Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[pip]

Having read the autopsy report, I think everything out of his mouth on the stand was....well, I probably can't use the word here.

Let's just say, I'm really disappointed.

IMO

I really think he revoked his GSW first stamp of approval that he gave Flores because he regretted putting himself out on a limb. He stated he never speculates as to sequence...oops, but he did on this one, then denied it. I think it was a matter of safeguarding his professional credibility (self-preservation) that made him revoke his opinion, just in case things panned out in court differently. He took it even one step further and divorced the GSW first opinion completely because he knew that Flores had already spoken publicly about what he told him. He dropped it like a hot pancake. Now he wants to convey that he won't speculate as to sequence. Ahhh, safe and sound.

 

[pip]

Then you know that the term layman is not an insult but only the name for regular language instead of medical terms. So we seem to be in disagreement. We had the unique opportunity to hear it from the doctor himself. Surely you can't say in all your years as a nurse you haven't came across a report written by a doctor that is confusing or you read it in a way different than what the doc meant? Other doctors have this exact problem reading a colleagues report sometimes. It seems your toes were stepped and I apologize for any hard feelings you have. However I think it's safe to say that most people interpreting this autopsy report are laymans and that's all I meant. There's no way you can know if the below section was discussing the entire brain or just regions that he had not already previously reported on. We heard it directly from him that the bullet went into the brain therefore I believe the ME. It was his report and exam after all.

No hard feelings. The report is simple and clear... not a tough one to interpret at all. It is a murder case. The doc would document ALL details in the autopsy he found... the same as in ANY autopsy he did. He wasn't too busy to document what he found, he just documented exactly what he found. Nothing. An uninjured, non penetrated brain. Plain and simple.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I really think he revoked his GSW first stamp of approval that he gave Flores because he regretted putting himself out on a limb. He stated he never speculates as to sequence...oops, but he did on this one, then denied it. I think it was a matter of safeguarding his professional credibility (self-preservation) that made him revoke his opinion, just in case things panned out in court differently. He took it even one step further and divorced the GSW first opinion completely because he knew that Flores had already spoken publicly about what he told him. He dropped it like a hot pancake. Now he wants to convey that he won't speculate as to sequence. Ahhh, safe and sound.

I think all your speculation is just that, and it's malevolent speculation. You are so tied to your gun first theory that you are inventing conspiracy theories so it can work.

 

[molly333]

I really think he revoked his GSW first stamp of approval that he gave Flores because he regretted putting himself out on a limb. He stated he never speculates as to sequence...oops, but he did on this one, then denied it. I think it was a matter of safeguarding his professional credibility (self-preservation) that made him revoke his opinion, just in case things panned out in court differently. He took it even one step further and divorced the GSW first opinion completely because he knew that Flores had already spoken publicly about what he told him. He dropped it like a hot pancake. Now he wants to convey that he won't speculate as to sequence. Ahhh, safe and sound.

All that bleeding over the sink was coming from his nose and mouth in big drops as he stood over the sink--is that how you understand it?

And, then he coughs, sending out that spray mist behind the sink and on the mirror.

IMO

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

What do you think of the possibility that she did everything in the bathroom, but dragged him down the hall cause she actually thought she could get his dead body out of the house--realized she couldn't--and dragged him back into the shower?

I was toying with that, think she would have let his head rest on the carpet, and exhausted, realized she couldn't roll him up in a blanket and take him to the desert as she might have thought.

I know it would be daylight, but I heard of someone putting a dead body in a sewer in behind his neighborhood in broad daylight. Maybe she could have planned to back travis' car out and put hers in so she could load him, but she just wasn't strong enough.

Just a theory because I don't get why there's blood low on the wall on both sides of the hallway unless she's dragging him against the walls in one direction and then back down in another.

The stains are high enough to say he was partially mobile, crawling or crouched walking up to the carpet. The stains are on both sides, so I think it means some of it was when she dragged him back.

I also don't see how he had so much blood on his shoulder (from a neck gash IMO) but he appeared to be with Jodi in the middle of the corridor near the walls in that foot photo.

He's on his back in that picture.

