Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[LambChop]

Yes, and the ME also said the following:

I think we all agree with the second part.

 

[danzn16]

While searching for more information about the autopsy report on hlntv.com, I came across some interesting analysis by yet another pathologist, Dr. Carol Terry, who reviewed the autopsy report and concluded that the gun shot wound came first. See http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/01/22/what-really-killed-travis-alexander.

Some of her reasoning:

* The gun was fired from a few feet away. "If you've already stabbed him in the heart and slit his throat, why now back away and shoot him?"

* "If soon after receiving this gunshot wound, Mr. Alexander sustained a more significant injury that results in loss of blood, such as that cut across the neck or the stab wound of the heart, then there might not be a whole lot of blood flowing up to the head to allow more bleeding into those soft tissues."

I've already linked to this and explained why it is absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense. And she's basing everything off her own feelings and no evidence.

Glad my posts are getting read :/

 

[pip]

Oh, I have some more. This is from the doctor's testimony during cross with JW:

Doctor: "People w/injuries to their brains they are not incapacitated - having something going thru brain - it had to have passed thru the brain, skull is perforated where the brain is. It had to have passed thru the brain, passed thru right frontal lobe - it had to pass thru the brain, a hole into the skull and exit from skull cavity into the face. There is no way it could have avoided the brain."
JW: You are sure of that?
Doctor: Yes!

Just a note. Dr. Horn seemed to be quite agitated that JW just was not able to understand that. With the bullet landing in the left cheek I really don't see how it could be any other way. jmo

Yes I agree, Doc Horn was getting pretty agitated and testy when pressed about the GSW. He didn't have any forensic proof to offer to back up his statement. So he just expected her to rely on his word. Damn testy and uncomfortable, he was. It was like a dark cloud moved over head when the GSW part of his testimony came up. His demeanor went to pot. He was more confident and not agitated throughout the testimony of TA's other injuries. Did you happen to notice that?

 

[LambChop]

I've already linked to this and explained why it is absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense. And she's basing everything off her own feelings and no evidence.

Glad my posts are getting read :/

I think you have to deal with dead bodies to understand some of this material. Plus the doctor did have x-rays and you can see the path. Of the two reports, the written and the verbal in court, I have to go with the verbal because he dumbed it down for us so we could understand. jmo

 

[molly333]

But this would be your interpretation. We have not heard any ME disagree with what is in his report only speculation of which came first "the chicken, or the egg." Do we know if anyone ever solved that mystery??????

You're not answering my question.

Where in the autopsy report does he say the bullet penetrated the brain?

 

[danzn16]

Her analysis is based upon the scenario that the brain was actually hit with the bullet and as to why there may not be hemorrhaging found within the brain. Poor perfusion from a larger, immediate secondary hemorrhaging injury.. True that. In this case, with a non brain penetrating GSW, just facial trauma, if you look at the amount of blood at the sink, it looks like a lot and that he stood there for some time, but I believe it was a very short time. He would have been really bleeding and coughing out blood profusely from his vascular facial injuries, and a lot of blood was lost in a very short time. The knife must have been very close by and the stabbing must have commenced pretty quickly, as well as his effort to get away from her. The stabs to the back and then his heart came pretty quickly after he got to the sink, imo.

No she also believes that it went through the frontal lobe and she gives a reason why she thinks it could be possible for little blood to be in the brain and cranial cavity after this. She says if the carotids were cut immediately after the shot then this scenario may be plausible. But it's absolutely ridiculous because the brain would already be engorged with blood and it would still have the vertebral arteries and basilar artery supplying the brain from the posterior aspect of the body. The vertebral arteries supply 1/3 of blood to the brain and head. Her explanation for no blood in the cranial cavity with gun shot first is absolutely not physiologically possible and is embarrassing that a doctor came up with this scenario. There are many other things wrong with her theory that I have already covered in previous posts as well.

 

[LambChop]

Yes I agree, Doc Horn was getting pretty agitated and testy when pressed about the GSW. He didn't have any forensic proof to offer to back up his statement. So he just expected her to rely on his word. Damn testy and uncomfortable, he was. It was like a dark cloud moved over head when the GSW part of his testimony came up. His demeanor when to pot. He was more confident and not agitated throughout the testimony of TA's other injuries. Did you happen to notice that?

He appeared agitated because she kept insisting that the bullet did not go through his brain no matter how he explained it to her. She just didn't get it. My goodness I can't believe why that would upset him. lol

 

[geevee]

Yes, but if the prosecution goes with the gun first theory, the prosecution cannot get the death penalty against JA if the jury somehow finds no premeditation.

With the knife first theory, the prosecution can get the death penalty under the alternative grounds of a heinous murder.

Correct?

BBM
Sure they can if the jury believes she brought the gun she stole from her grandfather, I highly doubt they believe she did all the gymnastics in the closet without disturbing anything or that TA actually had a gun in the house at all. Premed right there.

 

[molly333]

Maybe what is missing is no apparent cerebral injury "in that area". Obviously Dr. Horn knew what his report said and understood it better than we do. He wrote it and he gave his testimony. The State agrees and it was accepted into evidence. Maybe it's just a matter of misinterpretation. jmo

No. He was talking about the whole brain.

No injury. No trauma.

If there had been an injury to the brain, he would have documented it in the autopsy report.

IMO

 

[danzn16]

And just for anyone who doesn't know medical terms, the dura mater is the tough membrane that surrounds the brain. If the dura mater is intact, you have not penetrated the brain.

From the autopsy report:


dura mater and falx cerebri are intact.


There's nothing to interpret. We can read English.

The frontal lobes were never penetrated.

