previously mentioned wounds .........was intact." Can't remember what specifically he was addressing but I just remember him using that term. jmo

 

[RealityMan]

Exactly JA still did everything prior to the attack that makes it premeditation regardless of weapon used. Both theories are premeditated. Bringing a knife is the same as bringing a gun, and she did both. However I think the knife first is more heinous. That's the only difference. It doesn't risk a murder one charge with either theory.

Yes, but if the prosecution goes with the gun first theory, the prosecution cannot get the death penalty against JA if the jury somehow finds no premeditation.

With the knife first theory, the prosecution can get the death penalty under the alternative grounds of a heinous murder.

Correct?

 

[pip]

From the ME's testimony:



Can we agree that, based on the above, the ME has stated that TA may not have been immediately killed or incapacitated by the gunshot wound? If so, doesn't the ME leave open the possibility that the gunshot wound came first and TA could have been moving around for 1 minute and 46 seconds afterward?

I can agree that TA may not have been immediately incapacitated or killed if the GSW penetrated the frontal lobe, which it didn't, but I don't really think he is trying to leave the possibility open that the GSW came first. Listen to his testimony. One side of his mouth is saying, "I would be speculating to try to sequence the injuries", now listen to how many times the other side of his mouth keeps passively suggesting that the knife came first.

 

[molly333]

You don't know if it is common for MEs to retell the injury they have previously already reported in another section. that section could very well be the report of the examination of other structures other than the injury already discussed. Doctors are known for writing as little as possible because they are so busy. It clearly states the bullet entered the anterior fossa, repeating the same thing on further exam after he GSW is not really necessary. And that's why they call the ME to court to report on the findings. That autopsy report is the doctors notes and he interprets it, not random citizens. Otherwise a ME would never need to appear in court.

When the brain dies or decomposes the medical term for its disintegration is called liquefactive necrosis, hence the reason is sometimes called liquified and its also called soft. It is two well known descriptions when describing a dying brain... Again laymans thinking they know all things medical. *sigh

The autopsy report is not notes. It's a legal document. It tells the whole story, every detail.

Maybe for us laymen you can find where in the autopsy report he says the bullet penetrated the brain. You won't be able to find it because he doesn't say that. He says the dura mater was intact and there was no cerebral damage.

And, not only that, he says he took slides of brain matter and the slides showed no evidence of trauma.

There was never a bullet in the brain according to the autopsy report.

If she had walked away after the gunshot wound, Travis would be alive and well today with probably no physical impairments.

IMO

 

[LambChop]

I"m really trying to control my anger here, because you insult me.

The reason there was no bleeding is because according to the autopsy report there was no apparent cerebral injury.

In other words, for us laymen, the brain was not damaged.

Maybe what is missing is no apparent cerebral injury "in that area". Obviously Dr. Horn knew what his report said and understood it better than we do. He wrote it and he gave his testimony. The State agrees and it was accepted into evidence. Maybe it's just a matter of misinterpretation. jmo

 

[RealityMan]

Oh, I have some more. This is from the doctor's testimony during cross with JW:

Doctor: "People w/injuries to their brains they are not incapacitated - having something going thru brain - it had to have passed thru the brain, skull is perforated where the brain is. It had to have passed thru the brain, passed thru right frontal lobe - it had to pass thru the brain, a hole into the skull and exit from skull cavity into the face. There is no way it could have avoided the brain."
JW: You are sure of that?
Doctor: Yes!

Just a note. Dr. Horn seemed to be quite agitated that JW just was not able to understand that. With the bullet landing in the left cheek I really don't see how it could be any other way. jmo

Yes, and the ME also said the following:

Defense: And do you remember telling Detective Flores that you knew this because the gunshot wound would not have completely incapacitated somebody

ME: I don't recall saying that either

Defense: Is that something you think you would have never said to Detective Flores?

ME: I think I've said it here in court that I don't think it would immediately incapacitate him or kill him. But it would be a serious injury, but I don't recall telling Detective Flores that, no.

So even though the ME has stated that he believes the defensive injuries to the hands must have come before the gunshot wound, do you see how the ME has also left open the possibility that TA might have been shot first?

 

[LambChop]

The autopsy report is not notes. It's a legal document. It tells the whole story, every detail.

Maybe for us laymen you can find where in the autopsy report he says the bullet penetrated the brain. You won't be able to find it because he doesn't say that. He says the dura mater was intact and there was no cerebral damage.

And, not only that, he says he took slides of brain matter and the slides showed no evidence of trauma.

There was never a bullet in the brain according to the autopsy report.

If she had walked away after the gunshot wound, Travis would be alive and well today with probably no physical impairments.

IMO

But this would be your interpretation. We have not heard any ME disagree with what is in his report only speculation of which came first "the chicken, or the egg." Do we know if anyone ever solved that mystery??????