 

[danzn16]

Sorry for all my typos etc. phone is autocorrecting like crazy

 

[pip]

I think all your speculation is just that, and it's malevolent speculation. You are so tied to your gun first theory that you are inventing conspiracy theories so it can work.

Not so. No conspiracy at all. He just decided to step back in from the limb and play it safe.

 

[pip]

All that bleeding over the sink was coming from his nose and mouth in big drops as he stood over the sink--is that how you understand it?

And, then he coughs, sending out that spray mist behind the sink and on the mirror.

IMO

Yes. I would imagine he had so much sinus bleeding he was sputtering and coughing with difficulty breathing as well. His airway would have been compromised with that much bleeding. I am sure that bullet passing thru his sinus cavity was very damaging and it is highly vascular, both arterial and venous.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I really think he revoked his GSW first stamp of approval that he gave Flores because he regretted putting himself out on a limb. He stated he never speculates as to sequence...oops, but he did on this one, then denied it. I think it was a matter of safeguarding his professional credibility (self-preservation) that made him revoke his opinion, just in case things panned out in court differently. He took it even one step further and divorced the GSW first opinion completely because he knew that Flores had already spoken publicly about what he told him. He dropped it like a hot pancake. Now he wants to convey that he won't speculate as to sequence. Ahhh, safe and sound.

I don't think that is true. He never put himself out on a limb. He was never asked about which came first by anyone until later on when he was deposed by the DT. At that time he clearly said the gunshot was last.

IMO

 

[LambChop]

Please read the whole sentence: [now I have to type it out again]



The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and

traverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial

hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury {although examination of the brain tissue is

somewhat limited by the decomposed nature of the remains).


In other words, he saw no damage to the brain.


Elsewhere, talking about the whole brain, he says the dura mater is intact and the brain slides show no trauma.

IMO

Because the frontal lobe was liquid. You can't determine injuries when there is nothing intact to examine. What he found within the material was unremarkable.....no bullet fragments, etc. His evaluation is based on where the bullet entered the skull, where it left the skull and where it ended up. That determines the path if there were no deflective bones in the way. It appears to be a clear path to the cheek after passing through the frontal lobe. You can see for yourself on the x-rays. If the report is hard to understand he explains it in court. JW wanted the doctor to tell her what she interpreted from his report and she wanted him to say he could have been shot first and been able to attack Jodi because the bullet never entered the brain. Dr. Horn then explained that it was not possible to bypass the frontal lobe. JW just wanted the doctor to confirm that he could have attacked Jodi after she shot him. jmo

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I'm glad you brought this issue up. Trying to pinpoint the location and position of the camera in the last two photos as well as what is captured in the photos raises very interesting possibilities as to what was transpiring just 1 minute and 46 seconds after the last shower shot of TA.

I think there is general agreement that JA accidentally took the bathroom ceiling shot while she was still holding the camera in her right hand.

How then does the camera end up at the end of the hallway to take the next photo, just 62 seconds later, after JA has administered 27 stab wounds, including the fatal neck slash?

Probably kicked or, less likely, she did hold it the entire time till she reached the end of the hallway. Travis may have pushed it even when he was crawling.

Some posters have said the camera was on the ground and upside down when these photos were taken. I've searched for testimony to that effect, but I haven't found it. Can somebody point me to testimony where the position of the camera in the last two photos is discussed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZkqVwCbgtA#t=45m20s

And for a demonstration of the camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZkqVwCbgtA#t=112m53s

I also heard there was some testimony from detective Flores suggesting the bathroom ceiling photo was taking from approximately waist height, but I wasn't able to verify that testimony either.

Melendez testified on this at about 1:18 above.

I just don't see how it can be that the camera was on the ground when either of the last two photos are taken. In the first bleeding shot, the photo is at an angle. Wouldn't the photo be square to the floor if the camera was resting on the floor?

No, because of the shape of the camera. The top isn't flat.

Also, the photo just seems have been taken from too high off of the floor for the camera to have been resting on the floor when this photo was taken.

In the attachment below, look at the reenactment photo taken from the floor compared to the original camera photo. The bodies are the same proportions.