IMO

You're quoting from a section after he already explained the gun show wound and resulting damage. He is discussing the other areas. And thanks, I do know what the dura mater and falx cerebri is lol

 

[LambChop]

You're not answering my question.

Where in the autopsy report does he say the bullet penetrated the brain?

"The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull' There you go....perforates means hole....anterior frontal skull......is your skull....okay, hole in skull with bullet travelling at the speed of sound. It's not rocket science. jmo

 

[LambChop]

You're quoting from a section after he already explained the gun show wound and resulting damage. He is discussing the other areas. And thanks, I do know what the dura mater and falx cerebri is lol

Okay. So we can be clear. If the doctor is talking about another weapon causing a wound or wounds to TA's scalp down to the skull level and maybe cutting into the skull area at a different location, does his description of the dura mater being in tact make sense if he is only specifically talking about that portion of his brain and the injuries to it???? Hope you can understand that.

 

[molly333]

Yes I agree, Doc Horn was getting pretty agitated and testy when pressed about the GSW. He didn't have any forensic proof to offer to back up his statement. So he just expected her to rely on his word. Damn testy and uncomfortable, he was. It was like a dark cloud moved over head when the GSW part of his testimony came up. His demeanor when to pot. He was more confident and not agitated throughout the testimony of TA's other injuries. Did you happen to notice that?

Having read the autopsy report, I think everything out of his mouth on the stand was....well, I probably can't use the word here.

Let's just say, I'm really disappointed.

IMO

 

[pip]

He appeared agitated because she kept insisting that the bullet did not go through his brain no matter how he explained it to her. She just didn't get it. My goodness I can't believe why that would upset him. lol

Gee, could that be because she has a copy of his written autopsy report which says just the opposite? She understood fine what he was saying, she was pressing him because what he was saying did not match his findings he documented in his report. It is really simple.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

8:00 a.m. - 12:13 p.m.: TA puts floor cleaner together and moves furniture off tile, receives text from Chris Hughes about evening conference call and texts back. TA then goes upstairs for a nap.

12:15 - 2:00 p.m. JA enters home

No, she got there when she says she did. She says they watched a youtube video and the internet history shows it was accessed at a little after 4am.

with purse containing gun and knife, duct taped together to conceal and prevent clanging together, finds TA alseep, places purse on end of bed, gets KY from purse and places it on bed, undresses and by hand or using timer she takes 6 pics of herself and then begins taking pictures of Travis. He wakes up - pic 1:47:15 (TA could not have taken the 1:44:00 pic of JA because 50 seconds later he is lying in bed apparently asleep and all of the time-stramped pics of her are before the pics of him).

Oh come on, he's not asleep. He has his eyes open and there's a KY bottle on the bed. He took those pictures. Guys like taking those kind of pictures. It's not unusual. We know he liked to take pictures of her from his own words. There is no plausible reason for her to take pictures on her own that she's only going to delete later.

 

[danzn16]

I'm gonna take a stab at this and guess that it is you that is more befitting of the "lay mans" title.
It can penetrate the anterior fossa without hitting the brain.. and it did. Dura Mater intact. End of story. 25 years in acute care as an RN including Trauma ICU, Med/Surg ICU and CVICU, and currently PACU (yes, including neurosurgery) makes me far cry from a "lay mans" or layman when it comes to understanding medical terms or interpreting a written MD's report. This is actually not that complicated as you think. If a layman understands simply what the Dura Mater is and that it is intact per his report, it answers the question of penetrating brain injury or not. In this case..clearly NOT. Now his verbal testimony is another story, it dramatically differs, but his original written autopsy report reads loud and clear. Nada.
No, I am not an MD, but it does not require an MD to understand a medical report. I read medical reports all day everyday...it is a necessary part of my job.

Then you know that the term layman is not an insult but only the name for regular language instead of medical terms. So we seem to be in disagreement. We had the unique opportunity to hear it from the doctor himself. Surely you can't say in all your years as a nurse you haven't came across a report written by a doctor that is confusing or you read it in a way different than what the doc meant? Other doctors have this exact problem reading a colleagues report sometimes. It seems your toes were stepped and I apologize for any hard feelings you have. However I think it's safe to say that most people interpreting this autopsy report are laymans and that's all I meant. There's no way you can know if the below section was discussing the entire brain or just regions that he had not already previously reported on. We heard it directly from him that the bullet went into the brain therefore I believe the ME. It was his report and exam after all.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

You have convinced this sleuth that the gun was used first! The perp was a poor shot and fired again but the gun jammed.

A shot in the head is not a poor shot. Go back to the sleuthing drawing board

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

This is what we are saying. His testimony did not agree with his own autopsy report. Plus, he also equivocated in his testimony.

IMO

Where did it disagree? Where did he equivocate?

 

[danzn16]

I"m really trying to control my anger here, because you insult me.

The reason there was no bleeding is because according to the autopsy report there was no apparent cerebral injury.

In other words, for us laymen, the brain was not damaged.

The term laymans is not an insult! It is a term used everyday by doctors. I don't know how this would insult anyone. Anyway I do apologize for your hurt feelings, that was not my intention. I am only stating that people are interpreting his report and thinking its wrong. When he is the one that wrote it in medical terms and also explained in court in laymans terms. That is why I think it doesn't make sense to some.

 

[molly333]

"The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull' There you go....perforates means hole....anterior frontal skull......is your skull....okay, hole in skull with bullet travelling at the speed of sound. It's not rocket science. jmo

Please read the whole sentence: [now I have to type it out again]



The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and

traverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial

hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury {although examination of the brain tissue is

somewhat limited by the decomposed nature of the remains).


In other words, he saw no damage to the brain.


Elsewhere, talking about the whole brain, he says the dura mater is intact and the brain slides show no trauma.

IMO