She'd need very long arms to be holding the camera that low.

I just don't think it's possible that the camera ended up getting kicked down the hallway during the stabbing and then just happenned to be apparently oriented in the direction that JA was facing when she accidentally activated the button in the last two photos.

I'm sure she wishes it hadn't happened that way, but it did.

 

[LambChop]

All that bleeding over the sink was coming from his nose and mouth in big drops as he stood over the sink--is that how you understand it?

And, then he coughs, sending out that spray mist behind the sink and on the mirror.

IMO

Coughing up blood is also a sign of a chest wound.

 

[molly333]

Yes. I would imagine he had so much sinus bleeding he was sputtering and coughing with difficulty breathing as well. His airway would have been compromised with that much bleeding. I am sure that bullet passing thru his sinus cavity was very damaging and it is highly vascular, both arterial and venous.

So the bullet entered the sinus cavity through the inside of skull and lodged in his cheek? Or do you think he was pretty much shot right in the sinus cavity?

The fact that it didn't exit the cheek also shows the low velocity nature of it, wouldn't you say?

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

ME transcript:

Trajectory of bullet - coming in from right hand side heading left - it may have been deflected by the bone - cheek may not have been trajectory originally

Scalp wounds do bleed. Head wound just above the forehead in a living person would bleed alot. If the wound happened at the time TA was living - we would have seen a lot of blood. Depending on when he was cut and how much blood loss from other wounds.

In abstract sense without all of the blood loss -

Had TA been alive would there been blood in his mouth? Not in the oral cavity lodged in the cheekbone connected by the sinus.

3 specific injury could have led to death. . . stab wound to chest - slit of throat and shot to the head rapidly fatal.

projectile going thru front of brain - lose consciousness and then go down

Slashing of the throat - it is most severe injury - most bleedng from jugular

Most fatal - chest? middle - significant injury it would cause death without med attn but not loss conscious immediate

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I don't think that is true. He never put himself out on a limb. He was never asked about which came first by anyone until later on when he was deposed by the DT. At that time he clearly said the gunshot was last.

IMO

Right, this wasn't surprise testimony. Both sides knew he was going to say this. JM was making points about the clean shell casing on blood before Horn even testified.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

So the bullet entered the sinus cavity through the inside of skull and lodged in his cheek? Or do you think he was pretty much shot right in the sinus cavity?

The fact that it didn't exit the cheek also shows the low velocity nature of it, wouldn't you say?

IMO

It slowed down because it just into and back out of his SKULL.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

So the bullet entered the sinus cavity through the inside of skull and lodged in his cheek? Or do you think he was pretty much shot right in the sinus cavity?

The fact that it didn't exit the cheek also shows the low velocity nature of it, wouldn't you say?

IMO

It still doesn't show the velocity upon entry or during or the trajectory path before it finally slowed down and landed in the cheek bone.

IMO

 

[pip]

Coughing up blood is also a sign of a chest wound.

Yes, this is true. I just don't believe that is what caused this bleeding at the sink. He would have been attempting to run out the door to get away from her and to get help if this was his initial wound, not standing in front of the mirror..He can see his chest without a mirror. If you think part of your face was just shot off that is the first place I would go to see how bad the injury is. Know what i'm saying? JMO.

 

[molly333]

Coughing up blood is also a sign of a chest wound.

If you look in the sink, there are these huge drops of blood just falling into the sink and the edge of the sink. You can almost see his head bent over the sink and blood pouring out of his mouth and nose.

That's coming from a seriously bleeding wound [the head wound], it's not coughed up blood..

The coughed blood is the mist behind the sink and on the mirror.

IMO

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

And your point is? Yep. I read it thoroughly. It entered above the right eyebrow on the anterior frontal skull, went down to the left via right anterior fossa, thru his sinus cavity and lodged in the left maxillary bone. Dura intact. No cerebral injuries. The bullet missed his brain. Amazing, huh? Not really.

Yes, it would be amazing, Look at a skull diagram and explain how a bullet can go through the frontal skull right above the eyebrow and exit through the fossa and miss the brain.